In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : It remains on my Bucket List, Alan, to rev up the PLO action. Won't be this month, fo sho, as I need to focus on volume & points to see if I can make Prio profitably. One problem, of course, is that I would split the PLO8 traffic between PLO & PLO8, then we'd end up with neither being any good, instead of just one, as at present. They'd sort of cannibalise each other, in much the same way as the PLO8 BH MTT's have split the liquidity. In "Live" terms, my competence (or lack of) at PLO is much the same as at PLO8, I enjoy both, & have had a modicum of success at both in the Live arena, including the WSOP, where I cashed in both formats last year. So I do love PLO. Posted by Tikay10
Totally agree with this. I can see it being a tricky one then to find a good balance. It just intrigues me why PLO on this site has very little traffic compared to others (imo).
Congrats on getting your brags in from WSOP after I gave you that tap in too
Gill has been down this weekend, so barely played any poker, but here's where I am with Project Prio after a few days of minimal activity. Will be returning to normal action as of tonight.
Points earned so far in February - 6,768.
Points per day required to reach 10,000 by month end - 323 per day.
The increased amount of available games is stunning.
It can take a week - literally - to get 6 £10 games running in PLO8. If I jump across to the NLH Lobby, I can be playing 6 x £10 games (6 is my preferred maximum number of tables) in less than 5 minutes. Literally.
And if I fancy the occasional £15, £20 or even £33, no problem, they run every day. The biggest game at the PLO8 version is £15, & less than 10 run in an entire month.
I wish this were not so, I'd quite happily stick to O8, & be guaranteed a profit, but I am not prepared to sit here & just play 15 games in 3 or 4 hours.
So for now, it's mix & match, I'll play both, but never at the same time.
The game has moved on so much - or so I'm told - in the last 8 or 10 years, & I've not studied, watched any coaching vids, & I've never looked at a Hand History or "reviewed a session" in my life.
My only efforts at self-improvement at NLH has been to listen to good advice from a few friends who have been helping me - special mention to The Grumpy One.
That apart, I have trusted my instincts, & my game has been based on 2 aspects in particular;
1) Position.
Playing good position makes life so much easier. Playing OOP is so much more difficult.
2) Bet Sizing
I really struggled with this at first, especially as I had been exclusively playing Pot Limit games for the last 8 years. I'm getting there now though. It's important not to over stretch myself with the opening bet, as, in most cases, a probing c-bet is required, & if the opening bet is too big, ditto the c-bet, & it all gets a bit awkward.
Same mix as in all poker, good, bad & all stops in between.
There does seem to be more "really bad" plyers in NLH though. But the better players are really good & have a considerable advantage.
There seems to be more bad losers too, though maybe its just in proportion to a much bigger player base. Some really fruity & nasty chat box comments have been seen, always, of course, from losers.
Lots of the better players have encouraged me, & reached out with advice though, which is really rather nice.
Am definitely improving rapidly now, a little bit more improvement & I'm nearly there.
On Wednesday of this week I played a 15 game session, all at £10 & £15, & won 13 of them for a £100 profit. I just ran good - very good.
On Saturday 10th of February, just over a week ago, I played a 20 game session almost all at £20 & £33, & managed to lose £141. Felt like a win, too, after being £200 down on the session early doors. They were the softest games you could ever wish to see at £20 & £33, but I just ran ridiculously under expected EV. It was comical the variety of ways I was getting beat. I'd play those same tables, with the same players any night & turn a profit.
Mixing in a few MTTs or just SnG's for now Tikay? Posted by gazza127
Just DYM's, Gazza, & no plans to go down the MTT route. I don't particularly enjoy the brutal variance of MTT's. Even a very good player - & I'm most certainly not that at NLH - can go scores of MTT's without a decent cash.
I play the game for fun, & I don't find losing frequently much fun, to be honest. Some of the MTT Diaries we used to see on here made very sad reading.
Oddly, every year I go to Vegas & play MTT's & Cash, usually 15 or 20 MTT's & cash on nights when I bust early, & I love that to bits, & cope just fine with the variance, though I think I tend to run good in Vegas. It's mostly O8 & Big O though, where I know, up to a point, what I am doing.
I'm actually thinking of playing a few small NLH Events in Vegas this year, perhaps a few small WSOP NLH Events. Probably not a wise move......
Regarding 'position', I couldn't agree more. I have understood this is an important factor for quite a while but the more I play the more I realise just how immensely important it is.
In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : Just DYM's, Gazza, & no plans to go down the MTT route. I don't particularly enjoy the brutal variance of MTT's. Even a very good player - & I'm most certainly not that at NLH - can go scores of MTT's without a decent cash. I play the game for fun, & I don't find losing frequently much fun, to be honest. Some of the MTT Diaries we used to see on here made very sad reading. Oddly, every year I go to Vegas & play MTT's & Cash, usually 15 or 20 MTT's & cash on nights when I bust early, & I love that to bits, & cope just fine with the variance, though I think I tend to run good in Vegas. It's mostly O8 & Big O though, where I know, up to a point, what I am doing. I'm actually thinking of playing a few small NLH Events in Vegas this year, perhaps a few small WSOP NLH Events. Probably not a wise move...... Posted by Tikay10
Yeah the variance can be pretty brutal on MTT's. I've recently just had my biggest ever downswing. It doesn't fill you up with confidence - thats for sure. Mine is probably down to my drastic increase in stakes though as i'm more 'life rolled' at the moment I can afford to have a bit of a punt... just as long as it doesnt continue too long!
RE bold - sounds pretty good to me. I've got like 7224 weddings to attend this summer (or it seems like it), so I wont be able to get to Vegas for the WSOP, however i'm really trying to put together a plan to get there next year for my first WSOP.
I just had a look at my Sharky for MTT's Only, though I've not played any for many years.
£1,029 down after 826 games, ave stake £13, so that's not good, & I've become very much a bankroll nit, so I don't really want to go back down that route.
If I can improve considerably at NLH, then yeah, maybe I'll give them a spin, but for now, I think I'll just accept I'm not good enough.
I'm told that Matt Bates fella gets the lot, be nice to give him the occasional black eye though. Oh yes.
The easy part of Project Prio is going to be the 10,000 points - I'm very confident I can do that, just 2,700 left to get now.
The key thing, though, & very much harder, is to do it profitably.
With just £107 profit in the month so far, this might be touch & go. Anyway, we'll, see.
Last week was OK - 2,434 points, & a profit of £236.64.
It's SO swingy though. I played a late afternoon session yesterday & it went horrendously, barely won a hand. (£10, P22, W14, £20 P8 W1). Despite drawing the game count 15-15, I lost an eye-watering £98, as the "mix" of games I won/lost was all wrong.
After a brief foray hanging around the PLO8 lobby - just 3 games in an hour & a £6 loss (played badly), I moved back to NLH & had a cracking session, winning 10 from 13. (£20, P1, W1, £15, P1, W1, £10 P11, W8) for a profit of £70.50, wiping out most of the losses from the afternoon session.
Looks like it will be "fasten your seat belts" this week, & just hope I'm good enough to be the right side of variance.
Managed - with some difficulty - to find my calling boots last night, but I got a right telling off from some guy.
We were still 5 handed @ 200-400, so it's getting well shovey now, & my man, playing 1,200 (I had 2,900) shoved on me. He'd been shoving way too much, it seemed to me, so I looked him up, with clenched cheeks I might add, with A-7, & I held against his optimistic 9-2.
All standard stuff, I'd say, but then he gave me a bit of a telling off "wow, VERY loose call".
Not wrong mate, but I was half tempted to reply "pretty loose shove, too".
But I am not here to bicker with bad losers, so I just said "ul m8".......
Loose call indeed. You should see the calls that Timmy fella makes against me. Scandalous really.
Managed - with some difficulty - to find my calling boots last night, but I got a right telling off from some guy. We were still 5 handed @ 200-400, so it's getting well shovey now, & my man, playing 1,200 (I had 2,900) shoved on me. He'd been shoving way too much, it seemed to me, so I looked him up, with clenched cheeks I might add, with A-7, & I held against his optimistic 9-2. All standard stuff, I'd say, but then he gave me a bit of a telling off "wow, VERY loose call". Not wrong mate, but I was half tempted to reply "pretty loose shove, too". But I am not here to bicker with bad losers, so I just said "ul m8"....... Loose call indeed. You should see the calls that Timmy fella makes against me. Scandalous really. Posted by Tikay10
He'll call with suited ra-ras and win, that one
A7 loose? You're supposed to fold more than 85% of hands there, then?
In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : Fabulous question, Matt. On balance, no, not really, Some players have worked at their game & improved, others are unchanged. I'm not really sure if the overall standard has changed much tbh. Some really competent players, & some not so hot. The PLO8 liquidity has not reduced overall imo, it's just started to split between DYM's & MTT's - the reduction in DYM volume exactly coincides with the new PLO8 BH MTT's. There's not enough liquidity for both. Posted by Tikay10
Compared with 2011, PL08 DYM are way tougher. Lots of long term players now understand that surviving to the bubble is imperative, and that shoving wide @~3-5BB to survive is also a must.
The sum of Av ROI must equal -10%. If 5-6 evenly matched players sit there no edge, and even a few % edge is eaten by the rake.
PL08 Ts are much easier, mainly because a lot of the field play quite badly in simple poker terms (eg: bet sizes, position, GAP effect to mention a few). OFC its low stakes.
In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : Just DYM's, Gazza, & no plans to go down the MTT route. I don't particularly enjoy the brutal variance of MTT's. Even a very good player - & I'm most certainly not that at NLH - can go scores of MTT's without a decent cash. I play the game for fun, & I don't find losing frequently much fun, to be honest. Some of the MTT Diaries we used to see on here made very sad reading. Oddly, every year I go to Vegas & play MTT's & Cash, usually 15 or 20 MTT's & cash on nights when I bust early, & I love that to bits, & cope just fine with the variance, though I think I tend to run good in Vegas. It's mostly O8 & Big O though, where I know, up to a point, what I am doing. I'm actually thinking of playing a few small NLH Events in Vegas this year, perhaps a few small WSOP NLH Events. Probably not a wise move...... Posted by Tikay10
Yes MTT's are brutal and bad runs are frequent and can be long, I went through all of 2015 in a downswing and came through the other side. So when you are feeling depressed after a 3 month bad run, just remember this is normal and to be expected.
Comments
Gill has been down this weekend, so barely played any poker, but here's where I am with Project Prio after a few days of minimal activity. Will be returning to normal action as of tonight.
Points earned so far in February - 6,768.
Points per day required to reach 10,000 by month end - 323 per day.
Profit/loss on Month to date - £93 profit.
A few Bullet Points will follow, as to this attempted transition from PLO8 to NLH, a game I've not really played for 6 or 8 years.
The increased amount of available games is stunning.
It can take a week - literally - to get 6 £10 games running in PLO8. If I jump across to the NLH Lobby, I can be playing 6 x £10 games (6 is my preferred maximum number of tables) in less than 5 minutes. Literally.
And if I fancy the occasional £15, £20 or even £33, no problem, they run every day. The biggest game at the PLO8 version is £15, & less than 10 run in an entire month.
I wish this were not so, I'd quite happily stick to O8, & be guaranteed a profit, but I am not prepared to sit here & just play 15 games in 3 or 4 hours.
So for now, it's mix & match, I'll play both, but never at the same time.
The game has moved on so much - or so I'm told - in the last 8 or 10 years, & I've not studied, watched any coaching vids, & I've never looked at a Hand History or "reviewed a session" in my life.
My only efforts at self-improvement at NLH has been to listen to good advice from a few friends who have been helping me - special mention to The Grumpy One.
That apart, I have trusted my instincts, & my game has been based on 2 aspects in particular;
1) Position.
Playing good position makes life so much easier. Playing OOP is so much more difficult.
2) Bet Sizing
I really struggled with this at first, especially as I had been exclusively playing Pot Limit games for the last 8 years. I'm getting there now though. It's important not to over stretch myself with the opening bet, as, in most cases, a probing c-bet is required, & if the opening bet is too big, ditto the c-bet, & it all gets a bit awkward.
The players,
Same mix as in all poker, good, bad & all stops in between.
There does seem to be more "really bad" plyers in NLH though. But the better players are really good & have a considerable advantage.
There seems to be more bad losers too, though maybe its just in proportion to a much bigger player base. Some really fruity & nasty chat box comments have been seen, always, of course, from losers.
Lots of the better players have encouraged me, & reached out with advice though, which is really rather nice.
There is a bill to be paid for re-learning NLH, & I've certainly paying it.
In December I lost £23 @ NLH, in January, much higher volume I lost £126 @ NLH, though this was offset by much higher rewards payments.
I'm a puny £100 or so up in February so far, excluding Rewards Payments, which are running at £50 or £60 per week.
Thing is, the results are very swingy & swongy, & I've had 2 sessions where I have lost in excess of £100.
So my self-confidence is extremely fragile.
Lose the first 3 or 4 games of a session & I feel I just can't play the game. Win the first 3 or 4 & I'm the greatest.
Odd thing, self-confidence.
So I'm not doing TOO bad.
Am definitely improving rapidly now, a little bit more improvement & I'm nearly there.
On Wednesday of this week I played a 15 game session, all at £10 & £15, & won 13 of them for a £100 profit. I just ran good - very good.
On Saturday 10th of February, just over a week ago, I played a 20 game session almost all at £20 & £33, & managed to lose £141. Felt like a win, too, after being £200 down on the session early doors. They were the softest games you could ever wish to see at £20 & £33, but I just ran ridiculously under expected EV. It was comical the variety of ways I was getting beat. I'd play those same tables, with the same players any night & turn a profit.
So the vagaries of variance remain alive & well.
I play the game for fun, & I don't find losing frequently much fun, to be honest. Some of the MTT Diaries we used to see on here made very sad reading.
Oddly, every year I go to Vegas & play MTT's & Cash, usually 15 or 20 MTT's & cash on nights when I bust early, & I love that to bits, & cope just fine with the variance, though I think I tend to run good in Vegas. It's mostly O8 & Big O though, where I know, up to a point, what I am doing.
I'm actually thinking of playing a few small NLH Events in Vegas this year, perhaps a few small WSOP NLH Events. Probably not a wise move......
Regarding 'position', I couldn't agree more. I have understood this is an important factor for quite a while but the more I play the more I realise just how immensely important it is.
Good luck
RE bold - sounds pretty good to me. I've got like 7224 weddings to attend this summer (or it seems like it), so I wont be able to get to Vegas for the WSOP, however i'm really trying to put together a plan to get there next year for my first WSOP.
I just had a look at my Sharky for MTT's Only, though I've not played any for many years.
£1,029 down after 826 games, ave stake £13, so that's not good, & I've become very much a bankroll nit, so I don't really want to go back down that route.
If I can improve considerably at NLH, then yeah, maybe I'll give them a spin, but for now, I think I'll just accept I'm not good enough.
I'm told that Matt Bates fella gets the lot, be nice to give him the occasional black eye though. Oh yes.
Points earned so far in February - 7,304.
Points per day required to reach 10,000 by month end - 300 per day.
Profit/loss on Month to date - £106.72 profit.
The easy part of Project Prio is going to be the 10,000 points - I'm very confident I can do that, just 2,700 left to get now.
The key thing, though, & very much harder, is to do it profitably.
With just £107 profit in the month so far, this might be touch & go. Anyway, we'll, see.
Last week was OK - 2,434 points, & a profit of £236.64.
It's SO swingy though. I played a late afternoon session yesterday & it went horrendously, barely won a hand. (£10, P22, W14, £20 P8 W1). Despite drawing the game count 15-15, I lost an eye-watering £98, as the "mix" of games I won/lost was all wrong.
After a brief foray hanging around the PLO8 lobby - just 3 games in an hour & a £6 loss (played badly), I moved back to NLH & had a cracking session, winning 10 from 13. (£20, P1, W1, £15, P1, W1, £10 P11, W8) for a profit of £70.50, wiping out most of the losses from the afternoon session.
Looks like it will be "fasten your seat belts" this week, & just hope I'm good enough to be the right side of variance.
Managed - with some difficulty - to find my calling boots last night, but I got a right telling off from some guy.
We were still 5 handed @ 200-400, so it's getting well shovey now, & my man, playing 1,200 (I had 2,900) shoved on me. He'd been shoving way too much, it seemed to me, so I looked him up, with clenched cheeks I might add, with A-7, & I held against his optimistic 9-2.
All standard stuff, I'd say, but then he gave me a bit of a telling off "wow, VERY loose call".
Not wrong mate, but I was half tempted to reply "pretty loose shove, too".
But I am not here to bicker with bad losers, so I just said "ul m8".......
Loose call indeed. You should see the calls that Timmy fella makes against me. Scandalous really.
A7 loose? You're supposed to fold more than 85% of hands there, then?
The sum of Av ROI must equal -10%. If 5-6 evenly matched players sit there no edge, and even a few % edge is eaten by the rake.
PL08 Ts are much easier, mainly because a lot of the field play quite badly in simple poker terms (eg: bet sizes, position, GAP effect to mention a few). OFC its low stakes.