In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : personally, I think where you say " they called" is the key-- surely it's a waste of time pot betting here when you know he'll call----- if you have to shove every flop--- shove pre innit?-- two chances?----- hi Tikay? ---good luck! Posted by oynutter
I have played a few PLO8 STTs but by no means would I call myself a good player, or even competent but there does seem to be a case for getting active very early in these rather than waiting for 'premium' hands as you can then build up good stack before the 'shove fest' stage.
There is no such thing as a huge favorite pre flop in PLO8, unlike holdem. So if we can avoid getting to the stage when we stand the chance of getting called as even a 60/40 favorite by an opponent who has us covered then maybe we should?
Obviously building up a big stack early on is often easier said than done but sometimes these calling stations seem to do it!
Love it, keep it coming guys, I'm playing tonight but I'll reply to everyone in the morning.
Thought for the day.......
I've steadily made money, week after week, month after month, & reported every single day. I guess it's pretty boring to read. But then, one day, I do a bunch of money, & the Diary goes BOOM! & springs to life. And all good, solid, constructed, well-intentioned stuff.
In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : I do agree with you that in general we should be trying to get the money in with better hands...buuut, that doesnt take into account ICM. If we know we are 60% fav in a hand, then should we go all in with 4 left in a DYM, when folding would also leave us a resonable chance of cashing? I dont think the answer is yes in every scenario. In my example above, we have 58.5% equity vs the villains hand http://www.allinpokerodds.com/index.php?gametype=omahahilo&hand%5B0%5D=ackd4c5h&hand%5B1%5D=2s3s4djh&hand%5B2%5D=&hand%5B3%5D=&hand%5B4%5D=&board=&nsimulations=5000&task=process so by potting it pre, we are basically committing ourself to the pot, and therefor give ourselves a 41.5% chance of not cashing. I guess we just have to figure out is checking our option increases or decreases the chance of not cashing... If we deem our opponent to be weak post flop, I think it may actually increase our chance of cashing?? EDIT - Im definately not saying this should always be how you play it... but I never even considered it as an option until now... Posted by chicknMelt
Just one reply for now, because this one set me thinking. But I think you have missed something.
Where does MOST of my profit arise from? I'll tell you, & this happens again & again. Sometimes it fails, but mostly this is where the gains arise.
It's, say, Level 4, & we find good Aces in good position, with 2 Limpers in already. We POT it, the BB comes along too, & so do both of the Larry Limpers. Good, we are 4 way to the flop.
What range of hands do you think these guys have?
I'll tell you. LOW drawing hands. They want to catch a low-flop.
The flop arrives.....
Q-9-10
They all check, we POT it, they all fold. Even Sally Station can't call on that flop with 2-4-5 in her hand.
Honestly, its that straightforward.
Now, if this flop comes......
7-5-3
Then we MUST give up, there & then. It'll be 2 pair city, & with a made low, they'll never fold, & now (unless we keep 2 or more callers) we are trying to win HALF the pot. That's of no interest to me.
So, ICM & all that stuff, I'm not convinced it allows for that, very very profitable, scenario. If we limp in, we lose all that profit.
One possible explanation for last night's debacle was that I was perhaps a bit gung-ho & adrenelin filled, & was still in pot-pot-pot mode on part or all low flops.
Food for thought Mr Melty, yes, no, stop talking out of your rear orifice Mr Kendall?
I enjoyed this evenings play, although I only played 3. Can you give me some feedback on a hand we played ? Hand ID
#736616338
Sorry I don't know how to post it properly. 3 players before me (including you) were limping and I had top FH, I potted it hoping for more than one caller, sadly only you called with the nut low, hence we split it and only made a small profit. Should I have raised less? I know with the benefit of hindsight I should.
Hi Tikay I enjoyed this evenings play, although I only played 3. Can you give me some feedback on a hand we played ? Hand ID #736616338 Sorry I don't know how to post it properly. 3 players before me (including you) were limping and I had top FH, I potted it hoping for more than one caller, sadly only you called with the nut low, hence we split it and only made a small profit. Should I have raised less? I know with the benefit of hindsight I should. Posted by Enut
Hi Enut. (Why that name, please?).
I've no idea how to find that hand in my hand histories, but no matter, I don't think you did much wrong, to be honest.
PLO & PLO8 are very different to NLH, & we see lots of Full Houses. They are ALWAYS "visible" (they need a paired board) so we rarely get paid, unless someomne has an under house.
In PLO8, of course, the parameters are totally confused by those drawing, or on, the low, & you are never going to get players off the "locked" nut low.
For this reason, if you flop it, & there are two low cards on the Flop, you MUST Pot it, to try & force them off, otherwise you are only ever going to get half the pot no matter what.
We split that hand, but you could never get more than you did, the way the hand played out.
Well the hoped rebound never arose, but I just about won the game Count 16-14, which resulted in a £4.50 loss on the day, but at least I steadied the ship. I had a scary first hour, too, losing 6 of the first 8, but it got better later & I finished with a proper rattle.
Loads of games going, & I rattled though 30 of them in under 4 hours.
I was making repeated silly mistakes though, & getting a bit cross with myself, so even though there were still games running, I drew stumps early.
Lovely atmo on the tables last night though, & it was a really enjoyable session.
I put a horrible beat on FCHD, which upset me for some reason, he is such a nice chap, & I played the hand bad, but rivered the miracle card to scoop.
In one DYM, I had noticed a "stranger" was potting every hand pre, time after time, but never geting called, so I girded my loin things & hoped I could find something to go to war with. Soon enough, I found A-K-K-2 double suited, facing a raise from my man. I Pot, he repots, etc, we get the lot in, & he turns up with 8-9-10-J. I bust him, & he mentions that I got lucky, so I say, "ul mate, that'd be a great hand in PLO, but it does not play well in PLO8". He then replies "yeah, but this IS PLO". Umm, no it's not mate.....
We once again saw some rather regrettable language in the chatbox from the same chap who abused me the previous day. This time he made, imo, a bad call when I potted it pre & he called with a Low Only hand. Personally, I think that is dreadful play, we can RAISE with Low Only hands pre, but calling is a no-no. IMO, of course. Anyway, the chatbox lit up with expletives, it was almost comical. Guess I'll not be getting an Xmas card from him this year.
In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : Hi Enut. (Why that name, please?). I've no idea how to find that hand in my hand histories, but no matter, I don't think you did much wrong, to be honest. PLO & PLO8 are very different to NLH, & we see lots of Full Houses. They are ALWAYS "visible" (they need a paired board) so we rarely get paid, unless someomne has an under house. In PLO8, of course, the parameters are totally confused by those drawing, or on, the low, & you are never going to get players off the "locked" nut low. For this reason, if you flop it, & there are two low cards on the Flop, you MUST Pot it, to try & force them off, otherwise you are only ever going to get half the pot no matter what. We split that hand, but you could never get more than you did, the way the hand played out. Posted by Tikay10
Enut is my surname (Tune) backwards, it's as simple as that. First name Paul by the way.
Thanks for the feedback, I was actually thinking that if I played it slower I could have kept more people in drawing to the low, or with made lows, and taken 1/2 of a much bigger 3 or 4 way pot, however often when trying that at cash PLO8 I would get outdrawn for the high too!
p.s. I have just read through Orford's laughingly titled 'build a bankroll' challenge. Whilst the 'who's the better player' debate was never in doubt I can also confirm that you win the 'who writes the better posts' competition by a country mile too. With Rich Orful playing at them I am sorely tempted to try the 5/10 holdem cash tables if it wasn't for the fact that I am truly bad at cash. (Only joking he won an MTT once didn't he?)
In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : Just one reply for now, because this one set me thinking. But I think you have missed something. Where does MOST of my profit arise from? I'll tell you, & this happens again & again. Sometimes it fails, but mostly this is where the gains arise. It's, say, Level 4, & we find good Aces in good position, with 2 Limpers in already. We POT it, the BB comes along too, & so do both of the Larry Limpers. Good, we are 4 way to the flop. What range of hands do you think these guys have? I'll tell you. LOW drawing hands. They want to catch a low-flop. The flop arrives..... Q-9-10 They all check, we POT it, they all fold. Even Sally Station can't call on that flop with 2-4-5 in her hand. Honestly, its that straightforward. Now, if this flop comes...... 7-5-3 Then we MUST give up, there & then. It'll be 2 pair city, & with a made low, they'll never fold, & now (unless we keep 2 or more callers) we are trying to win HALF the pot. That's of no interest to me. So, ICM & all that stuff, I'm not convinced it allows for that, Posted by Tikay10
Some interesting points...The assumption that people limp call with low hands drawing hands: I'm not sure it's as black and white as u make out...there are people that limp every hand, and there are some that do it occasionally. While I can see how the range of hands limped would be weighted towards the low draw hands, there are clearly players that will have a pretty much random hand. Judging by some of the hands you have discussed on here there seem to be plenty limp calling with random hands.
I think good aces in position is probably a good example of when not to do it, but maybe a slightly weaker hand and out of position.
In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : Some interesting points...The assumption that people limp call with low hands drawing hands: I'm not sure it's as black and white as u make out...there are people that limp every hand, and there are some that do it occasionally. While I can see how the range of hands limped would be weighted towards the low draw hands, there are clearly players that will have a pretty much random hand. Judging by some of the hands you have discussed on here there seem to be plenty limp calling with random hands. I think good aces in position is probably a good example of when not to do it, but maybe a slightly weaker hand and out of position. Posted by chicknMelt
I think that is mostly fair comment, Melty, though I feel the limpers are more liklely to have low drawing hands.
In these spots, if the flop comes 3 high cards, or even 2 high cards, then I c-bet, they almost always all fold.
I just think limping with Aces, especially in the 4 card game, is SO dangerous, anyone can catch 2 pair with spanners. We MUST learn to bin our Aces if the betting tells us we have a problem though.
Bad Aces I can even fold pre in the early stages, they are just so hard to play.
£8 profit in 2 days is not exactly setting the world on fire, but at least I've steadied the ship.
Only a short session on Sunday, as I was working, but I got a few games in.
Friday's session felt good, won 18-13, but the Game Count @ £11 was only 3-3, & that makes a huge difference, winning 4-2 instead of drawing 3-3 makes a big difference.
I'm still trying to work out if I've developed a few leaks, or it is just variance messing with me. Or even maybe it was variance where all the earlier profit came from.
Anyway, I need to run really good for the rest of January to make these numbers a bit more respectable, as this has not been a great month so far.
I only have 3 sessions left, as I'm working the Show on both Tuesday & Thursday, so I'll try & get big sessions tonight, Wednesday & Friday. I'd rather win a little more, & play a little less, if need be, as profit is the key, but I'm convinced we need volume to dilute variance.
We shall see.
See you on the Tables tonight, & I hope you all had a grand weekend.
PS - Am starting my thrice annual diet today, need to lose half a stone in 3 weeks. I can guarantee I will. Anyone wanna bet I don't?
Comments
There is no such thing as a huge favorite pre flop in PLO8, unlike holdem. So if we can avoid getting to the stage when we stand the chance of getting called as even a 60/40 favorite by an opponent who has us covered then maybe we should?
Obviously building up a big stack early on is often easier said than done but sometimes these calling stations seem to do it!
Just some thoughts, feel free to shoot me down.
Love it, keep it coming guys, I'm playing tonight but I'll reply to everyone in the morning.
Thought for the day.......
I've steadily made money, week after week, month after month, & reported every single day. I guess it's pretty boring to read. But then, one day, I do a bunch of money, & the Diary goes BOOM! & springs to life. And all good, solid, constructed, well-intentioned stuff.
What an amazing thing human nature is, eh?
Where does MOST of my profit arise from? I'll tell you, & this happens again & again. Sometimes it fails, but mostly this is where the gains arise.
It's, say, Level 4, & we find good Aces in good position, with 2 Limpers in already. We POT it, the BB comes along too, & so do both of the Larry Limpers. Good, we are 4 way to the flop.
What range of hands do you think these guys have?
I'll tell you. LOW drawing hands. They want to catch a low-flop.
The flop arrives.....
Q-9-10
They all check, we POT it, they all fold. Even Sally Station can't call on that flop with 2-4-5 in her hand.
Honestly, its that straightforward.
Now, if this flop comes......
7-5-3
Then we MUST give up, there & then. It'll be 2 pair city, & with a made low, they'll never fold, & now (unless we keep 2 or more callers) we are trying to win HALF the pot. That's of no interest to me.
So, ICM & all that stuff, I'm not convinced it allows for that, very very profitable, scenario. If we limp in, we lose all that profit.
One possible explanation for last night's debacle was that I was perhaps a bit gung-ho & adrenelin filled, & was still in pot-pot-pot mode on part or all low flops.
Food for thought Mr Melty, yes, no, stop talking out of your rear orifice Mr Kendall?
See you on the Tables later.
PS to Melty - I've never sen a PLO8 Odds Calculator befote, wowzer!
Not sure how useful it is to me, but jolly interesting.
I enjoyed this evenings play, although I only played 3. Can you give me some feedback on a hand we played ? Hand ID
#736616338
Sorry I don't know how to post it properly. 3 players before me (including you) were limping and I had top FH, I potted it hoping for more than one caller, sadly only you called with the nut low, hence we split it and only made a small profit. Should I have raised less? I know with the benefit of hindsight I should.
I've no idea how to find that hand in my hand histories, but no matter, I don't think you did much wrong, to be honest.
PLO & PLO8 are very different to NLH, & we see lots of Full Houses. They are ALWAYS "visible" (they need a paired board) so we rarely get paid, unless someomne has an under house.
In PLO8, of course, the parameters are totally confused by those drawing, or on, the low, & you are never going to get players off the "locked" nut low.
For this reason, if you flop it, & there are two low cards on the Flop, you MUST Pot it, to try & force them off, otherwise you are only ever going to get half the pot no matter what.
We split that hand, but you could never get more than you did, the way the hand played out.
Friday 24th January
Played 30
Won 16
Lost 14
Split....
£2.25 - Played 0, won 0, Lost 0
£5.50 - Played 21, won 11, lost 10
£11.00 - Played 9, won 5, Lost 4
PROFIT/LOSS on Day £4.50
PROFIT/LOSS per game £0.15
REWARD POINTS = 195
BANKROLL at close of Play = £926.06
REWARD POINTS at close of play = 2,770 (= £27.70)
January to date....
Played 433
Won 234
Lost 201
Win-rate, January, 54.04%
PROFIT/LOSS in December, £68.57
Profit/Loss per game = £0.16
Well the hoped rebound never arose, but I just about won the game Count 16-14, which resulted in a £4.50 loss on the day, but at least I steadied the ship. I had a scary first hour, too, losing 6 of the first 8, but it got better later & I finished with a proper rattle.
Loads of games going, & I rattled though 30 of them in under 4 hours.
I was making repeated silly mistakes though, & getting a bit cross with myself, so even though there were still games running, I drew stumps early.
Lovely atmo on the tables last night though, & it was a really enjoyable session.
I put a horrible beat on FCHD, which upset me for some reason, he is such a nice chap, & I played the hand bad, but rivered the miracle card to scoop.
In one DYM, I had noticed a "stranger" was potting every hand pre, time after time, but never geting called, so I girded my loin things & hoped I could find something to go to war with. Soon enough, I found A-K-K-2 double suited, facing a raise from my man. I Pot, he repots, etc, we get the lot in, & he turns up with 8-9-10-J. I bust him, & he mentions that I got lucky, so I say, "ul mate, that'd be a great hand in PLO, but it does not play well in PLO8". He then replies "yeah, but this IS PLO". Umm, no it's not mate.....
We once again saw some rather regrettable language in the chatbox from the same chap who abused me the previous day. This time he made, imo, a bad call when I potted it pre & he called with a Low Only hand. Personally, I think that is dreadful play, we can RAISE with Low Only hands pre, but calling is a no-no. IMO, of course. Anyway, the chatbox lit up with expletives, it was almost comical. Guess I'll not be getting an Xmas card from him this year.
PS - Have a lovely Saturday.
Thanks for the feedback, I was actually thinking that if I played it slower I could have kept more people in drawing to the low, or with made lows, and taken 1/2 of a much bigger 3 or 4 way pot, however often when trying that at cash PLO8 I would get outdrawn for the high too!
p.s. I have just read through Orford's laughingly titled 'build a bankroll' challenge. Whilst the 'who's the better player' debate was never in doubt I can also confirm that you win the 'who writes the better posts' competition by a country mile too. With Rich Orful playing at them I am sorely tempted to try the 5/10 holdem cash tables if it wasn't for the fact that I am truly bad at cash. (Only joking he won an MTT once didn't he?)
In these spots, if the flop comes 3 high cards, or even 2 high cards, then I c-bet, they almost always all fold.
I just think limping with Aces, especially in the 4 card game, is SO dangerous, anyone can catch 2 pair with spanners. We MUST learn to bin our Aces if the betting tells us we have a problem though.
Bad Aces I can even fold pre in the early stages, they are just so hard to play.
Saturday 25th January
Played 31
Won 18
Lost 13
Split....
£2.25 - Played 0, won 0, Lost 0
£5.50 - Played 25, won 15, lost 10
£11.00 - Played 6, won 3, Lost 3
PROFIT/LOSS on Day £6.50
PROFIT/LOSS per game £0.21
REWARD POINTS = 180
BANKROLL at close of Play = £932.56
REWARD POINTS at close of play = 2,955 (= £29.55)
Sunday 26th January
Played 7
Won 4
Lost 3
Split....
£2.25 - Played 0, won 0, Lost 0
£5.50 - Played 7, won 4, lost 3
£11.00 - Played 0, won 0, Lost 0
PROFIT/LOSS on Day £1.50
PROFIT/LOSS per game £0.21
REWARD POINTS = 35
BANKROLL at close of Play = £934.06
REWARD POINTS at close of play = 2,990 (= £29.70)
January to date....
Played 471
Won 256
Lost 217
Win-rate, January, 54.35%
PROFIT/LOSS in December, £76.57
Profit/Loss per game = £0.16
£8 profit in 2 days is not exactly setting the world on fire, but at least I've steadied the ship.
Only a short session on Sunday, as I was working, but I got a few games in.
Friday's session felt good, won 18-13, but the Game Count @ £11 was only 3-3, & that makes a huge difference, winning 4-2 instead of drawing 3-3 makes a big difference.
I'm still trying to work out if I've developed a few leaks, or it is just variance messing with me. Or even maybe it was variance where all the earlier profit came from.
Anyway, I need to run really good for the rest of January to make these numbers a bit more respectable, as this has not been a great month so far.
I only have 3 sessions left, as I'm working the Show on both Tuesday & Thursday, so I'll try & get big sessions tonight, Wednesday & Friday. I'd rather win a little more, & play a little less, if need be, as profit is the key, but I'm convinced we need volume to dilute variance.
We shall see.
See you on the Tables tonight, & I hope you all had a grand weekend.
PS - Am starting my thrice annual diet today, need to lose half a stone in 3 weeks. I can guarantee I will. Anyone wanna bet I don't?