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Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey

DoubleAAADoubleAAA Member Posts: 954
edited October 2013 in The Poker Clinic

Villian had already 3bet me once earlier on, and I know that villian will shove almost 100% hands here as it's a good spot for him to shove and is aggro.  I have to call 1585 into a 2385 pot so I need 39.9% equity to call. Q8o vs atc is 53.6% and vs 70% im 48%.  Villian did not like it because I snap called him and said they're right what they said about you in the forum with flawed logic.This is an easy call for me, hence why I snap called him.Hand History #696958595 (17:18 06/10/2013)PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancewaller02Big blind 200.00200.001785.00 Your hole cardsQ8   lamedosFold    MATT8Fold    tyler88Fold    DoubleAAARaise 400.00600.002335.00waller02All-in 1785.002385.000.00DoubleAAACall 1585.003970.00750.00waller02Show42   DoubleAAAShowQ8   Flop  73Q   Turn  2   River  10   DoubleAAAWinPair of Queens3970.00 4720.00
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  • gazza127gazza127 Member Posts: 2,156
    edited October 2013
    Erm.

    Yeah i definitely 100% fold.

    Lets face it... this is effectively for your tournament life too.  In fact I probably don't even min raise into the bbs.  I either shove or fold.

    This is never a snap call.

    And why do you always insist on keeping opponents names in?
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  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA Member Posts: 954
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:
    Erm. Yeah i definitely 100% fold. Lets face it... this is effectively for your tournament life too.  In fact I probably don't even min raise into the bbs.  I either shove or fold. This is never a snap call. And why do you always insist on keeping opponents names in?
    Posted by gazza127
    Because Gazz he insulted me and told me to post the hand. Im going to keep his name in there. Gazz, what percentage of hands do you think he is shoving? and work out what equity you need to make the call.  Shoving like you said is fine and is probably the best option of the two.

    I need to add that I am quite aggro so people will shove lighter on me especially in this situation.
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  • waller02waller02 Member Posts: 9,072
    edited October 2013
    Right here we go.......

    When did I ever use the word donkey?? I just questioned your logic.

    This is a primo sat..... 

    This is only the second hand that I had actually played. I 3 bet you in the very first hand and hadn't played another one since so the fact that you came out and said that you 100% knew that I would shove puzzled me. You justified your play by saying you snap called........you 100% knew I would shove when I had only previously played 1 hand???? That is just ridiculous imo....

    I'm not big on the maths side of things at all but I can't see how calling off with Q8 (for nearly all your stack) against somebody who had only played one hand previously, especially in a sat where you don't even need to win can ever be the right play??? Surely you should be folding leaving yourself with still an average stack size rather than risking it with junk???

    If I'm wrong then I apologise........ 

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  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA Member Posts: 954
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:
    Right here we go....... When did I ever use the word donkey?? I just questioned your logic. This is a primo sat.....  This is only the second hand that I had actually played. I 3 bet you in the very first hand and hadn't played another one since so the fact that you came out and said that you 100% knew that I would shove puzzled me. You justified your play by saying you snap called........you 100% knew I would shove when I had only previously played 1 hand???? That is just ridiculous imo.... I'm not big on the maths side of things at all but I can't see how calling off with Q8 (for nearly all your stack) against somebody who had only played one hand previously, especially in a sat where you don't even need to win can ever be the right play??? Surely you should be folding leaving yourself with still an average stack size rather than risking it with junk??? If I'm wrong then I apologise........ 
    Posted by waller02
    I had been aggro in the game and once I raise the btn 400 the bb is shoving so wide here and especially with me being aggro.  You had also 3bet me earlier.  I only need 39.9% equity to make this call. There is a wise saying, 'don't mock the fish' so if you think Im a poor player, don't moan at me, as that would be -EV for you as I may change my game.

    Fwiw you shoved 42o, so I was right in my thinking, and why if you had only played 1 hand would you dream of shoving 42o?
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  • waller02waller02 Member Posts: 9,072
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : I had been aggro in the game and once I raise the btn 400 the bb is shoving so wide here and especially with me being aggro.  You had also 3bet me earlier.  I only need 39.9% equity to make this call. There is a wise saying, 'don't mock the fish' so if you think Im a poor player, don't moan at me, as that would be -EV for you. Fwiw you shoved 42o, so I was right in my thinking, and why if you had only played 1 hand would you dream of shoving 42o?
    Posted by DoubleAAA
    I think you have just explained why I would dream of shoving 42o in this post tbh......

    1. You had been min raising for fun
    2. I had only played 1 hand

    I don't think you are a poor player I have never really played you........I just can't see why you would happily snap call with Q8, especially given my previous (or lack of it) play and especially as it was a satellite. Look I'm no great player, far from it and like I said if I'm wrong then so be it!
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  • gazza127gazza127 Member Posts: 2,156
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : I had been aggro in the game and once I raise the btn 400 the bb is shoving so wide here and especially with me being aggro.  You had also 3bet me earlier.  I only need 39.9% equity to make this call. There is a wise saying, 'don't mock the fish' so if you think Im a poor player, don't moan at me, as that would be -EV for you as I may change my game. Fwiw you shoved 42o, so I was right in my thinking, and why if you had only played 1 hand would you dream of shoving 42o?
    Posted by DoubleAAA
    3 hands you've posted up on the clinic recently.

    You:
    1) Seem out to get approval that you have infact done the right thing, rather than actually gone looking for advice
    2) Seem to want to 'outdo' your opponents by sparking up conflicts and posting up alias'.

    Can we have less of this please.  This is a place to get advice so you can improve your game - Not a place to get appeasement for the decisions you've already decided are correct.
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  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA Member Posts: 954
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : I think you have just explained why I would dream of shoving 42o in this post tbh...... 1. You had been min raising for fun 2. I had only played 1 hand I don't think you are a poor player I have never really played you........I just can't see why you would happily snap call with Q8, especially given my previous (or lack of it) play and especially as it was a satellite
    Posted by waller02
    The reason why I snap call is because my image is aggro, that it induces people to shove light on me. You are needing chips, you're sat with 8bbs and this is a perfect spot for you to shove and gain 50% extra.  I recognise this so im happy to snap you off with my hand as I know you're going to shove so wide here on me.
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  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA Member Posts: 954
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : 3 hands you've posted up on the clinic recently. You: 1) Seem out to get approval that you have infact done the right thing, rather than actually gone looking for advice 2) Seem to want to 'outdo' your opponents by sparking up conflicts and posting up alias'. Can we have less of this please.  This is a place to get advice so you can improve your game - Not a place to get appeasement for the decisions you've already decided are correct.
    Posted by gazza127

    Gazz the guy told me to post the hand so I obliged.  If you don't like my posts then refrain yourself from reading them.   I will not post any alias of any player, but if they berate me or tell me to post the hand as they think I played it poorly then that is my choice whether I do so or not and yes I wil leave there alias in the post.

    Again Gazz, do the maths and tell me how much equity I need to make the call and how wide do you expect the bb to be shoving?

    Further more, I am not searching for appeasement for my play, I am not even looking for advice on this hand, I posted it because the guy told me too.  I am happy with my play here and if you would like to do the maths to disprove my play here then that would be good and if I am wrong then I can learn from it and adjust accordingly .
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  • waller02waller02 Member Posts: 9,072
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : 3 hands you've posted up on the clinic recently. You: 1) Seem out to get approval that you have infact done the right thing, rather than actually gone looking for advice 2) Seem to want to 'outdo' your opponents by sparking up conflicts and posting up alias'. Can we have less of this please.  This is a place to get advice so you can improve your game - Not a place to get appeasement for the decisions you've already decided are correct.
    Posted by gazza127
    In his defence, I did say to post this in the clinic because I wanted to know others thoughts. We both obviously disagree on the hand I'm just curious to know what the general opinion is..........I can even learn something from this too. Perhaps my shove was worse?? Dunno.

    FWIW....there are no hard feelings on my part. There were words exchanged, just handbags. I STILL disagree of course but poker would be boring if we all played the same.
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  • THEROCK573THEROCK573 Member Posts: 2,550
    edited October 2013
    shove poker maths right up you're claypit, in a satalite this play is about as bad as it will ever get. should be open shoving with that stack if you intend to play the hand.
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  • waller02waller02 Member Posts: 9,072
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : Gazz the guy told me to post the hand so I obliged.  If you don't like my posts then refrain yourself from reading them.   I will not post any alias of any player, but if they berate me or tell me to post the hand as they think I played it poorly then that is my choice whether I do so or not and yes I wil leave there alias in the post. Again Gazz, do the maths and tell me how much equity I need to make the call and how wide do you expect the bb to be shoving?
    Posted by DoubleAAA
    It's this that I disagree with.......because I had only played 1 hand. I can easily fold and still have a playable stack but I was confident you were weak, I just should have known that you are happy to call it off with junk rather than waiting to be the shover yourself.......which is the better play imo
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  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA Member Posts: 954
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : In his defence, I did say to post this in the clinic because I wanted to know others thoughts. We both obviously disagree on the hand I'm just curious to know what the general opinion is..........I can even learn something from this too. Perhaps my shove was worse?? Dunno. FWIW....there are no hard feelings on my part. There were words exchanged, just handbags. I STILL disagree of course but poker would be boring if we all played the same.
    Posted by waller02
    Hey Waller no hard feelings here, it's why I even took the time to explain to you why I snap called you in the chatbox. I don't even usually respond to people who complain. I'll say hi next time I see you at the tables.
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  • gazza127gazza127 Member Posts: 2,156
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:
    shove poker maths right up you're claypit, in a satalite this play is about as bad as it will ever get. should be open shoving with that stack if you intend to play the hand.
    Posted by THEROCK573
    +1
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  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA Member Posts: 954
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:
    shove poker maths right up you're claypit, in a satalite this play is about as bad as it will ever get. should be open shoving with that stack if you intend to play the hand.
    Posted by THEROCK573
    Agreed I should've open shoved but I didn't. I'm calling off easily here and fwiw I still had around just over 1k in chips if I lost.
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  • waller02waller02 Member Posts: 9,072
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : Hey Waller no hard feelings here, it's why I even took the time to explain to you why I snap called you in the chatbox. I don't even usually respond to people who complain. I'll say hi next time I see you at the tables.
    Posted by DoubleAAA
    Same........if there were hard feelings over a 2 quid game of cards then the world would be a very sad place. I think it's good to have disagreements/debates over hands though as it is how ppl learn........that's not me saying I'm right and you're wrong....maybe we are both wrong.....who knows!!!

    But I still disagree with you on this one haha
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  • waller02waller02 Member Posts: 9,072
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : Agreed I should've open shoved but I didn't. I'm calling off easily here and fwiw I still had around just over 1k in chips if I lost.
    Posted by DoubleAAA
    you had 750 chips if you lost
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  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA Member Posts: 954
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : Same........if there were hard feelings over a 2 quid game of cards then the world would be a very sad place. I think it's good to have disagreements/debates over hands though as it is how ppl learn........that's not me saying I'm right and you're wrong....maybe we are both wrong.....who knows!!! But I still disagree with you on this one haha
    Posted by waller02
    If I were in your situation im going to shove 100% here unless I know that the raiser is going to call me light.  If I know this then I fold, unless I have a decent hand to shove.  Your play was fine, most people will fold as they do not think about how much equity they need to call etc.  But as you said that you should of known that I would call you lightly then in this particular situation vs me you should of folded.

    People who comment should try to talk about what your bb range is for shoving and how much equity we need to call.  So easy to just say, fold or call etc, but they're not taking into account the main things:
    1) Raisers image
    2) bb image
    3) Equity
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited October 2013
    lol what range of hands do you give villian where you have 39%


    something like this



    22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o

    how are you so sure when you min raise that vill will shove a range wider than above ?

    So your min raising Q8o with a view to call it off, this my friend is not good



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  • gazza127gazza127 Member Posts: 2,156
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : If I were in your situation im going to shove 100% here unless I know that the raiser is going to call me light.  If I know this then I fold, unless I have a decent hand to shove.  Your play was fine, most people will fold as they do not think about how much equity they need to call etc.  But as you said that you should of known that I would call you lightly then in this particular situation vs me you should of folded. People who comment should try to talk about what your bb range is for shoving and how much equity we need to call.  So easy to just say, fold or call etc, but they're not taking into account the main things: 1) Raisers image 2) bb image 3) Equity
    Posted by DoubleAAA
    You still like the call if he pops up with AA/KK/AK/AQ/QQ?

    Or do you curse yourself for min raising and then feeling like you are priced in to call off with Q8.... in a satellite where calling off the vast majority of your stack with Q8 is normally going to be suicide?
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  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA Member Posts: 954
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:
    In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : You still like the call if he pops up with AA/KK/AK/AQ/QQ? Or do you curse yourself for min raising and then feeling like you are priced in to call off with Q8.... in a satellite where calling off the vast majority of your stack with Q8 is normally going to be suicide?
    Posted by gazza127
    So basically you're talking top 3.8% of hands? He only shows up with those hands 1 in 25 so if he has that then nothing I can do about that.  You cannot pick the very top of his range, you have to pick his whole range.  What percentage do you think he is shoving?  FWIW I should of open shoved.


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