Thanks Teddy and yes me inducing was a bad play but once I had raised Im snap calling his shove which your figures show is then the correct play. Perhaps now the people who said its an easy fold etc can now realise why it was an easy call.
says nothing about ICM considerations, though. it might be an +cev call but an horrendous call in terms of ICM considerations. Sometimes it correct to fold AA in a satellite, no matter how correct it is to call in terms of chips won.
first hand in a STT sit and go, top two paid.
oppenent shoves and shows AKo
you have 88, do you call?
it would actually be a bad call. you are slight favorite double your stack, but do not double your chances of winning the tournament. you also have a 46%ish chance of going out first hand.
the Q8 call was probably better for the rest of the field in terms of ICM ev than it was for you tbh
says nothing about ICM considerations, though. it might be an +cev call but an horrendous call in terms of ICM considerations. Sometimes it correct to fold AA in a satellite, no matter how correct it is to call in terms of chips won. first hand in a STT sit and go, top two paid. oppenent shoves and shows AKo you have 88, do you call? it would actually be a bad call. you are slight favorite double your stack, but do not double your chances of winning the tournament. you also have a 46%ish chance of going out first hand. the Q8 call was probably better for the rest of the field in terms of ICM ev than it was for you tbh cheers, TEDDY Posted by TeddyBloat
Problem is we are far from the bubble and the blinds are going up and im not stacked that well. With those considerations imo its an easy call. For your example no, I fold because im behind to his range as he may well be doing this with 77-TT.
if he shows AK though? it's a bad call knowing his exact cards. meh, irrelevent to the question at hand though.
i'll bow to your experience in terms of the ICM of your call. i don't know enough about the stage of the sat you were playing or the mechanics of ICM to work it out.
1. I don't like the initial raise - all-in or fold
2. I don't like the reshove either - need to take a chance at some point with the stack size, trying to get 2 live cards vs overcards is your only hope in this hand, but there must have been better spots to open shove earlier in tourney? Likely to be better spots in the next orbit so I'd wait. Have to think vast majority of the time button is calling unless on an absolute steal.
3. Final call - shouldn't have to make that decision - it's a result of the wrong decision at 1 but if you risk some of your stack pre with those blinds you need to be prepared to call. Something which should have been factored in at 2. I would say the call is marginal and trying to justify with maths is missing the key lesson from the hand which is you should have shoved.
In your last thread it was suggested that you keep villain's identity out of the HH. You seemed to take that point on board, yet have done it again.
You clearly have an aggressive playing style and aggression and position can go a long way in fast structure MTTs, it can also be a bit of a roller-coaster ride with big swings.
Don't get trapped into finding ways of justifying your play because the end result was good. You seem to be dismissing a lot of good feedback because it doesn't fit your perception.
On the evidence of the 2 threads I have commented on you seem to enjoy goading 2 respected forum regulars. Well it's got you noticed but my advice would be to tone it down. Both regs have responded and denied using the exact terms accused of. In both cases you end up mutually apologising and agreeing to move on.
Please keep the posts related to cards and situations and I am sure you will get quality feedback.
Borin and Teddy win the thread. It's a shame to see this thread generate so much discussion when some hands posted in the clinic that are quite interesting barely get any disccusion.
As for shove vs min-r, I think it's opponent dependant. If we know someone is going to shove over us light then we only want to be min-r (inducing) with our strongest hands, min-r/folding complete trash and shoving the rest (ie. Q8) Also if someone reacts to min-r the same they react to a shove with their range (ie. they call the shove with the same range that they shove over our min-r) - then it's fine to exploit this by min-r folding more vs this player.
Also to DoubleAAA - just because it's not near the bubble doesn't mean you don't want to be selective with the hands you play. Q8 is a shove/fold but if your playing a lot of hands you might consider just folding as you might get called off lighter. If your playing tight then Q8 becomes a much more easy shove
It's a shame to see this thread generate so much discussion when some hands posted in the clinic that are quite interesting barely get any disccusion. Posted by F_Ivanovic
+1
Forum dynamics in action - the personal stuff generated lots of traffic + once people see a popular thread more people are likely to comment.
Also agree that table dynamics/player history may impact line on the hand but we were not given any to go on.
If I haven't been stealing for a few orbits and BB is tight and has passed min raises before I might minraise but with stack sizes taken into consideration I would probably still shove. Might fold Q8 if have been "at it" a lot.
Looking at the cards and chip stacks 1. I don't like the initial raise - all-in or fold 2. I don't like the reshove either - need to take a chance at some point with the stack size, trying to get 2 live cards vs overcards is your only hope in this hand, but there must have been better spots to open shove earlier in tourney? Likely to be better spots in the next orbit so I'd wait. Have to think vast majority of the time button is calling unless on an absolute steal. 3. Final call - shouldn't have to make that decision - it's a result of the wrong decision at 1 but if you risk some of your stack pre with those blinds you need to be prepared to call. Something which should have been factored in at 2. I would say the call is marginal and trying to justify with maths is missing the key lesson from the hand which is you should have shoved. In your last thread it was suggested that you keep villain's identity out of the HH. You seemed to take that point on board, yet have done it again. You clearly have an aggressive playing style and aggression and position can go a long way in fast structure MTTs, it can also be a bit of a roller-coaster ride with big swings. Don't get trapped into finding ways of justifying your play because the end result was good. You seem to be dismissing a lot of good feedback because it doesn't fit your perception. On the evidence of the 2 threads I have commented on you seem to enjoy goading 2 respected forum regulars. Well it's got you noticed but my advice would be to tone it down. Both regs have responded and denied using the exact terms accused of. In both cases you end up mutually apologising and agreeing to move on. Please keep the posts related to cards and situations and I am sure you will get quality feedback. Posted by Phantom66
Point taken phantom and yes I should have open shoved instead or min raising this hand. I explained as to why I left villains name and it was villain who told me to post the hand.
Yeah I did pipe up first tbf.......in fact my exact words were "lol and you berated jacs call" and the argument continued from there. This did finish with me saying post the hand on the clinic to see what the general opinion is because I can't see how this could ever be the right play in the long run
Fwiw villain and I are cool about it. From now on I will only post hands where I need advice. I actually have a hand to post later which I think I played wrong which busted me in 14th place in the mini primo last night.
Borin and Teddy win the thread. It's a shame to see this thread generate so much discussion when some hands posted in the clinic that are quite interesting barely get any disccusion. As for shove vs min-r, I think it's opponent dependant. If we know someone is going to shove over us light then we only want to be min-r (inducing) with our strongest hands, min-r/folding complete trash and shoving the rest (ie. Q8) Also if someone reacts to min-r the same they react to a shove with their range (ie. they call the shove with the same range that they shove over our min-r) - then it's fine to exploit this by min-r folding more vs this player. Also to DoubleAAA - just because it's not near the bubble doesn't mean you don't want to be selective with the hands you play. Q8 is a shove/fold but if your playing a lot of hands you might consider just folding as you might get called off lighter. If your playing tight then Q8 becomes a much more easy shove Posted by F_Ivanovic
Correct! I should have only been inducing with strong hands, probably A7s+, 88+, A9o+,KQs. This Q8o should have been an open shove. But once he shoved it was an easy call for me becaus I realise that in this spot he is going to be shoving so wide. My mistake was min raising and not open shoving.
no, jus a population read on ur pointless post again tryin to justify ur donkey play.. its like youve just read/watched a video on the mathematics of poker and now seem to be able to implement it on your donkish plays after the hand was played once you had time to try and justify them- but in reality u cannot justify bad play and u cant say ingame that u know ur a slight favourite here loooooooooooool with the time u have how can u even try and say u were intensionally inducing to snap off knowing ur going to be 53% - jesus are u for real?? ur tilting me with every post u make- if i could be bothered i would show u some proper EV calcs specific to both ur hands u have posted to show u how much of a donkey u really are
id happily help anyone that wants to be helped with my own veiws but they have to be open minded themselves- not someone who wont listen to anyone and think he can justify every wrong move he's played-
no, jus a population read on ur pointless post again tryin to justify ur donkey play.. its like youve just read/watched a video on the mathematics of poker and now seem to be able to implement it on your donkish plays after the hand was played once you had time to try and justify them- but in reality u cannot justify bad play and u cant say ingame that u know ur a slight favourite here loooooooooooool with the time u have how can u even try and say u were intensionally inducing to snap off knowing ur going to be 53% - jesus are u for real?? ur tilting me with every post u make- if i could be bothered i would show u some proper EV calcs specific to both ur hands u have posted to show u how much of a donkey u really are id happily help anyone that wants to be helped with my own veiws but they have to be open minded themselves- not someone who wont listen to anyone and think he can justify every wrong move he's played- Posted by LnarinOO
Why bother to even waste your time to read and comment on this thread? Unless of course trolling.
Q high is strong in this spot. Odds of him holding either an A or K is 26%, being dealt a PP 6%, Being dealt a Q is 3.6% (could be a weaker Q at that)
So total chance that he is holding something better than us preflop is 26% + 6% = 32.6% +1.8% (higher Q) total 34.4% chance that he has a better starting hand than us. Yes I should of open shoved, I didn't and once I had raise I had to call.
why bother posting? tell me exactly what your looking for ?? [x] approval that you know what your doing [x] praise that you have an idea on the math of poker [x] to show you can justify every play you make [x] lookn at me..!! i correctly induced Q8o and dont care what anyone says [x] i know i sound like 92% of a donut and making 2% sense, and know im unlikely goin get anywhere close 100% help from others. but hey ho [ ] other peoples help and veiws [ ] maybe in didnt play this optimally, what would you have done? [ ] listen [ ] maybe ill post a hand where i actually seek advise/veiws rather try and fight my corner and tell everyone i thinkd their wrong......... hmmmmmm Posted by LnarinOO
Have a nice day fella and I will be more than happy to meet and have a drink and talk to any of you regarding poker/general stuff if I can make the live appearance at DtD. But one thing I will not condone and that is rudeness. If someone mocks a person in the chatbox, that's fine, it's there choice, but please do not then bemoan the person when he exposes it. If my play was awful then the guys should be happy that Im playing like a fish and be happy, not mock me.
I thought we all are on the same sheet when we say not to mock fish and not to mock someones play in the chat. Right?
In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : I said many times now that I should of shoved instead of min raising. Posted by DoubleAAA
So you agree, you are a donkey for inducing with Q8o!
In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : So you agree, you are a donkey for inducing with Q8o! No shame in admitting it fella. Posted by rancid
The inducing with his marginal hand was not good but the call was easy once he shoved. No need to be insulting is there.
In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : The inducing with his marginal hand was not good but the call was easy once he shoved. No need to be insulting is there. Posted by DoubleAAA
I think you need to look into ICM to really guage how this call was bad. Even on the face of it, saying I need this % of equity to call may seem fine - ICM would make it a losing money call.
Anyway if you feel confident enough in your play you wouldn't find the term Donkey such an insult.
Wasn't actually meant as an insult, but hey ho.....poker players do get offended very easily
Comments
1. I don't like the initial raise - all-in or fold
2. I don't like the reshove either - need to take a chance at some point with the stack size, trying to get 2 live cards vs overcards is your only hope in this hand, but there must have been better spots to open shove earlier in tourney? Likely to be better spots in the next orbit so I'd wait. Have to think vast majority of the time button is calling unless on an absolute steal.
3. Final call - shouldn't have to make that decision - it's a result of the wrong decision at 1 but if you risk some of your stack pre with those blinds you need to be prepared to call. Something which should have been factored in at 2. I would say the call is marginal and trying to justify with maths is missing the key lesson from the hand which is you should have shoved.
In your last thread it was suggested that you keep villain's identity out of the HH. You seemed to take that point on board, yet have done it again.
You clearly have an aggressive playing style and aggression and position can go a long way in fast structure MTTs, it can also be a bit of a roller-coaster ride with big swings.
Don't get trapped into finding ways of justifying your play because the end result was good. You seem to be dismissing a lot of good feedback because it doesn't fit your perception.
On the evidence of the 2 threads I have commented on you seem to enjoy goading 2 respected forum regulars. Well it's got you noticed but my advice would be to tone it down. Both regs have responded and denied using the exact terms accused of. In both cases you end up mutually apologising and agreeing to move on.
Please keep the posts related to cards and situations and I am sure you will get quality feedback.
Forum dynamics in action - the personal stuff generated lots of traffic + once people see a popular thread more people are likely to comment.
Also agree that table dynamics/player history may impact line on the hand but we were not given any to go on.
If I haven't been stealing for a few orbits and BB is tight and has passed min raises before I might minraise but with stack sizes taken into consideration I would probably still shove. Might fold Q8 if have been "at it" a lot.
First: 24/11/2009
Last: 6/10/2013
its like youve just read/watched a video on the mathematics of poker and now seem to be able to implement it on your donkish plays after the hand was played once you had time to try and justify them- but in reality u cannot justify bad play and u cant say ingame that u know ur a slight favourite here loooooooooooool
with the time u have how can u even try and say u were intensionally inducing to snap off knowing ur going to be 53% - jesus are u for real?? ur tilting me with every post u make- if i could be bothered i would show u some proper EV calcs specific to both ur hands u have posted to show u how much of a donkey u really are
id happily help anyone that wants to be helped with my own veiws but they have to be open minded themselves- not someone who wont listen to anyone and think he can justify every wrong move he's played-
Q high is strong in this spot. Odds of him holding either an A or K is 26%, being dealt a PP 6%, Being dealt a Q is 3.6% (could be a weaker Q at that)
So total chance that he is holding something better than us preflop is 26% + 6% = 32.6% +1.8% (higher Q) total 34.4% chance that he has a better starting hand than us. Yes I should of open shoved, I didn't and once I had raise I had to call.
[x] approval that you know what your doing
[x] praise that you have an idea on the math of poker
[x] to show you can justify every play you make
[x] lookn at me..!! i correctly induced Q8o and dont care what anyone says
[x] i know i sound like 92% of a donut and making 2% sense, and know im unlikely goin get anywhere close
100% help from others. but hey ho
[ ] other peoples help and veiws
[ ] maybe in didnt play this optimally, what would you have done?
[ ] listen
[ ] maybe ill post a hand where i actually seek advise/veiws rather try and fight my corner and tell everyone i
thinkd their wrong.........
hmmmmmm
I thought we all are on the same sheet when we say not to mock fish and not to mock someones play in the chat. Right?
learn from it and move on
So you agree, you are a donkey for inducing with Q8o!
No shame in admitting it fella.
Anyway if you feel confident enough in your play you wouldn't find the term Donkey such an insult.
Wasn't actually meant as an insult, but hey ho.....poker players do get offended very easily