still going on lol to assume villian range is ATC is probably a mistake without prior history/reads Posted by rancid
So why dont we work through this hand and work out what a reasonable calling range is to my shove for the bb with an 8bb stack vs a loose player. That way we can actually work out just how light we can shove the button.
Why troll? I thought we're all here to discuss hands whether they were played correctly or not and how perhaps we should play the hand. Working out his calling range allows us to know just how wide we can open shove and I'm sure it's far wider than Q8o tbh.
Looks as though, a couple of you do not want to talk about his calling range so we can do the maths behind it but instead only interested to say that I am wrong with my hand and thats it.
Well in that case, thanks for the comments guys and happy trolling on my posts.
It's like your Calcalfold's annoying little cousin or something.
Min raise to induce with Q8o is bad, mmmmkay, vs an unknown villain. If we had played villain numerous times before and KNOW they will jam here with almost any 2 then that would at least give us a platform to argue our case. But we don't know this. In fact, said villain had only raised/jammed/whatever once previously, which makes the 'trap' with Q8 even worse.
You won the hand, but that play will be punished way more often than not.
It's like your Calcalfold's annoying little cousin or something. Min raise to induce with Q8o is bad, mmmmkay, vs an unknown villain. If we had played villain numerous times before and KNOW they will jam here with almost any 2 then that would at least give us a platform to argue our case. But we don't know this. In fact, said villain had only raised/jammed/whatever once previously, which makes the 'trap' with Q8 even worse. You won the hand, but that play will be punished way more often than not. Shove or fold button. Easy game. Sigh. Posted by hhyftrftdr
Yes open shove is the optimal play. So moving on from that, just how light can we shove?
In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : So why dont we work through this hand and work out what a reasonable calling range is to my shove for the bb with an 8bb stack vs a loose player. That way we can actually work out just how light we can shove the button. Posted by DoubleAAA
Maybe just relax and have a cup of tea.
Your call is correct if you put villian on ATC, doesn't mean it's a great play. Yes villian turns over 42, I would wager that you will face a better range next time unless you have specific reads.
In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : Yes open shove is the optimal play. So moving on from that, just how light can we shove? Posted by DoubleAAA
As light as a feather. Calling/shoving ranges innit.
I am not going into these ranges now, so please don't ask.
"It's like your Calcalfold's annoying little cousin or something." That is the best line in this whole thread lol Doubles i see you are bringing a bit of 2 plus 2 to Skypoker! Posted by LARSON7
Im ckueless about icm, but from a pure ev point if view: You can turn Q8o face up and still shove profitably at these stack depths, opponents caling range does not matter, its an inexploitable shove this shallow. his shoving range over your minraise depends upon your minraise call range, innit. The minraise/fold-shove/fold-call/fold has been solved ill dig out the gto solutions if you're interested in what optimal play looks like. Otherwise he's going to shove based on two things. Your minraise frequency v your minraise call frequency. If you're never minraise folding then 42 is a bad shove, but he doesnt know that. However if youre opening wide, then Q8 is in the top of your range, 42 obv the bottom of his.
Anytime the top if your range happens to hit them bottom of your opponents then you've run pretty good.
I'm not very good at sats, I'm not sure what an optimal calling range for villain would be here, as it involves ICM stuff. Something like A5+, 55+, KQ/KJ, possibly KTs? Maybe even tighter. Pretty sure Waller will be calling close to correctly anyway. Well I was before I saw this shove Posted by DOHHHHHHH
So with that range he's calling the shove with the top 18% of hands or in otherwords he calls us 1 in 5. If he is calling this tight then we can profitably shove atc.
Im ckueless about icm, but from a pure ev point if view: You can turn Q8o face up and still shove profitably at these stack depths, opponents caling range does not matter, its an inexploitable shove this shallow. his shoving range over your minraise depends upon your minraise call range, innit. The minraise/fold-shove/fold-call/fold has been solved ill dig out the gto solutions if you're interested in what optimal play looks like. Otherwise he's going to shove based on two things. Your minraise frequency v your minraise call frequency. If you're never minraise folding then 42 is a bad shove, but he doesnt know that. However if youre opening wide, then Q8 is in the top of your range, 42 obv the bottom of his. Anytime the top if your range happens to hit them bottom of your opponents then you've run pretty good. Cheers, TEDDY Posted by TeddyBloat
Nice explanation Teddy. Yes it would be nice if you have the time to show the gto solutions.
In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : So with that range he's calling the shove with the top 18% of hands or in otherwords he calls us 1 in 5. If he is calling this tight then we can profitably shove atc. Posted by DoubleAAA
ofc. 12xbb is loads, even the effective stack is significant enough to make him call v tight.
The bottom cash spot pays the same as the top, whilst we have fold equity, we have a chance!
It's an old school "get your money in first" spot.
Tells you nothing about the best way to play the hand in a satellite readless though. Taking the +ev of a shove must be better
.In terms if exploitative play, if youre min raising 70% of hands and calling all that range then the bb should shove the top 49% of hands.
24o becomes an exploitative shove when you are opening 70% and only calling with your top 35% of hands. Again this is pure chip ev and says nothing abour icm coniderations. There are loads of calculators around if you want to okug numbers in. Doubt inducing would be seen as anything other than bad though. You lose too much fold equity and are basically relying on either coming up against the bottom of villains range and holding ir sucking out against hands that beat ye.
Using the hand as played at 8bbs when the options are SB: minraise or fold Bb: shove or fold SB: call fold Q8 is a minraise at all stack depths 24 is a shove upto 2.4 bb Q8o is a call upto 11bbs Tells you nothing about the best way to play the hand in a satellite readless though. Taking the +ev of a shove must be better .In terms if exploitative play, if youre min raising 70% of hands and calling all that range then the bb should shove the top 49% of hands. 24o becomes an exploitative shove when you are opening 70% and only calling with your top 35% of hands. Again this is pure chip ev and says nothing abour icm coniderations. There are loads of calculators around if you want to okug numbers in. Doubt inducing would be seen as anything other than bad though. You lose too much fold equity and are basically relying on either coming up against the bottom of villains range and holding ir sucking out against hands that beat ye. Cheers, TEDDY Posted by TeddyBloat
Thanks Teddy and yes me inducing was a bad play but once I had raised Im snap calling his shove which your figures show is then the correct play. Perhaps now the people who said its an easy fold etc can now realise why it was an easy call.
I'm not going to read through this entire thread because it's late and the thread is huge.
Someone else has probably said this but when we raise the button, we can see the Big Blind's stack and he knows we can see it. In this situation we should not be min-raising intending to fold to a 9BB shove, and we should expect the villain to believe that he has no fold equity.
So when we min-raise we're repping a hand we're happy to go with. When the villain shoves, he should therefore have a hand that he's happy to go to showdown with. Those are the assumptions both of us should be making in the absence of particular reads on our opponent.
If we are min-raising here, it should be in the belief that the big blind is folding a high a proportion of his range. That would be a good spot to steal. However, if we believe that he's folding a high proportion of his range, when he shoves we should believe he's pretty strong. Now how do our pot odds look in the face of those assumptions?
You also have to bear in mind that, particularly in satellites, the value of our own chips is greater than the value of other chips - in the pot or our opponents' stacks. So when facing a call with 40% pot odds, we need to believe that we actually have far greater equity than 40% to make the call profitable in ICM terms.
Generally speaking, and I'm sure someone else has said this, we should be shoving or folding the button here with 100% of our range. We can't afford to be min-raise trapping because a) we're not going to get enough monster hands to maintain our stack this way, b) if we're min-raising with our monsters and shoving our weak hands, we're very transparent, and c) we want to be avoiding showdowns wherever possible, claiming chips without risking our stacks.
So we want to disguise our hand strength by shoving all the hands we intend to play when we're this shallow. You have to remember that claiming 100% of the value of the blinds, by forcing our opponents to fold, is better than claiming a 60%-70% edge in a big pot by calling. That's because the value of the first chip is far greater than the value of the last. That's ICM for you.
Comments
to assume villian range is ATC is probably a mistake without prior history/reads
Well in that case, thanks for the comments guys and happy trolling on my posts.
Maybe just relax and have a cup of tea.
Your call is correct if you put villian on ATC, doesn't mean it's a great play.
Yes villian turns over 42, I would wager that you will face a better range next time unless you have specific reads.
If your reas are spot on, then well played.
That is the best line in this whole thread lol
Doubles i see you are bringing a bit of 2 plus 2 to Skypoker!
Is that a good or bad thing Larson7?
Something like A5+, 55+, KQ/KJ, possibly KTs?
Maybe even tighter.
Pretty sure Waller will be calling close to correctly anyway. Well I was before I saw this shove
The bottom cash spot pays the same as the top, whilst we have fold equity, we have a chance!
It's an old school "get your money in first" spot.
Auto allin!
I'm not going to read through this entire thread because it's late and the thread is huge.
Someone else has probably said this but when we raise the button, we can see the Big Blind's stack and he knows we can see it. In this situation we should not be min-raising intending to fold to a 9BB shove, and we should expect the villain to believe that he has no fold equity.
So when we min-raise we're repping a hand we're happy to go with. When the villain shoves, he should therefore have a hand that he's happy to go to showdown with. Those are the assumptions both of us should be making in the absence of particular reads on our opponent.
If we are min-raising here, it should be in the belief that the big blind is folding a high a proportion of his range. That would be a good spot to steal. However, if we believe that he's folding a high proportion of his range, when he shoves we should believe he's pretty strong. Now how do our pot odds look in the face of those assumptions?
You also have to bear in mind that, particularly in satellites, the value of our own chips is greater than the value of other chips - in the pot or our opponents' stacks. So when facing a call with 40% pot odds, we need to believe that we actually have far greater equity than 40% to make the call profitable in ICM terms.
Generally speaking, and I'm sure someone else has said this, we should be shoving or folding the button here with 100% of our range. We can't afford to be min-raise trapping because a) we're not going to get enough monster hands to maintain our stack this way, b) if we're min-raising with our monsters and shoving our weak hands, we're very transparent, and c) we want to be avoiding showdowns wherever possible, claiming chips without risking our stacks.
So we want to disguise our hand strength by shoving all the hands we intend to play when we're this shallow. You have to remember that claiming 100% of the value of the blinds, by forcing our opponents to fold, is better than claiming a 60%-70% edge in a big pot by calling. That's because the value of the first chip is far greater than the value of the last. That's ICM for you.