In Response to Re: Making a Full Time Wage From Poker - PokerNoon's Journal : Whereabouts in Preston are you? Ashton here. Guessing you haven't seen this story from last week then. Interesting news if it goes anywhere: http://www.lep.co.uk/news/licence-bid-for-first-preston-casino-1-6316112 You don't need to know anything about horses or racing in general to trade. I know pretty much nothing even now. You're just analysing how the markets move and acting accordingly. You're not interested in form, whether a horse will win or lose, just whether the odds on a particular horse will go up or down right now. Then you bet accordingly, the price moves in the right direction, you close out the trade and profit is guaranteed regardless of what happens in the race. It's not really comparable with normal sports betting. I bet on cricket tests because I understand how to find value at points in a test match. For example there has been extraordinary value on Australia in this Ashes series at points when they have been pretty much nailed on to win. Back in February (I think), SA were playing Pakistan at home. They had already won the first two tests and were playing in the 3rd and final test at Centurian, a venue where they typically crush sub continental teams inside 3 days. Yet before the first ball was bowled you could back SA at 1.5 which I thought was insane...so I backed them with £5k...and they crushed Pakistan inside 3 days. To me, that was just an opportunity for free money. You don't see value like that in football (certainly not in the EPL). Trading wise you have to distinguish between pre-off and in-play trading. Pre-off has many factors that can affect it, whereas in-play odds only change by what happens in the game itself. Obviously in cricket you also have the weather forecast to consider. Anyway...back to poker, which is what this journal was meant to be about .... Lambert, cheers for that. I know I can certainly improve my thinking early on in terms of 'what cards could he have?' How did you get on in the Primo last night btw? You seemed to be doing ok last time I looked. Posted by PokerNoon
It sounds like your sports trading is very similar to trading on the markets where you make a predicition on whether a share for example will fall or rise and go long or short accordingly, in a similar way to not actually betting on outcomes you do not physically own the stock.
There are a few regs on sky who as far as I am aware do a lot of similar trading to you on cricket.
Do you have any good links to read up on sports trading, initially from the basics? From what you say, you seem to make a decent income from sports trading and to match this on the poker front would require you to play higher stakes than you have done soo far. You probably will need to learn how to play cash to make decent money. Easier said than done though, GL!
Hi, First off i'm going to say this target is going to be difficult purely due to volume. While you can get decent ish volume playing 3.30-5.50, 11+ the volume just isn't there even on bigger sites. The site with the biggest volume of DYM's closed them down due to widespread collusion. £50 a day is certainly acheivable but you would have to put in a lot of volume at the 5-11 stakes that would require you probably playing atleast 8 hours a day with 9+ tables. Even then you would require a very solid winrate, 10%+ is really hard to acheive for even seasoned players these days. That said if you want to start getting towards that goal you need to first master ICM, get some software and set it up for a DYM payout structure and master your push fold ranges. Once your really good with ICM (not the easiest task) your going to have to learn when to and when not to rely on ICM late game due to other gameplay factors. You need to definetly learn to play atleast 6 tables at a time, probably more to achieve your goal. I think DYM's are a good place to start and learn solid tight agressive play and late game push/fold situations. However if your serious about making a living from poker DYM's probably isn't the best area long term. I'd reccomend spending a month playing and grind out 500+ games and then move to MTT's, turbo SNG's or cash where you can find good volume at the higher levels to make a living. Posted by cgoldie
For what it's worth - not much I guess - I think this Post by cgoldie is absolutely spot on, best all-round advice I've seen in this thread so far.
The only slight disagreement I have with it is the suggestion that once you've done 500 DYTM's & got to grips with the basics, that you move on to MTT's. Making a steady income from MTT's is incredibly tough, & very few manage it. Cash is the way forward for you, imo, once you move on from DYM's.
One other point - DYM's are ideal for you right now, low variance, & perfect for learning the basics. I would not recommend that you play more than 500 or so though, as it ingrains habits in your game, & some of these habits do not work in other formats.
Incidentally, you asked me on another thread if I use Betfair Exchange for Sports Betting.
I do, yes, but not to a great extent, as I don't do much "trading" as such, mainly regular betting, & I have accounts with all the major Firms, though many of them are now severely restricted or even closed.
Incidentally, you asked me on another thread if I use Betfair Exchange for Sports Betting. I do, yes, but not to a great extent, as I don't do much "trading" as such, mainly regular betting, & I have accounts with all the major Firms, though many of them are now severely restricted or even closed. Posted by Tikay10
how can anyone be tired of taking your money Tikay? :-)
In Response to Re: Making a Full Time Wage From Poker - PokerNoon's Journal : how can anyone be tired of taking your money Tikay? :-) Posted by deadeyed
Ha!
No need for that, no need at all.
It's strange but true though.
Incidentally, I give a Sports Betting tip every week with my UKPC Video Update, & this week's one won nicely @ 2/1. Last week's won @ Evens, the week before, which was a horse EW, was 2nd @ 8/1. Variance is a wonderful thing, eh?
Reeeeeeeeally hope that Preston casino plan gets the go ahead! It's a bit of a pain having to travel to Bolton, Blackpool or Manchester to get a decent game.
So I tried a little experiment today involving aggression.
The call button was pretty much redundant except on select occasions. I didn't get involved much, but when I did, I went in hard. It worked a treat! I played 6 $11 DYMs and cashed in all 6.
We all know that one swallow does not a summer make, but nevertheless I am still delighted with my play today.
I also signed up to Sharkscope today and before every DYM I scoped out all of my opponents. As well as aggression, today's focus was on 'what will it take for me to win this pot?', rather than 'do my cards beat everyone else's?'
That change of thinking has opened my mind slightly to new plays that I wouldn't have thought about before. Also was conscious of trying to put my opposition in as many tight spots as possible.
It's also the first day of the challenge that I have achieved my goal - £9 profit from 6 DYMs = £54.
I only played one DYM at once today. I wanted to really try and understand my opponents in detail and take notes as I went. Try to figure out 'why are they betting/calling/checking now?' and then making a play based on that, rather than the cards I was holding. I must say that this more psychological profiling style of playing is more interesting and enjoyable to me than simply playing the right cards at the right time. ABC if you will.
Anyway, I'm not getting carried away yet, but I am 100% sure I am progressing very quickly here. Thanks again to all for the advice and help you've given - I couldn't have gotten here this fast without you.
Since I hit my target today, I'm taking some time now away from the screen before I play in a large freeroll on another network later on tonight. I take every opportunity I can with these freerolls to work on my MTT game without spending a fortune. I'd love to play in the big Primos more, but my BR just doesn't allow it.
In Response to Re: Making a Full Time Wage From Poker - PokerNoon's Journal : It sounds like your sports trading is very similar to trading on the markets where you make a predicition on whether a share for example will fall or rise and go long or short accordingly, in a similar way to not actually betting on outcomes you do not physically own the stock. There are a few regs on sky who as far as I am aware do a lot of similar trading to you on cricket. Do you have any good links to read up on sports trading, initially from the basics? From what you say, you seem to make a decent income from sports trading and to match this on the poker front would require you to play higher stakes than you have done soo far. You probably will need to learn how to play cash to make decent money. Easier said than done though, GL! Posted by ACEGOONER
Search for Peter Webb's Bet Angel blog. He's not the best writer in the world, but he is a great trader. He's my inspiration for the trading I do now. Of course I think my blog is pretty awesome too
Agree with you about the higher stakes. I might start tinkering around with some cash games again soon (thanks to Tikay for that idea). Problem with cash is that it never ends. DYM, STT or MTT has an end point in sight, whereas with cash you can play for ever. For me, that means 'play until you lose your entire stack', which is not exactly the most profitable strategy in the world.
I checked my records and I signed up here on 12th November - just over a month ago. I've come a long way since then. Makes me wonder where I can get to in another month, 6 months, 1 year?
Question for the more experienced players...in the early stages of a DYM, is there ever a situation which warrants calling UTG? I see players doing this all the time and I look on SS and they have played 1000s of games (usually not profitably)...in my head this is a ridiculously basic error which is asking to be exploited with a big raise. Am I missing something here?
If by calling UTG you mean limping into the pot UTG then no there's pretty much never an excuse to do this in any game. It's also not surprising that the people you see doing it and usually not profitable players on SS.
In Response to Re: Making a Full Time Wage From Poker - PokerNoon's Journal : Search for Peter Webb's Bet Angel blog. He's not the best writer in the world, but he is a great trader. He's my inspiration for the trading I do now. Of course I think my blog is pretty awesome too Agree with you about the higher stakes. I might start tinkering around with some cash games again soon (thanks to Tikay for that idea). Problem with cash is that it never ends. DYM, STT or MTT has an end point in sight, whereas with cash you can play for ever. For me, that means 'play until you lose your entire stack', which is not exactly the most profitable strategy in the world. I checked my records and I signed up here on 12th November - just over a month ago. I've come a long way since then. Makes me wonder where I can get to in another month, 6 months, 1 year? Question for the more experienced players ...in the early stages of a DYM, is there ever a situation which warrants calling UTG? I see players doing this all the time and I look on SS and they have played 1000s of games (usually not profitably)...in my head this is a ridiculously basic error which is asking to be exploited with a big raise. Am I missing something here? Posted by PokerNoon
In NLH, almost never, no.
Winning players MAKE things happen (raise), others LET things happen (limp, & hope to hit the flop).
You don't need the best hand, you need the best DYM strategy.
Playing from UTG, our hands needs to be MUCH stronger than from the Button.
In Response to Re: Making a Full Time Wage From Poker - PokerNoon's Journal : In NLH, almost never, no. Winning players MAKE things happen (raise), others LET things happen (limp, & hope to hit the flop). You don't need the best hand, you need the best DYM strategy. Playing from UTG, our hands needs to be MUCH stronger than from the Button. Posted by Tikay10
I'm learning a bit about DYMs myself - mostly just reinforcing they are mind numbing to play - but agree ideal place to start and fairly easy to learn to win. Really would help to have a bankroll to start at £3.30 and save some rake because the margins aren't great and it makes a big difference.
I'm grinding up from nothing (well <£1) and up over £50 now playing £1 DYMs and 6max [edit:balance includes £25 from ToP entry for those observant enough to spot profit doesn't match in other thread]
Much prefer 6max as a format - lower rake -slower structure and you get rewarded for playing to win.
To earn a living though you need to follow the volume and that means cash IMO. For fun and the chance for a decent ROI without too much of a learning curve I would go for 6max - the volume isn't there to grind though.
Most importantly though as a fellow Prestonian - bring on the casino - hope to see you there one day!
Good luck with this, I am aregular on five and ten dyms and my roi is about 7 percent. My advice keep a tight aggressive game and you will make a profit, avoid the regs if you can (Jac35, patwalsh, john connor, and myself - apologies for those i missed). Also know your opponents and chnage your game to fit, avoid bluffing the fish unless you know they call fold a lot and dont be afraid to float a cbet agaisnt better players.
I had no idea there were so many fellow Preston folk around here! Maybe because there's not much else to do in this town
Anyway, another solid day.
Second day in a row I've hit my £50 target.
Played 1 £11 DYM this morning and cashed in that, so I thought I'd try my luck at the £22 level. Cashed in that, and just stayed at that level all day. Ended up cashing in 5/7 at that level for a total of £55 profit for the day.
Gonna play in a freeroll bounty hunter qualifier this evening and back onto DYMs again tomorrow.
What I'm most pleased about is that I don't think I was lucky today. I didn't get amazing cards all day, or win a bunch of coin flip all-in situations. In fact one thing I'm trying to do is not get involved in those 50/50 situations unless I have a massive stack and we're on the bubble, because it's just not a profitable long term tactic.
Wow, what a terrible evening after my last post. Freeroll - busted out early. Then decided to play in the £5k turbo that started at 8pm. Busted out at exactly 8.06pm. Later on thought I'd give the cash tables a go again. Been a while since the last time. Playing 10nl with £10 stack, built it up to £26. Decided 'I'll close this down and go to bed when I get to £30'. Then got AA cracked by QQ and lost it all in one hand. Yet again, I never leave the cash tables with more than £0. Bit frustrated, but never mind. Back to DYM in the morning. Posted by PokerNoon
Unlucky. But it's not a terrible evening if we've done the right things and been unlucky. It's a frustrating one yes, but not terrible. More important is why we've bust at 8.06pm, if 80% of the time we'd have doubled that's great, but if we reflect and see that we didn't need to be in a hand, or missed something that meant we could get off a hand, then that's something to learn from. If there's been nothing to learn from, it's been a cracking night, despite being a few bob out of pocket.
Your report on your DYM game coming along is very encouraging. Keep up the good work.
Please take this in the intended spirit, which is constructive, I'm am NOT knocking you, but......
You seem to be trying to be all things to all men, almost a jack-of-all-trades.
You are new to poker, & are going along nicely, but in one day, you are playing THREE different formats - DYM's, Tourneys, & Cash.
I've yet to meet a poker player on earth who was equally good at all three formats.
If I were your poker Mentor or coach (God forbid, lol!), I would insist you stuck to ONE Format for a minimum of 3 months, until you have found your feet. And, given that you are taking this seriously, it would NOT include MTT's - the variance in those things is massive. Even the very best MTT players can go months without a decent cash.
It hurts me to see your hard-earned DYM profits going down the MTT route.
The Thread Title is "Making a Full Time Wage from Poker". If that remains the plan, I'd cut out the MTT's, & decide between Cash & DYM's. Logically, cash games would be the best route. I'd estimate that over 90% of Poker Pros earn their wages in Cash Games. Very very few do so in MTT's.
Anyway, I'm not your mentor or Coach, so it's as you were.....
Tikay - Wise words as ever. I agree with everything you said. I took on the MTT as a bit of a punt, but these punts do all add up over time. I'll steer clear for the time being unless I sneak in through freerolls. If I choose to play cash it will be using a tenner after I've already made £60 or more for the day. That way if I lose, I'm still hitting my £50 target.
bbMike - Solid advice. Perhaps you can help with a situation in the £5k turbo?
Very first hand. I'm in SB and dealt JJ.
UTG limps, and 2 more follow before it gets to me. I raise from 20 to 100 (I think the opening blinds are 20, might have been 30). 2 of the 3 call.
Flop comes down and the highest card is a 9, but there are 2 spades there. So my only concern is the flush draw or a set. I don't believe anyone can have a higher pair than me, because I'm assuming they would have raised preflop if they did.
I bet about 80% of the pot, thinking it will make anyone with a flush draw fold. UTG limper calls, other guy folds.
So now we're heads up and the turn card is a low spade.
Still no overcards, the question in my head is 'what to do now?'
If I assume he's hit his flush, I can check, But in my mind that's equivalent to waving a white flag and saying 'come and take the pot'. And suppose he isn't on a flush draw but just a low pocket pair and he's one of these guys that will keep on calling (especially early on when the blinds are low), I don't want to give up my pot to him in this scenario.
So I bet about 80% of the pot again and he calls again.
River card is another low spade. So we're in the odd situation of there being 4 spades on the board and the highest card is a 9. At this point I give up and check. He goes all in and I fold, so I never knew what he had.
My guess is that he had something like A6 of spades and he was willing to call the big flop bet because he knew he was drawing to the nuts.
How would you have played this one? I lost over half my stack in the first hand!
Thanks guys. Tikay - Wise words as ever. I agree with everything you said. I took on the MTT as a bit of a punt, but these punts do all add up over time. I'll steer clear for the time being unless I sneak in through freerolls. If I choose to play cash it will be using a tenner after I've already made £60 or more for the day. That way if I lose, I'm still hitting my £50 target. bbMike - Solid advice. Perhaps you can help with a situation in the £5k turbo? Very first hand. I'm in SB and dealt JJ. UTG limps, and 2 more follow before it gets to me. I raise from 20 to 100 (I think the opening blinds are 20, might have been 30). 2 of the 3 call. Flop comes down and the highest card is a 9, but there are 2 spades there. So my only concern is the flush draw or a set. I don't believe anyone can have a higher pair than me, because I'm assuming they would have raised preflop if they did. I bet about 80% of the pot, thinking it will make anyone with a flush draw fold. UTG limper calls, other guy folds. So now we're heads up and the turn card is a low spade. Still no overcards, the question in my head is 'what to do now?' If I assume he's hit his flush, I can check, But in my mind that's equivalent to waving a white flag and saying 'come and take the pot'. And suppose he isn't on a flush draw but just a low pocket pair and he's one of these guys that will keep on calling (especially early on when the blinds are low), I don't want to give up my pot to him in this scenario. So I bet about 80% of the pot again and he calls again. River card is another low spade. So we're in the odd situation of there being 4 spades on the board and the highest card is a 9. At this point I give up and check. He goes all in and I fold, so I never knew what he had. My guess is that he had something like A6 of spades and he was willing to call the big flop bet because he knew he was drawing to the nuts. How would you have played this one? I lost over half my stack in the first hand! Posted by PokerNoon
In the early Levels, these hands are an absolute nightmare to play, as you get some really weird calls, & it's so hard to define their holding.
Only one stage of a DYM matters to me - 4 handed. I'm totally disintereted in going to war any sooner, except in VERY rare spots. I need to preserve my stack for when it matters. If I can get my Aces Heads Up, fine, if not, I'll bin them no prob.
J-J in Level 1 is the nightmare scenario, unless we have position. The lags will shout at me, but I'm not persevering with them in Level One, I want to preserve my stack until there are 4 players left & the Blinds are big, because I can push folks around then, & I only need to steal the Blinds once or twice & I'm home & hosed.
Think I might even just limp with J-J here, & set-mine, if I miss, fine, in the bin, & it's cost me 20 chips, which is only 1% of my stack.
Comments
Do you have any good links to read up on sports trading, initially from the basics? From what you say, you seem to make a decent income from sports trading and to match this on the poker front would require you to play higher stakes than you have done soo far. You probably will need to learn how to play cash to make decent money. Easier said than done though, GL!
The only slight disagreement I have with it is the suggestion that once you've done 500 DYTM's & got to grips with the basics, that you move on to MTT's. Making a steady income from MTT's is incredibly tough, & very few manage it. Cash is the way forward for you, imo, once you move on from DYM's.
One other point - DYM's are ideal for you right now, low variance, & perfect for learning the basics. I would not recommend that you play more than 500 or so though, as it ingrains habits in your game, & some of these habits do not work in other formats.
Incidentally, you asked me on another thread if I use Betfair Exchange for Sports Betting.
I do, yes, but not to a great extent, as I don't do much "trading" as such, mainly regular betting, & I have accounts with all the major Firms, though many of them are now severely restricted or even closed.
No need for that, no need at all.
It's strange but true though.
Incidentally, I give a Sports Betting tip every week with my UKPC Video Update, & this week's one won nicely @ 2/1. Last week's won @ Evens, the week before, which was a horse EW, was 2nd @ 8/1. Variance is a wonderful thing, eh?
Winning players MAKE things happen (raise), others LET things happen (limp, & hope to hit the flop).
You don't need the best hand, you need the best DYM strategy.
Playing from UTG, our hands needs to be MUCH stronger than from the Button.
Good luck on the diary and challenge.
I'm learning a bit about DYMs myself - mostly just reinforcing they are mind numbing to play - but agree ideal place to start and fairly easy to learn to win. Really would help to have a bankroll to start at £3.30 and save some rake because the margins aren't great and it makes a big difference.
I'm grinding up from nothing (well <£1) and up over £50 now playing £1 DYMs and 6max [edit:balance includes £25 from ToP entry for those observant enough to spot profit doesn't match in other thread]
Much prefer 6max as a format - lower rake -slower structure and you get rewarded for playing to win.
To earn a living though you need to follow the volume and that means cash IMO. For fun and the chance for a decent ROI without too much of a learning curve I would go for 6max - the volume isn't there to grind though.
Most importantly though as a fellow Prestonian - bring on the casino - hope to see you there one day!
Your report on your DYM game coming along is very encouraging. Keep up the good work.
Noony,
Please take this in the intended spirit, which is constructive, I'm am NOT knocking you, but......
You seem to be trying to be all things to all men, almost a jack-of-all-trades.
You are new to poker, & are going along nicely, but in one day, you are playing THREE different formats - DYM's, Tourneys, & Cash.
I've yet to meet a poker player on earth who was equally good at all three formats.
If I were your poker Mentor or coach (God forbid, lol!), I would insist you stuck to ONE Format for a minimum of 3 months, until you have found your feet. And, given that you are taking this seriously, it would NOT include MTT's - the variance in those things is massive. Even the very best MTT players can go months without a decent cash.
It hurts me to see your hard-earned DYM profits going down the MTT route.
The Thread Title is "Making a Full Time Wage from Poker". If that remains the plan, I'd cut out the MTT's, & decide between Cash & DYM's. Logically, cash games would be the best route. I'd estimate that over 90% of Poker Pros earn their wages in Cash Games. Very very few do so in MTT's.
Anyway, I'm not your mentor or Coach, so it's as you were.....
Good luck.
Only one stage of a DYM matters to me - 4 handed. I'm totally disintereted in going to war any sooner, except in VERY rare spots. I need to preserve my stack for when it matters. If I can get my Aces Heads Up, fine, if not, I'll bin them no prob.
J-J in Level 1 is the nightmare scenario, unless we have position. The lags will shout at me, but I'm not persevering with them in Level One, I want to preserve my stack until there are 4 players left & the Blinds are big, because I can push folks around then, & I only need to steal the Blinds once or twice & I'm home & hosed.
Think I might even just limp with J-J here, & set-mine, if I miss, fine, in the bin, & it's cost me 20 chips, which is only 1% of my stack.