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Further misadventures of a fish at the cash tables

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  • shakinacesshakinaces Member Posts: 1,590
    edited November 2014

    If only the game could always be as easy as this....

    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    shakinaces Small blind  £0.10 £0.10 £20.73
    xxxBig blind  £0.20 £0.30 £4.19
      Your hole cards
    • A
    • 10
         
    yyyRaise  £0.60 £0.90 £13.55
     Fold     
    zzzCall  £0.60 £1.50 £12.24
    000Call  £0.60 £2.10 £0.40
    shakinaces Call  £0.50 £2.60 £20.23
    xxxCall  £0.40 £3.00 £3.79
    Flop
       
    • 5
    • J
    • Q
         
    shakinaces Check     
    xxxAll-in  £3.79 £6.79 £0.00
    yyyFold     
    zzzCall  £3.79 £10.58 £8.45
    000All-in  £0.40 £10.98 £0.00
    shakinaces All-in  £20.23 £31.21 £0.00
    zzzAll-in  £8.45 £39.66 £0.00
    shakinaces Unmatched bet  £7.99 £31.67 £7.99
    shakinaces Show
    • A
    • 10
       
    xxxShow
    • Q
    • 8
       
    zzzShow
    • Q
    • K
       
    000Show
    • K
    • 10
       
    Turn
       
    • 9
         
    River
       
    • 6
         
    shakinaces Win Flush to the Ace £30.08  £38.07
    Ok, so I should have 3-bet pre-flop.  I know I didn't play it well and got lucky.

    This was a pretty kind table for NL20 standards though.
  • shakinacesshakinaces Member Posts: 1,590
    edited November 2014
    Hmm a whole £4 up since my last post. Such a high roller.

    Shame I can't set up a new user name and make a quick crack at NL50 or higher without people having a headstart on my (many) weaknesses!

    Probably spent as much time watching videos as I did playing poker... always fun to get a brief view of others playing at the Sky tables:

    https://www.pokervip.com/en/coaching-videos/poker-coach-review-of-jef147--sky-poker-30nl

    Punishing the limpers is as important to modern poker as raising unopened pots on the button.

    The game is so much easier when you are stepped back and watching from afar, as opposed to being the maelstrom of emotions at the table and given just a few short seconds to instinctively grab for the correct decision.

    Maelstrom is a bit OTT, but a great word not used frequently enough, so I thought it deserved an outing.

    I also looked up lots of stuff on blind defence and playing for orphan pots (the durrrrr playbook) - not sure I've implemented it entirely successfully, as it just seemed to lead to way more people playing back at me, it felt like every bet I made was getting zero respect when I played yesterday lol...

    Maybe these aren't NL20 / MC10 strategies and I need to hide back under my rock and nit back up.

    Way more fun getting involved in fighting for more than your fair share of pots though!
  • shakinacesshakinaces Member Posts: 1,590
    edited November 2014
    Misplayed hand of the weekend.

    a) probably shouldn't be calling 87o on the button, arguably better stance to 3b
    b) feel I have to raise flop for value and protection, sizing is maybe a bit TOO large
    c) got carried away on turn, just gone behind to 99/TT/JJ which could concievably be in MP range, as well as the possibility of the two A2s combos

    I think I should be checking back the turn. Albeit in this case the bet worked as MP dwelled up and said in chat that he folded a flush draw, convinced that I'd just housed up
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    sbSmall blind  £0.05 £0.05 £13.48
    bbBig blind  £0.10 £0.15 £19.19
      Your hole cards
    • 8
    • 7
         
    utgRaise  £0.30 £0.45 £20.21
    mpCall  £0.30 £0.75 £40.27
    coFold     
    shakinaces Call  £0.30 £1.05 £29.93
    sbFold     
    bbFold     
    Flop
       
    • 7
    • 2
    • 8
         
    utgBet  £0.79 £1.84 £19.42
    mpCall  £0.79 £2.63 £39.48
    shakinaces Raise  £3.10 £5.73 £26.83
    utgFold     
    mpCall  £2.31 £8.04 £37.17
    Turn
       
    • 2
         
    mpCheck     
    shakinaces Bet  £4.10 £12.14 £22.73
    mpFold     
    shakinaces Muck     
    shakinaces Win  £7.43  £30.16
    shakinaces Return  £4.10 £0.61 £34.26
  • Chris_McChris_Mc Member Posts: 1,340
    edited November 2014
    Is it misplayed if you win?

    Thats why i love poker.  You can say u shouldve done this and that... but u won and thats what matters.
  • shakinacesshakinaces Member Posts: 1,590
    edited November 2014
    In Response to Re: Further misadventures of a fish at the cash tables:
    Is it misplayed if you win? Thats why i love poker.  You can say u shouldve done this and that... but u won and thats what matters.
    Posted by Chris_Mc
    Yeah I think you can still misplay but get lucky that it's one of the minority of times where a play works so you end up winning the pot... hopefully the more hands play 'perfectly' the more money you make over the longer term.

    But yeah you're right that being able to approach situations in so many different ways is one of the great things about poker... there is very rarely a definitive way to playing any particular hand or opponent!
  • shakinacesshakinaces Member Posts: 1,590
    edited November 2014
    £2,575

    So nearly broke my DTD duck in the 'easier' DTD 3 (the one most people give up on if they've busted earlier in DTD1 / 2 or fail to enter it at all) but after feeling in a good spot HU I made a poor call to lose the chip lead and then couldn't bink a flush draw... still, it looks a bit better than other recent efforts :)

    Nothing better than 60th in the 'harder' DTDs... I've really started to enjoy the banter in these though, so it's now a new aim to bink at least one tourni, if not gain an overall Monday night win... I may be waiting some time vs those fields though...

    Had the bonus of picking up a BI at NL30 alongside the tourni games... videos around isolating put to good use vs some odd plays I'd more expect to see at NL4.

    I think focus may still be a struggle looking forward... part want to focus enough on MTT to win DTDs/get a fancy sharkscope/have a decent tilt at some mains and minis - the other part wants to get enough confidence to take a shot up to nl100... imagining I am way off the talent to do both, even if I can manage just one!!
  • TENTENTENTENTENTEN Member Posts: 481
    edited November 2014
    wp last night outlaw so close to taking it down next time eh
  • shakinacesshakinaces Member Posts: 1,590
    edited December 2014
    Huh, I knew that work had kept me from updating this for a bit, but didn't realise it'd been as long as two weeks.

    I've been running akin to Usain Bolt for the past week or so and have bashed past the £3k marker... true to my lack of self confidence though, where this would lead most players wanting to play 24/7 and believing they are going to smash every table, I remain a little fearful that the variance has to even things up eventually and the next session is always going to be the one where I crash and burn.

    I'm a little hopeful it's not just positive variance... I have read/watched a lot on winning without showdown and I hope some of the wins have been as a benefit of that, rather than pure luck.

    The idiocy of a bankroll nit with a gambling problem

    The daftness of playing with 150 BI for NL20 (and still having NL10 tables in the mix as often as I do NL30) was further highlighted last week.

    On the way back from a supplier party in London, the foolish decision to stop and play some bandits before the train home saw me over £400 quid down at one point, before a super-lucky run got me out of the hole (which I definitely didn't deserve).

    It's ridonkulous really.

    I have no cajones to sit down at NL100 of higher for fear of losing, a BI or two. Yet I still on occasion find myself putting a weeks' wages at risk in something I KNOW 100% is -EV.

    I think I need a lobotomy or something.

    Video time

    I did get round to taking a 30-min screen of 4-tabling which is in a queue to get coaching advice put over the top of it. Will throw the link up when it goes live and any lurkers can be welcome to add their critique / learn how to exploit my weaknesses (at least until I take on board the comments and fix my game!!)

    iPhone winningness.

    Well played ElleJaySea in the freeroll at the weekend, quality to see a reg take down the top prize - and vul SirGary on coming out the wrong side of the HU game.
  • shakinacesshakinaces Member Posts: 1,590
    edited December 2014
    Meh that bad run I feared did catch up with me with some pretty filthy rivers that have stacked me a few times, all due though I'm sure lol... luckily only left me about £20 or so down.

    BR itself down to a bit over £2.5k after I needed to withdraw £500 for some life stuff. A step back I suppose. Sigh. No NL1000MC for another few weeks....

    Sky CC did their bit to help though, a free £10 to pay for DTD night just because I couldn't get into a freeroll. Being a nit has some small benefits sometime.

    Still can't really get my head around tournaments... this bit from pokerplayer365 may give me somewhere to start trying to improve (as I have no clue at the moment lol)

    Tournament play is much more dynamic than cash game play for all of the above reasons. This can be very confusing for the specialised cash game player, who is used to opening a lot and playing a certain way with 100 big blinds. Cash game players will tend to open too much and call three-bets tighter than is optimal.

    The two words in bold sum it up perfectly for me :)

    In the interim, back to NL2 with some freebie money at a different site while I play about with Hold Em manager... hopefully Sky gets busier during the day time closer to Christmas... I need something to stop me from getting involved with shopping or chores...
  • shakinacesshakinaces Member Posts: 1,590
    edited January 2015
    Huh, I didn't realise how long I'd been off work for until I came to search for this thread.

    With the way of the footballing world, it felt like a good idea not to post so much.  Can't wait to see us play Derby again shortly, it'll be... fun? :/ Just hope that the owners let Psycho have time to fix it and actually give us a bit of consistency for a change... too much chopping and changing and we'll never get back above the sheep :(

    Given it was Christmas I was mostly too drunk to play poker at any time the games may have been any good. Barely scraped over 1,200pts for December which I think was my lowest since I started this thread.

    I played a fair amount of fast-fold-type poker on some other sites during daytimes... which I think has probably regressed my ability at poker (which, let's be honest, wasn't that high to start with). Will need to put that to bed and concentrate on Sky again for now, take my money and run!

    Somehow, mainly thanks to Sky freerolls, I ended up in the black from tournaments for every month I played in 2014 - albeit very minimal - so that sets me a benchmark for 2015.

    Which for 2015 leaves me wanting to:

    > Focus on improving my MTT play

    /> Read through winning tournaments one hand a time, due in the post any day, and making notes that can be applicable to my game (rather than flicking through before I fall asleep each night and not actually taking much in)

    /> Getting a winner result in any DTD during the year... even better if it can help to contribute to Outlaws getting a winning month along the way!

    /> Sorting a volume-type target to start from 1st Feb, after I've done a bit of studying, hopefully leading to a profitable rest of the year...

    Away from poker I also need to throw more money at my house. I'm now sick of not having a proper space to relax / play poker in or a usable garden to go and drink / relax in during the small window of sunny weather we get in this country.

    I'm sure it can only help me play better if I'm not be sitting in the middle of a building site....

    Anyway... if anyone ever stumbles across this thread and reads it... all and any hints or tips for how not to suck at tournaments would be gratefully received :)
  • shakinacesshakinaces Member Posts: 1,590
    edited January 2015
    Another failed attempt to have a good run at DTD games... although I think finishing top 40 in all 3 is probably a PB, which kind of sums up how much improvement I still have to make.

    Winning tournaments one hand at a time arrived in the post yesterday and will be my main source of reading for the next couple of weeks... If it seems to be sinking in / improving my play then I can get the follow up as well and see if I can get from 'utter garbage' to 'vaguely competitive' over the next couple of months :)

    Biggest tilt last night was how much lag I was suffering with just 4 tables running. I lost count of how many times I timed out of hands as a result. Totally sick of Windows now.

    I should have had a new macbook by now, but the lovely Halifax had temp stopped my card due to some tech glitch and I only found out at the front of a long queue in John Lewis, leaving me looking like some sort of skint waster that had to walk past said queue getting a number of looks of sadness/pity.

    That's what I get for having accounts with such poor providers. Should stick to Nationwide for everything.

    Still, hopefully will get time to go back and pick one up asap and get back to only having my own poor play to blame for lack of MTT results (although 'dodgy wifi connection' is always an excuse to have in reserve).
  • shakinacesshakinaces Member Posts: 1,590
    edited January 2015
    pwned :(

    I'm never going to master this bluffing malarkey... this was my first hand at the table, didn't recognise the other person, DTD1 last night.  I did change the bet size to all-in but just couldn't convince myself that I'd be getting 3b bluffed and didn't want to duck out in such a shameful way if oppo insta-called with a 6.

    It's this sort of stack size where I think I make most of my mistakes. With 100bb at cash I can raise here and figure to be well ahead of a limpers range, knowing they'll likely call my raise, whereas in a tourni it feels like a waste of chips to bump it up pre and then be out of position with only 17-18 BB of wriggle room...
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    xxxSmall blind  300.00 300.00 31562.50
    shakinaces Big blind  600.00 900.00 14241.50
      Your hole cards
    • A
    • 5
         
    xxxFold     
    got meCall  600.00 1500.00 20880.00
    xxxFold     
    xxxFold     
    shakinaces Check     
    Flop
       
    • K
    • 6
    • 6
         
    shakinaces Check     
    got meBet  600.00 2100.00 20280.00
    shakinaces Raise  1800.00 3900.00 12441.50
    got meRaise  2400.00 6300.00 17880.00
    shakinaces Fold     
    got meShow
    • Q
    • 10
       
    got meWin  5100.00  22980.00
    got meReturn  1200.00 0.00 24180.00
  • LARSON7LARSON7 Member Posts: 4,495
    edited January 2015
    In Response to Re: Further misadventures of a fish at the cash tables:
    pwned :( I'm never going to master this bluffing malarkey... this was my first hand at the table, didn't recognise the other person, DTD1 last night.  I did change the bet size to all-in but just couldn't convince myself that I'd be getting 3b bluffed and didn't want to duck out in such a shameful way if oppo insta-called with a 6. It's this sort of stack size where I think I make most of my mistakes. With 100bb at cash I can raise here and figure to be well ahead of a limpers range, knowing they'll likely call my raise, whereas in a tourni it feels like a waste of chips to bump it up pre and then be out of position with only 17-18 BB of wriggle room... Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance xxx Small blind   300.00 300.00 31562.50 shakinaces Big blind   600.00 900.00 14241.50   Your hole cards A 5       xxx Fold         got me Call   600.00 1500.00 20880.00 xxx Fold         xxx Fold         shakinaces Check         Flop     K 6 6       shakinaces Check         got me Bet   600.00 2100.00 20280.00 shakinaces Raise   1800.00 3900.00 12441.50 got me Raise   2400.00 6300.00 17880.00 shakinaces Fold         got me Show Q 10       got me Win   5100.00   22980.00 got me Return   1200.00 0.00 24180.00
    Posted by shakinaces

    Interesting hand! Think I just check there 2 pre. On  the flop maybe just lead, don't think we are check raising a value hand when no1 has the betting lead pre. Really interesting villains click back 3 bet. All the best in the ny

  • CraigSG1CraigSG1 Member Posts: 1,832
    edited January 2015
    If that book series you are reading now doesn't improve your MTT play then nothing will. Trust me when I say you will learn so much and will see dividends almost emidiatley. 

    As for the hand above I think check calling is best if you want to continue with the hand but IMO I dont think its worth fighting over OOP against an unknown hand range.

    Good luck with the new Mac. It will last for years and years with no detioration. Unlike PC's.
  • 77Chris9177Chris91 Member Posts: 375
    edited January 2015
    In Response to Re: Further misadventures of a fish at the cash tables:
    pwned :( I'm never going to master this bluffing malarkey... this was my first hand at the table, didn't recognise the other person, DTD1 last night.  I did change the bet size to all-in but just couldn't convince myself that I'd be getting 3b bluffed and didn't want to duck out in such a shameful way if oppo insta-called with a 6. It's this sort of stack size where I think I make most of my mistakes. With 100bb at cash I can raise here and figure to be well ahead of a limpers range, knowing they'll likely call my raise, whereas in a tourni it feels like a waste of chips to bump it up pre and then be out of position with only 17-18 BB of wriggle room... Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance xxx Small blind   300.00 300.00 31562.50 shakinaces Big blind   600.00 900.00 14241.50   Your hole cards A 5       xxx Fold         got me Call   600.00 1500.00 20880.00 xxx Fold         xxx Fold         shakinaces Check         Flop     K 6 6       shakinaces Check         got me Bet   600.00 2100.00 20280.00 shakinaces Raise   1800.00 3900.00 12441.50 got me Raise   2400.00 6300.00 17880.00 shakinaces Fold         got me Show Q 10       got me Win   5100.00   22980.00 got me Return   1200.00 0.00 24180.00
    Posted by shakinaces
    Don't really get why you start bluffing here... If you think your ahead here just call the flop. A5 in a limped pot has decent showdown value heads up.

  • shakinacesshakinaces Member Posts: 1,590
    edited January 2015

    I just figured that in a limped pot, it would be unlikely oppo would have a 6 or a K whereas as BB this could be part of my range... that's what led me to nearly 4b shove the flop but I bottled it.

    I'm not sure I want to be calling OOP as if they keep firing I could easily be behind / allow them to pick up a pair... I think I'd personally have preferred to lead on the flop now.

    Either way, still played it poorly in the first place!

    Having read through 20 or so hands of '1 hand at a time', I'm amazed by how much limping is being recommended / and no 3-betting marginally big hands (QQ-TT and AK-AJ).

    Runs at odds with my expectations from cash games, but maybe something to try more in MTT to see how it works. Still feels a bit weak to be almost set-mining with QQ, say, but appreciate that the hidden nature of the hand makes an early double or treble up a lot more likely when you do flop a Q / less sigh when you get a random A-high flop.

    I more question how  close the ranges of oppos in a £2.30 BH compare to those of the $240 type BI event mind...

  • 77Chris9177Chris91 Member Posts: 375
    edited January 2015
    In Response to Re: Further misadventures of a fish at the cash tables:
    I just figured that in a limped pot, it would be unlikely oppo would have a 6 or a K whereas as BB this could be part of my range... that's what led me to nearly 4b shove the flop but I bottled it. I'm not sure I want to be calling OOP as if they keep firing I could easily be behind / allow them to pick up a pair... I think I'd personally have preferred to lead on the flop now. Either way, still played it poorly in the first place! Having read through 20 or so hands of '1 hand at a time', I'm amazed by how much limping is being recommended / and no 3-betting marginally big hands (QQ-TT and AK-AJ). Runs at odds with my expectations from cash games, but maybe something to try more in MTT to see how it works. Still feels a bit weak to be almost set-mining with QQ, say, but appreciate that the hidden nature of the hand makes an early double or treble up a lot more likely when you do flop a Q / less sigh when you get a random A-high flop. I more question how  close the ranges of oppos in a £2.30 BH compare to those of the $240 type BI event mind...
    Posted by shakinaces
    Your right it's unlikely oppo has a K or a 6. But if that's the case than your A5 is ahead a lot of the time. For the same reasons a 4-bet shove would have been bad. When villain 3-bets the flop his range is pretty much 6x and air. By 4-bet shoving your folding out all the hands you beat and getting snapped when your effectively drawing dead.

    Craig pretty much summed it up above. If your going to continue c/c is the best option imo. With it being the first hand at the table and having no info about villains limping range folding is probably best.
  • shakinacesshakinaces Member Posts: 1,590
    edited January 2015

    Yeah I don't disagree that c/f is the sensible line most (if not all) the time.

    My betting decision (whether that be leading or raising) is to prevent oppo from realising his equity. 

    If he has any two cards then he'll have what, 20-25% equity on the flop? Out-drawing me 1 in ever 4 times makes me feel like it's way too pricey to be just calling with A-high... especially when he's also going to have power to bluff (thanks to position) or could already have me drawing dead (if he really does have a 6).

    Therefore I'm betting for protection in the same way I may do with (say) a mid pocket pair that doesn't want to let people have a free shot at hitting an overcard, or a low pocket pair that doesn't want to be forfeited / let them hit a overcard.

    To that end, I think Larson's line makes sense as I can chuck out a lead of 800-900 and likely get to the same result as I've paid 1800 to do in this hand (ie he folds, happy days, he raises and I give credit for being crushed and fold)

    With a cash perspective I read/watched lots of stuff on winning without showdown at the start of December. I have almost certainly now gotten too aggro in limped pots / orphaned pots, particularly with the lower limit player tendency to call too much (ie I'm now bluffing way too much for the levels I'm playing).

  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited January 2015
    In Response to .:
    Yeah I don't disagree that c/f is the sensible line most (if not all) the time. My betting decision (whether that be leading or raising) is to prevent oppo from realising his equity.  If he has any two cards then he'll have what, 20-25% equity on the flop? Out-drawing me 1 in ever 4 times makes me feel like it's way too pricey to be just calling with A-high... especially when he's also going to have power to bluff (thanks to position) or could already have me drawing dead (if he really does have a 6). Therefore I'm betting for protection in the same way I may do with (say) a mid pocket pair that doesn't want to let people have a free shot at hitting an overcard, or a low pocket pair that doesn't want to be forfeited / let them hit a overcard. To that end, I think Larson's line makes sense as I can chuck out a lead of 800-900 and likely get to the same result as I've paid 1800 to do in this hand (ie he folds, happy days, he raises and I give credit for being crushed and fold) With a cash perspective I read/watched lots of stuff on winning without showdown at the start of December. I have almost certainly now gotten too aggro in limped pots / orphaned pots, particularly with the lower limit player tendency to call too much (ie I'm now bluffing way too much for the levels I'm playing).
    Posted by shakinaces
    I think that's quite exploitable tbh.

    Think c/c is by far the best line vs a complete unknown player and range. I'd figure A high to be the best hand at present, but it's gonna be difficult to play OOP. Certainly call one and see what he does on the turn. May well c/c down on favourable run outs.

  • shakinacesshakinaces Member Posts: 1,590
    edited January 2015
    Thanks H - I suppose my lack of ability sees it more as a waste of chips to be calling here (and would c/f if not betting), because a limpers range is going to be so wide that I'm going to have almost no idea of what a favourable run out could be...

    Even if I hit my ace I could just be calling to split, and oppo could easily hit a pair with his hole cards (if I'm not already crushed).

    Were I a better player, or even if I knew the oppo, maybe it makes it easier to be calling down with A-high?

    I was out for a family dinner last night, so my limited poker was seeing this clip on youtube:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc9I7DJqRWc

    I'm a fish, I get the logic why the guy with 10s shouldn't have raised, but I still think the only reason I wouldn't go bust here is because it's hand 1 of the WSOP ME and I'd bottle calling with the 5th nuts. If this was any tournament I could afford to buy in to today, I'm 100% going skint here as well.

    I also believe a short coaching video of my play on Sky is now available on t'internet. So I have that to look forward to this evening. Probably watching with a lot of wincing on my face :/
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