I have been following this great thread since the start, I haven't posted as the poker is way above my level, many thanks for starting this and carrying it on, just wanted to say how much I and others ( if I can be so bold as to speak for them) enjoy it.
It is a real eye opener as to the thought process that happens during the hands, I too have a thought process when I play online which goes something like " I wonder if the pug will stop hiding the ball under the settee long enough for me to play this hand" type of thing
One small point on the last hand, when you start with 250k and he shoves for 60k you end up with 265k, are these totals "round about that amount" or have I in my naivety missed something really obvious?
Button raised to 20K, I re-raise to 55K in the small blind, BB folds, button shoves, I fold.
My Thoughts:
PRE_FLOP:
I decide to 3bet with 22, as the button's range is quite wide here. Obviously I'm hoping to just take it down. When the button shoves (he has me covered), it's an easy fold as clearly I'm racing at best and there are plenty of higher pocket pairs in my opponents range.
Hi Graham, A short but very interesting hand. I am unsure how best to play small pairs from the blinds. It will be interesting to see what others think too.
Effectively this raise is a bluff hoping for a fold from the button and also hoping the BB doesn't wake up with a hand. If you are raised you are folding and if he flats you are still in a very poor spot unless you hit.
Obviously any reads you have on the button will influence your decision but all things being equal would it not be better to raise with high cards even a raggy Ace which benefits from card elimination to reduce the chance of the button actually having a hand?
You bet nearly 1/6th of your stack. How low a stack would you do this with?
What do you think the button 'flatting' range would be? He only needs to put 35,000 into a pot of 93,000 if my maths is right.
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: THREE MORE HANDS ADDED. RSCPC12 HAS JOINED THE TABLE :=) :
UKPC2016 FIFTIETH HAND: ================== Blinds 4,000/8,000 Antie 1,000 CHIP COUNT: 360K Starting Hand: 2s2h PRE-FLOP Hi Graham, A short but very interesting hand. I am unsure how best to play small pairs from the blinds. It will be interesting to see what others think too. Effectively this raise is a bluff hoping for a fold from the button and also hoping the BB doesn't wake up with a hand. If you are raised you are folding and if he flats you are still in a very poor spot unless you hit. Obviously any reads you have on the button will influence your decision but all things being equal would it not be better to raise with high cards even a raggy Ace which benefits from card elimination to reduce the chance of the button actually having a hand? You bet nearly 1/6th of your stack. How low a stack would you do this with? What do you think the button 'flatting' range would be? He only needs to put 35,000 into a pot of 93,000 if my maths is right. Thanks again for the thread. Posted by thisltedu
I dont think your in a poor position if he calls so long as your are comfortable on what flops to fire at (around 80% of flops would be sufficient to cbet at a guess)... if he calls the flop and a scare turn card hits most people go into there shell and give up on the hand but the reality is this is the perfect card to fire another barrell at....
Barelling is an art in my oppinion and your cards are close to irrelevant when the right card comes to keep firing
Would be interested to see how you would play it (flop dependent) if he flatted pre?
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: THREE MORE HANDS ADDED. RSCPC12 HAS JOINED THE TABLE :=) :
UKPC2016 FIFTIETH HAND: ================== Blinds 4,000/8,000 Antie 1,000 CHIP COUNT: 360K Starting Hand: 2s2h PRE-FLOP Hi Graham, A short but very interesting hand. I am unsure how best to play small pairs from the blinds. It will be interesting to see what others think too. Effectively this raise is a bluff hoping for a fold from the button and also hoping the BB doesn't wake up with a hand. If you are raised you are folding and if he flats you are still in a very poor spot unless you hit. Obviously any reads you have on the button will influence your decision but all things being equal would it not be better to raise with high cards even a raggy Ace which benefits from card elimination to reduce the chance of the button actually having a hand? You bet nearly 1/6th of your stack. How low a stack would you do this with? What do you think the button 'flatting' range would be? He only needs to put 35,000 into a pot of 93,000 if my maths is right. Thanks again for the thread. Posted by thisltedu
Hi Donald, thanks for the feedback.
Regarding 3betting with 22 in the SB, yes by re-raising here, I am effectively bluffing, and indeed there is a strong argument to 3bet with any two here when faced with a button raise. Especially if the button is an aggressive opener who often folds to 3bets and you've not been doing it too often. (unfortunately I can't recall the style of the button, but I must have felt there was a good chance he would fold)
In this circumstances I lost 51K more than if I folded, but I think both the BB and Button fold often enough to make it +ev longterm (as long as the opener is a "fold to 3bet" type)
In this spot I think the BB is folding between 90-95% of the time and often the button will fold too. I would not expect the button to call too often as imo, calling 3bets at this stage is not a great idea most of the time.
It's not so much the extra 35K that it would cost him. The problem comes if he hits the board in some way. Unless he has two pair+, he's never going to know where he is, and could either lose a lot more, or be bluffed off the winning hand.
I think one mistake that recreational players often make in the late stages of tournaments, is calling 3bets too often.
Happy to 4bet, happy to fold, but calling 3bets, whilst it may feel a "comfortable thing to do", can often end in tears when your top pair is out kicked or beaten by an over pair and you can't get away from it.
So I don't really advocate calling 3bets at the later stages. There are of course exceptions to this rule, players who know me well, know I rarely call 3bets, so will 3bet me wider. Whilst I would still prefer to four bet or fold, I do sometimes call against these players that know me well, due to metta game aspects, and the fact that they would not expect it, so they'd be 2nd guessing themselves, regarding the strength/type of hand I have.
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: THREE MORE HANDS ADDED. RSCPC12 HAS JOINED THE TABLE :=) : I dont think your in a poor position if he calls so long as your are comfortable on what flops to fire at (around 80% of flops would be sufficient to cbet at a guess)... if he calls the flop and a scare turn card hits most people go into there shell and give up on the hand but the reality is this is the perfect card to fire another barrell at.... Barelling is an art in my oppinion and your cards are close to irrelevant when the right card comes to keep firing Would be interested to see how you would play it (flop dependent) if he flatted pre? Posted by Itsover4u
Hi, Itsover4u, I just replied to Donald's question as you were writing this.
If he did call my 3bet I would Cbet most dry boards, clearly a board like 89J would be terrible and I would not continue. However, I would lead out on any King high or Ace high boards, or indeed low boards, especially if paired, like, 228, 337, etc. If he called the flop on a low board, and the turn was a King or an Ace, then certainly, I would fire again, but would slow down if it was a brick. (opponent dependant)
I think when you have 3bet pre, your opponent gives you much more credit than if it is just an open raise that has been called (there are just so many more monsters in your range). So C-Bets in a 3betted pot seem to be more successful than C-Bets from just a open raised pot.
Great explanation Graham. Helps me plug some of my leaks and opens up some opportunities. Looking at it from the buttons position. What would be your 4 bet/shove range in this hand? Many thanks, Donald Posted by thisltedu
That would depend on what the button thought my 3betting range was. (against a button raise)
However, if he had my 3betting range about right, then, as him, I would probably shove, AJs+, AQ+, 88+ and possibly peel with a small range of hands like, KQs, KJs.
I have an awkward stack size for him, as he can't 4bet fold, so this means his 4betting ranges need to be slightly tighter. If we were really deep and he could fold to a 5bet, then he could 4bet with ATs, AJo, KQs, 66,77 imo.
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: THREE MORE HANDS ADDED. RSCPC12 HAS JOINED THE TABLE :=) : Hi, Itsover4u, I just replied to Donald's question as you were writing this. If he did call my 3bet I would Cbet most dry boards, clearly a board like 89J would be terrible and I would not continue. However, I would lead out on any King high or Ace high boards, or indeed low boards, especially if paired, like, 228, 337, etc. If he called the flop on a low board, and the turn was a King or an Ace, then certainly, I would fire again, but would slow down if it was a brick. (opponent dependant) I think when you have 3bet pre, your opponent gives you much more credit than if it is just an open raise that has been called (there are just so many more monsters in your range). So C-Bets in a 3betted pot seem to be more successful than C-Bets from just a open raised pot. Hope this helps. Cheers, Graham Posted by StayOrGo
if this came out you would check right? considering your starting hand
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: THREE MORE HANDS ADDED. RSCPC12 HAS JOINED THE TABLE :=) : if this came out you would check right? considering your starting hand great read Graham thank you Posted by stokefc
Good point Stoke, change 228 for 449. My mind was on Cbetting in general and forgot I had pocket two's
And yes I would initially check if I flopped quads. :=) Well spotted
I raise UTG+1 to 18K with KJo and get called by Chris (rspca12) in the BB
FLOP: 9s,Ts,2c
Chris checks, I check
TURN: 9d
Chris checks, I bet 25k (into a pot of 48k), Chris calls
RIVER: Th
Chris checks, I check. Chris shows Q9s for a full house.
My Thoughts: PRE_FLOP: Slightly wide open from UTG+1, however, again it was close to the bubble, and things seemed to be tightening up a bit, so it seemed a reasonable open
FLOP: 9s,Ts,2c
I just checked back as there are a lot of hands that Chris calls with, so took the free card to see if I could improve.
TURN: 9d
Chris checks, so I decide to have a stab, and bet 25K. It was always my intention to bet the turn if Chris checks once again. (I'm sure Chris knew that)
RIVER: Th
Chris checks, and I check behind. I think even an Ace is calling me here, and my hand could be good if Chris had a hand like 8s7s, QJ or pocket pairs between 33-88 that got counterfeit. Although if Chris did have a hand like 87, QJ,33,44,55,66,77 or 88 he may have tryied a bluff on the river.
CHIP COUNT AFTER HAND: 245K My son Gary's (Limp2Lose) thoughts. I spoke with my son about this hand, and he prefers to lead out on the flop, then give up. He also thinks, that if I do check the flop, then I should also check the turn, as I am not repping much. He thinks if I had an over pair or a hand like, AT that I'd bet the flop because of the drawy board and that there are not many nine's in my range. So he feels that betting the turn after checking the flop, just looks very bluffy. It would be interesting to get Chris's thoughts on the hand. As always, feel free to post comments/discuss Cheers, G
With the 22 hand posted earlier I feel like it's pretty much the worst possible hand we can choose to 3bet bluff with. We have two low cards which makes it slightly more likely the opener is going to have a value hand, I'd be much happier if we had at least Ax or Kx to block some of his more nutted hands.
With the KJ hand I much prefer to cbet the flop. We have the strongest range here and can have plenty of overpairs and there's a lot of good turn cards for us, we can consider continuing betting on 7's 8's jacks queens kings and aces. After playing this as a check I'd feel inclined to check turn to and try to get to showdown, we can still have the best hand here and think we only fold out Chris' ace high's if we bet
With the 22 hand posted earlier I feel like it's pretty much the worst possible hand we can choose to 3bet bluff with. We have two low cards which makes it slightly more likely the opener is going to have a value hand, I'd be much happier if we had at least Ax or Kx to block some of his more nutted hands. With the KJ hand I much prefer to cbet the flop. We have the strongest range here and can have plenty of overpairs and there's a lot of good turn cards for us, we can consider continuing betting on 7's 8's jacks queens kings and aces. After playing this as a check I'd feel inclined to check turn to and try to get to showdown, we can still have the best hand here and think we only fold out Chris' ace high's if we bet Posted by FeelGroggy
Cheers for the feedback Danny, so do you fold 22 or call?
Regarding the KJ, it looks like you see this similar to how Gary does.
I still feel that there is too much in Chris's range that calls a flop bet, but do understand why people would want to bet the flop with a gutshot and two overs. I do also think that sometimes people can go in auto-pilot with C betting, and on this occasion, I decided to take the more passive route.
Having checked the flop, I bet the turn perhaps thinking that my KJ may be good and/or Chris may fold his rag Ace hands. Although I am coming round to thinking that having checked the flop, just checking the turn may have been better.
As it turned out, most ways that this is played, I'd probably lose the same. (I may have to call if I checked flop and turn and Chris bet river.)
I think its kind of awkward with the 22. Depending on stacks I might consider shoving but we're too deep for that. it plays so badly that it's going to be hard to profitably continue with it, unless we hit a rare set. I would probably just fold it
With the KJ hand I think we should bet as we can fold out better hands (ace highs) and maybe some weak pocket pairs and we can get him off a lot of his range on certain runouts. If we want to vb overpairs we should have bluffs and KJ here is a good one not only because it has decent equity anyway but we can fold out better hands and also win a big pot sometimes when we hit ( such as the Q in this exact hand)
Comments
Blinds 3,000/6,000 Antie 500
Blinds 3,000/6,000 Antie 500
CHIP COUNT AFTER HAND: 365K
As always, feel free to post comments/discuss
Cheers,
G
Blinds 4,000/8,000 Antie 1,000
if this came out you would check right? considering your starting hand
Blinds 4,000/8,000 Antie 1,000
PRE_FLOP:
Slightly wide open from UTG+1, however, again it was close to the bubble, and things seemed to be tightening up a bit, so it seemed a reasonable open
CHIP COUNT AFTER HAND: 245K
My son Gary's (Limp2Lose) thoughts.
I spoke with my son about this hand, and he prefers to lead out on the flop, then give up. He also thinks, that if I do check the flop, then I should also check the turn, as I am not repping much. He thinks if I had an over pair or a hand like, AT that I'd bet the flop because of the drawy board and that there are not many nine's in my range. So he feels that betting the turn after checking the flop, just looks very bluffy. It would be interesting to get Chris's thoughts on the hand.
As always, feel free to post comments/discuss
Cheers,
G