UTG (new guy to the table) limps, I raise UTG+2 to 35K with A9o it folds around to the UTG guy, who calls.
FLOP: 9h,8s,5c
UTG leads out 20K, I make it 80K and he folds.
My Thoughts:
PRE_FLOP:
Always tricky when a new guy joins the table and does something like limp UTG, you don't really know if he's trapping or is just a player who likes to limp. I decided to make it quite a big raise, hoping he will fold any marginal hands and if he is trapping, it's perhaps one way to find out.
FLOP: 9h,8s,5c
He leads out 20K, I decide to re-raise quite big (80K) hoping I am ahead with my with my top pair top kicker. Primarily to protect my hand as there was already enough in the pot just to take it down.
im pretty much never re raising with A9 against and UTG limp but thats just the way i play maybe it is a leak... id be much more inclined to raise a limp with A2to5 suited.
and A9 would be a muck against someone I have no reads on especially with havin the rest of the table to get through.
What is your thought process on raising with the A9? from what you posted it seems like raising was the only way you were going to play it and it was just the sizing that you needed to work out.
Post flop - would play exactly the same especially after raising. if he flatted would you put his range at most 9s or draws such as 10j?
im pretty much never re raising with A9 against and UTG limp but thats just the way i play maybe it is a leak... id be much more inclined to raise a limp with A2to5 suited. and A9 would be a muck against someone I have no reads on especially with havin the rest of the table to get through. What is your thought process on raising with the A9? from what you posted it seems like raising was the only way you were going to play it and it was just the sizing that you needed to work out. Post flop - would play exactly the same especially after raising. if he flatted would you put his range at most 9s or draws such as 10j? Posted by Itsover4u
Hi Itsover4u.
Thanks for your reply. Just to point out, my bet was a raise not a re-raise. If the UTG guy had raised then I would have folded my A9. However he only limped.
I probably play these hands more than most people do, from early table positions, as you would expect from someone with a PFR stat of 20%+ full ring.
So this is a fairly standard play for me. Regarding his range, assuming he's not trapping, all sorts of suited connectors and low pocket pairs (so sets were a worry), but I think with a set, he's probably check/raising rather than donk leading. For those unaware of the term "donk leading", this is not an insult, it's just a term used when someone leads out on the flop when they were not the aggressor pre flop.
yes so raise not re-raise. Would you ever consider folding here or is it an auto raise for you? I would be at the complete opposite end of the spectrum in this spot Posted by Itsover4u
Hi,
I may fold if I'm feeling particularly nitty, or if I am short stacked close to the bubble.
Or if the limper has a known propensity to limp/raise, or indeed if it was a very aggresive table with lots of 3 and 4 betting going on, but other than that it's just about OK for me UTG+2.
If anything, the limper gave me added incentive as there was an extra 10K to win if everyone folded.
One thing about these types of hands which I mentioned very early in the thread.
You can't expect a 30/25/10 player and a 10/8/5 player (VPIP/PFR/3bet) to agree on open raise ranges, it just won't happen. Neither is necessarily right or wrong, it just comes down to styles.
To me it's not a case, just of whether you raise with A9o UTG+2 or not, you need to understand the table dynamic first and then make a decision what to do with A9o.
Not saying you are a 10/8/5 player btw, just using it as an axample.
No I completely understand and my pre flop vpip is probably around 30/35 i just find myslef open raising alot tighther when the pot is limped. If I have a read on the opponent I would be punishing exactly like you did in the hand above. What I would like to know because im much to lazy to figure it out.... is..... Would raising ax against a limp be long term ptofitable? Posted by Itsover4u
Regarding your question above, my answer would be "it depends"
Most good questions have an "it depends" answer.
So what does it depend upon:
1) Knowledge of the limper (does he have a balanced limp/fold, limp/call and limp/raising range. If not what way does it favour. (With this opponent we had no such information))
2) What is my image like? How am I percieved by the rest of the table?
3) Are there agressive players on the button and in the blinds? Have they been 3betting much?
4) Stack size dynamics.
5) Proximity to bubble.
If you want a "blind" answer, where all of the above is unknown, lets say I just moved to the table and knew no-one, then I would say that A9 here would be the minimum Ax non-suited hand to do this with, and A6+ if suited, but you could also do it with 77+, KJs+, KQ, posibly 66. The reason I don't like A5 or less, even when suited, is that there are a lot of low pocket pairs, as well as lowish suited connectors in his range, and real raggy aces are not great against these.
In fact in this scenario, it is quite possible imo, that my opponent had a hand like 44,66,77, 97s, 87s, 86s, so having at least a 9 kicker here, was very important.
Firstly some information about the opponent immediately to my right. (Big Blind on this hand.)
He'd been on the table for about half an hour. In that time he had been very aggressive winning about 5 pots without losing any or even going to showdown.
It was quite impressive actually.
A good combination of 3betting pre and taking it down, raising and C-betting the flop and even check raising to take it down. He showed a plethora of pre and post flop aggression, and I made a mental note to be careful when tangling with this guy.
It is also very close to the bubble now. (about 3 more to players to go)
OK so on to the hand
Blinds 5,000/10,000 Antie 1,000
CHIP COUNT: 315K
Starting Hand: Qs,Qc
PRE-FLOP
I raise UTG to 22K with pocket queens and get called by the BB. (the player detailed above, he has about 800K)
FLOP: 3d,5d,7c
BB donk leads 20K, I re-raise to 70K, the BB calls
TURN: 2s
BB checks, I check
RIVER: Th
BB, ALL IN! (overbet the pot, effective 230K into a pot of 195K) WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
My Thoughts:
PRE_FLOP:
All pretty standard imo.
FLOP: 3d,5d,7c
Standard re-raise right?
TURN: 2s
I decide to check behind here, for pot control. Just in case he's slow playing a set, straight or two pair. Especially bearing in mind my mental note to be cautious with this guy, as he was a very good, aggressive player. And just being 2 or 3 players away from cashing after a full day and a half of intense poker.
RIVER: Th
Well so much for my idea of pot control. He puts me all in for my remaining 230K. My plan was to call a reasonable river bet, and still be in the tournament if I lose, but I can forget that now, he has me all in! HELP! what would you do?
CHIP COUNT AFTER HAND: ???
What would you do? Interesting hand, I'm sure you'd agree, all thoughts and opinions welcome.
He is uber-aggro. you checked on the turn. He is always going to bet the river. I call-if I intended to fold to an overbet then i would bet turn and check river, rather than other way round. Interesting hand.
He is uber-aggro. you checked on the turn. He is always going to bet the river. I call-if I intended to fold to an overbet then i would bet turn and check river, rather than other way round. Interesting hand. Posted by Essexphil
Hi Phil, I had to make some slight amendments to the details of the hand since your post.
I had a 2nd recording, which corrected some of the initial details. The main error in the first recording was that I said he checked the flop and I bet, where in fact he donk led 20K on the flop and I made it 70K and he called. So this clearly affected the size of pot and percieved hand strength etc. The details on the post are now correct. Not sure if that changes anything for you?
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 53RD HAND REVEALED. WHAT WOULD YOU DO? CAUTION, THIS HAND COULD SERIOUSLY DAMAGE YOUR WEALTH. : Hi Phil, I had to make some slight amendments to the details of the hand since your post. I had a 2nd recording, which corrected some of the initial details. The main error in the first recording was that I said he checked the flop and I bet, where in fact he donk led 20K on the flop and I made it 70K and he called. So this clearly affected the size of pot and percieved hand strength etc. The details on the post are now correct. Not sure if that changes anything for you? Cheers, G Posted by StayOrGo
No change. Feel he will shove with anything there (good or bad). You are (in my view) 50/50 to win the hand, and are getting far better odds to call. Might well be a fold in a DYM or qualifier, but not here....
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 53RD HAND REVEALED. WHAT WOULD YOU DO? CAUTION, THIS HAND COULD SERIOUSLY DAMAGE YOUR WEALTH. : No change. Feel he will shove with anything there (good or bad). You are (in my view) 50/50 to win the hand, and are getting far better odds to call. Might well be a fold in a DYM or qualifier, but not here.... Posted by Essexphil
Cheers Phil, I'll leave this open for a day or two for others to respond, as it is a key/interesting, spot that may generate some worthwhile discussions.
Firstly being honest, I would probably fold, as a rec who will hopefully get to this point one day, cashing would mean so much. No point in thinking long term if you dont know if/when you will be in a similar position again.
Looking at it more objectively, what is the correct play?
I think the key information here is the 800k stack of the opponent, the closeness of the bubble and the way they have been playing uber aggro without showdowns.
You have basically min raised and from BB I think this opponent will defend the BB widely. Hard to put them on a hand as they dont seem seem too concerned with what they hold, just whether they can get an opponent to fold.
From your utg open I think AK and pairs TT+ are in your range, cant see opponent putting you on a set and your reraise on the flop would tend to narrow your range to a decent overpair.
So do they want a call or are they trying to take the hand down with aggression giving the context of the tournament?
Only hands I am really worried about are A4 and TT. I cant see KK AA flatting pre (although it is possible). Flopped sets may check the turn hoping you will continue, but then with you checking back I would expect a value bet not an overbet on the river.
The A4 and TT I guess make more sense as the unlikely strong holdings that may get called by an overshove, made to look like a bluff from a missed flush/straight draw or simply taking advantage of perceived weakness from the turn check.
I think on balance it should be a call as there are many more bluffs than made hands in this spot.
Thanks fellas for the responses so far. I'll let a few more comments come in. Whilst we are waiting for the conclusion of this, I am also happy for people to comment on whether, indeed, I should have checked back on the turn? It was a marginal one. Should I have continued firing on the turn, or was checking back OK? Cheers, G Posted by StayOrGo
It depends why you were doing it. You were aware that the villain is bullying the table, and winning pots without revealing his cards. If you did it to induce the shove, great-if not, being in position, a bet on the turn and checking the river would (for me) be the optimal line
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 53RD HAND REVEALED. WHAT WOULD YOU DO? CAUTION, THIS HAND COULD SERIOUSLY DAMAGE YOUR WEALTH. : It depends why you were doing it. You were aware that the villain is bullying the table, and winning pots without revealing his cards. If you did it to induce the shove, great-if not, being in position, a bet on the turn and checking the river would (for me) be the optimal line Posted by Essexphil
My thought at the time was primarily for pot control against two pair+. Also if it was a flush draw, whilst it gives him a free card, if he hits, I wouldn't go broke on the river. There was also a thought, that by checking the turn, he would likely bluff a missed draw on the river, so there was an element of "next street" bluff inducing in the decision too.
Also, the way he had been playing, a check/raise on the turn was distinctly possible, which would put me in a very difficult spot. So I decided to check back, thus controlling the pot size, where the plan was to call a river bet on a brick river.
As it was, his all in on the river, didn't allow me the luxury of being able to call a river bet and still be in the tournament if I lost.
I'm not saying checking back on the turn was correct in this case, however the above fairly represents my thought process at the time.
I think if we fire the turn we are check calling the river most of the time - firing the turn would be my preffered option but I am pretty aggresive on most streets and feel I make better decision when I am leading / in control of the pot.
Checking certainly has its own benefits and I will use it against opponents such as the one mentioned above - it also works pretty well against me as I am a sucker for a check (its the hu cash player in me). Its also good for inducing bluffs and thin value bets on the river and in this spot I actually think checking is the better option (although it is not neccesarily what I would do) - what we dont consider when checking is the fact that the opponent overshoves on the river which is what makes this hand so interesting to me.
The check could certainly play a massively significant role in the opponents decision to shove this river hence why I would pretty much never be folding this spot.
I would logically put his range at any flush draw, 68, 10, jj, a5 with a diamond any any other pair that didnt make a set on the flop as he is 80bb deep.
Realistically what could beat you.... I would expect 10 10 to 3 bet pre (not always but as he was labelled as aggresive by you I would expect a 3 bet with 1010 80%+)
3s, 5s & 7s would make much more sense than 10 10.... but for me... no
3s 5s 7s would surely 3 bet your flop cbet. the board is draw heavy for any smallish pairs you may have raised and if you have a big hand... as you do.... he would be missing value. he checks the turn and you check for pot control.... river comes with what may as well be a blank and he shoves..... I would be intrested to know the timing of his shove (was it a snap shove, did he take a moment?)
The shove screams of him trying to steal the pot and missing a draw.
I apologise for the long post. I could be a million miles off here but this hand is great to analyse I love every single aspect of it and the physcological aspect the bubble brings with it.
I think if we fire the turn we are check calling the river most of the time - firing the turn would be my preffered option but I am pretty aggresive on most streets and feel I make better decision when I am leading / in control of the pot. Checking certainly has its own benefits and I will use it against opponents such as the one mentioned above - it also works pretty well against me as I am a sucker for a check (its the hu cash player in me). Its also good for inducing bluffs and thin value bets on the river and in this spot I actually think checking is the better option (although it is not neccesarily what I would do) - what we dont consider when checking is the fact that the opponent overshoves on the river which is what makes this hand so interesting to me. The check could certainly play a massively significant role in the opponents decision to shove this river hence why I would pretty much never be folding this spot. I would logically put his range at any flush draw, 68, 10, jj, a5 with a diamond and just about anything else that could of missed as he is 80bb deep Realistically what could beat you.... I would expect 10 10 to 3 bet pre (not always but as he was labelled as aggresive by you I would expect a 3 bet with 1010 80%+) 3s, 5s & 7s would make much more sense than 10 10.... but for me... no 3s 5s 7s would surely 3 bet your flop cbet. the board is draw heavy for any smallish pairs you may have raised and if you have a big hand... as you do.... he would be missing value. he checks the turn and you check for pot control.... river comes with what may as well be a blank and he shoves..... I would be intrested to know the timing of his shove (was it a snap shove, did he take a moment?)The shove screams of him trying to steal the pot and missing a draw. I apologise for the long post. I could be a million miles off here but this hand is great to analyse I love every single aspect of it and the physcological aspect the bubble brings with it. Posted by Itsover4u
Great response Itsover4u.
Regarding the above, it w as a measured 15 second or so, decision.
i would be going busto here im afraid hes running over the table ive got a hand ive gotta call if we win we,re comfortably itm got to make a stand i think hes bluffing if we win it shows him ive got balls of steel and make him think twice next time hes up against me , understand tho this is coming from a micro stakes perspective , very intresting this hand
Comments
Blinds 5,000/10,000 Antie 1,000
Blinds 5,000/10,000 Antie 1,000
Well so much for my idea of pot control. He puts me all in for my remaining 230K. My plan was to call a reasonable river bet, and still be in the tournament if I lose, but I can forget that now, he has me all in! HELP! what would you do?