I thought the hand that Chris posted was really very interesting, as were the various replies. I remember the hand vividly, more than any other hand I've played in the last 3 or 4 days, & I play some 30 to 35 games per night, but not for the reasons you might think. More on that later.
As it happens, I think both Chris & myself played the hand correctly. Remember, when we are short stacked, & the blinds are big, the parameters & ranges change significantly.
The dynamic was quite odd - one player had half the chips, the other 3 of us - Ger (who wisely got out of the way) Chris & I had the other 6,000 chips between us.
Blinds were 300-600, & within 1 minute of going 400-800.
I had 1,815 chips I think , & was in the blinds the next 2 hands. So I'm ALMOST forced to jam here, & my range can be, literally, anything. I happened to have a nice balanced hand, A-Q-7-4. It's VERY unlikely I can turn up with a hand this strong in this spot. It's a complete no-brainer for me to shove here, & I'm loving life.
Chris had 1,395 behind, plus his 300 in the SB. He had A-K-Q-3 with a suit. Again, a complete & utter no-brainer. He MUST get it in here.
As it happens, we both lost, but that's irrelevant. What we must try to do is the best thing in any specific situation. Just because we win or lose does not make it right or wrong. If we do the right thing in the right spots every time we'll be just fine in the long run, & losing this one does not change that. Over the course (in my case) of 30 games per night, or around 200 games per week, I'll make this play every single time if it arises, & I'll be +ev. Ditto Chris.
I think Chris & I BOTH did exactly the right thing.
(Note these are my personal observations, 100% not a criticism of anyone, but it's always good to talk, & all of us PLO8-ers are trying to improve collectively).
If we play enough of these, especially against the same sub-group of experienced PLO8 players, we can pretty well forecast what will happen in any given spot. We KNOW who will do what with what.
My hand (imo) played itself.
When Chris got it in behind me, before I even saw his hand, I knew I was in trouble - he MUST have a similar, probably better, balanced hand. So I now knew I was in a bit of trouble, & I was almost certainly on the wrong end of a 60-40 flip. No prob, it happens, & I might get lucky.
What happened next made my eyeballs pop out - the Big Stack came along. This really really shocked me. And I'm thinking, "sheesh, he must have good aces, but even so, I'd fold in his spot".
In fact, he had the very odd K-10-2-3. And he must KNOW that at least 2 of the Aces are out.
At this point, most would argue "he had the odds". And they would be perfectly & 100% correct - he did. But that completely misses the point.
Let's look at the upside & downside of his play.
What upside does he have? Very little, imo. He folds, & I bust Chris or Chris busts me. Either way, game over. oioi. That's it - fold to victory.
But what if Chris takes the low, & I take the high? Suddenly I have 2,700, Chris has the same, & Brian has around 4,000.
How much has Brian's chance of winning this improved or reduced now? He was a "lock" before this hand, now he's back in the mix, & it's anyone's game. His chances of winning are substantially reduced. And there was no upside, as he was near guaranteed the win already.
I also try very hard NEVER to double up a competent player un-necessarily. And both Chris & I are "competent". Give us a 2xUp at your peril.
What I'm saying is that I just see a lot more downside than upside here. When we have half the chips 4 handed, if we ever lose from here we should shoot ourselves. We are locked, we don't need to do anything. We just let the shorties fight amongst themselves, whilst we anticipate our guaranteed win & concentrate on other games. It's NOT an MTT, it's a DYM. 1st, 2nd & 3rd all get the same. Why expose ourselves to the risk of losing a game we have locked?
We all play the game our own way, & that's great. Me, I'm never getting involved here in a month of wet Sundays. I'm actually folding bad aces, too. I don't need to do anything, or expose my lovely stack to any risk.
I'd be interested in what others think about this - not to diss Brian, not at all - but just to learn from each other.
Again only a few games played tonight, gonna head off and sort some stuff for tomorrow, More than happy the way things are going still. BR is going up everynight, albeit slightly but im not caring. only a few days ago i was down to £12, its now hit over £50 mark, and thats just on the DYM'S only. I never thought id say it but i have no intention of reging a NLH game and its weird to type that as i love the game, but having so much fun with this and seems to be going well im just going to keep plodding along hoopefully with same results coming in. I would like to play some mtts, but think ill stick with £1.10 ones and just keep with the one table as i think 2 will throw me off. hopwfully the BR will increae and ill mabye start playing 1 or 2 £5.50 games but dont have a target in mind yet to really think about bashing anything higher than the £3.30's seem to be having a good run in them as i will post the table below. well ill mabye see some of you at the tables tomorrow or mabye get 1 game in before bed. PLO8 DYM WON LOST PLAYED 0.60 1 1 1.15 1 1 2.25 6 1 7 3.30 26 9 35 5.50 1 1 TOTAL 34 11 45 Posted by Chris_Mc
Tremendous results, Chris, & it looks like we have another convert to the fun game. And it is definitely easier to win, or not lose as much, in PLO8 compared to NLH.
Word of warning though - you can't expect that win rate to hold up long term - if you can, then you are a phenom.
If you can maintain a 60% win rate (at level stakes) you'll win plenty of dough.
Now, the reason I so vividly remember this hand. (Note these are my personal observations, 100% not a criticism of anyone, but it's always good to talk, & all of us PLO8-ers are trying to improve collectively). If we play enough of these, especially against the same sub-group of experienced PLO8 players, we can pretty well forecast what will happen in any given spot. We KNOW who will do what with what. My hand (imo) played itself. When Chris got it in behind me, before I even saw his hand, I knew I was in trouble - he MUST have a similar, probably better, balanced hand. So I now knew I was in a bit of trouble, & I was almost certainly on the wrong end of a 60-40 flip. No prob, it happens, & I might get lucky. What happened next made my eyeballs pop out - the Big Stack came along. This really really shocked me. And I'm thinking, "sheesh, he must have good aces, but even so, I'd fold in his spot". In fact, he had the very odd K-10-2-3. And he must KNOW that at least 2 of the Aces are out. At this point, most would argue "he had the odds". And they would be perfectly & 100% correct - he did. But that completely misses the point. Let's look at the upside & downside of his play. What upside does he have? Very little, imo. He folds, & I bust Chris or Chris busts me. Either way, game over. oioi. That's it - fold to victory. But what if Chris takes the low, & I take the high? Suddenly I have 2,700, Chris has the same, & Brian has around 4,000. How much has Brian's chance of winning this improved or reduced now? He was a "lock" before this hand, now he's back in the mix, & it's anyone's game. His chances of winning are substantially reduced. And there was no upside, as he was near guaranteed the win already. I also try very hard NEVER to double up a competent player un-necessarily. And both Chris & I are "competent". Give us a 2xUp at your peril. What I'm saying is that I just see a lot more downside than upside here. When we have half the chips 4 handed, if we ever lose from here we should shoot ourselves. We are locked, we don't need to do anything. We just let the shorties fight amongst themselves, whilst we anticipate our guaranteed win & concentrate on other games. It's NOT an MTT, it's a DYM . 1st, 2nd & 3rd all get the same. Why expose ourselves to the risk of losing a game we have locked? We all play the game our own way, & that's great. Me, I'm never getting involved here in a month of wet Sundays. I'm actually folding bad aces, too. I don't need to do anything, or expose my lovely stack to any risk. I'd be interested in what others think about this - not to diss Brian, not at all - but just to learn from each other. Posted by Tikay10
sometimes players do strange things just played in the lunchtime £3er down to four players and one has been away for a while gentleman 4 has the chance to destroy the away player who has one bb + 80 chips he runs the clock down and checks loses to the away player then gentleman 4 plays against the chippy and loses three get paid morally i dont think he would of done anything wrong raising the away player but fair play to him
I certainly wouldn't be calling one of Tikay's all-ins with that hand, I'd need at least the ace to be suited or the 3 to be a 2 to call him. Posted by FCHD
I would! Actually, I would have broken land speed records in calling! Then, I would have looked at my hand! !
So, a losing night last night, and i suspect i will have many more only played the 6, won 2 lost 4. Still happy with my stats and the way i played...i think lol.
Apart from the first game where i donated a good part of my stack which could have been very easily avoided. CURIOSITY!!
2nd game got it in 3 times with ACES.. but poor ACES. and was up against better ACEA on the 3 of them. Still loving it though.. just hoped my losing night wasn't going to appear for at least another 2-3 years. not a massive loss by any means as the game ive played in 2 weeks peopla play nearly per night, but i just cant commit to that much.
bearing in mind i am only playing the 1 table at a tim for now, as i feel one need 100% attention whilst i have some TV on in the backround.....
now onto the TV on THE BACKROUND
COSMOS
A SPACETIME ODYSSEY
This show is currently on netflix and available on youtube, will post some links at the end.
I have seen this series a few times now and still love every minute and seem to learn more every episode, It is based on the origanal series by carl segan. Cosmos a personal voyage, It is show about u got it the cosmos... the universe... life .....anything and everything.. how why ...what lol stars planets, atoms cells and much much much more.
The new show is presented by Neil deGrasse Tyson, (the modern day carl segan) and can watch this guy for hours on end about how he explains just about everything.
Now if your into this sort of thing or have any interest in the universe i reccommend u watch this show ASAP, I sit glued to this show and prob not the best thing while playing my plo8 but the stuff u learn about is mind boggling.
In the first episode he explains just how long the univers is been around, he sqeezes the universe into a calender year (cosmic callender). Big Bang jan 1st 00:01 to the modern day today dec 31st 00:00...... humans only evolved in the last hour of the last day... All of recorded history about us... is only in the last 14 seconds !!!! 14 seconds lol !!!! There is light still hitting earth that when it started its travel our galaxy wasnt even around !!! and we have been using science in the last 1 second!!!!!
i love the show, it shows how inventors, isaac newton, just one person mentioned and the things he done in his time is unbelievable... AND MANY MANY MORE...
tardigrades (water bear)...... another thing i had never heard of. and animal thats survived all mass extinctions.... the only animal to do so, can survive in space also....
the show is full of amazing facts and urge you to have a look if you have sort of interest in this sort of "star stuff" as its called. ill leave a couple of links below and see what you think....
In Response to Re: ----Highs Lows & Scoopio's---- : I would! Actually, I would have broken land speed records in calling! Then, I would have looked at my hand! ! ps. !!! Posted by Macacgirl1
So, on a poor streak at the minute... deep breaths, chilling mentioned above...
i tend to say gl to all at table every game every night, just one of those things, nice and friendly and try not to let things bother me. even this little losing streak at the minute, it was going to happen. but mianly and importantly... i still look forward to reging the next game.
two hands below whcih have bothered me tonight,
hand 1
1st off, i say gd lk in chat box... with the added part..... mainly to me.. as things havent went that smooth lol. Get dealt the ACES ok there not the greatest but hey its aces... i have this gut feeling im losing after the flop and with thje flush draw as well i make the call and BOSH.... out first hand.
HAND 2
This one here.. well ... i feel its not bad, not a suited ace... but i still minclick it, then the re-raise... im pretty sure im normally calling here.. but just thought im losing.. little voices saying, "you're losing, even if your ahead.. you're still losing." theres been a few hands like this tonight laid down, even bette than this and just feel thats the way its been going. anyway.. still smiling just got one back there and in the middle of the other.
so will continue soldiering on and get myself back on track, going back to type gl in the chatbox now, havent done it yet.. plus ajmilton (plo8 champ is here) so have to go concentrate.
Im a tad slow on this just reading the previous hand now. I think you were right to call Chris, the blinds were too big to wait for a better hand. Its not a straight forward call but because the blinds are so big Tikay could shove with a widish range here. The other thing to consider is churchys possibilities of calling which I think are quite high considering his style of play (certainly not a criticism as it is different styles that make the game so interesting). Also you would think the chances of churchy calling after you did would significantly reduce.
Anyhow I would have called because if your gonna lose at least lose with a good hand, nothing worse than blinding out and being forced all in with rubbish.
well mangaed to claw the last 3 games back, with last game being v-good fun. one running away with it leaving the remaining 5 fighting for our lives from the get go lol.
Going out tomorrow night for a friendly cash game. so hopefully goes well. no drinking though as working saturday through in edinburgh for truckfest!
So small update on how things are going, not played as many games in last couple of days, been busy with new job position, new daughter and when i get a chance playin this new game lol. Lots of new's. But enjoying all of them. New postion at work is different from what i was doing before, but it a new challeng and hopefully it works out. I work for a training company and have done since leaving the Army in 2010, started of as hgv instructor then was trained up on other aspects from forklifts to HIAB'S to CPC classroom based courses. Then last year was givinn a new rolas an SVQ/NVQ Assesor, dealing with modern apprecticeships in Driving Goods Vehicles and Warehousing. Was a great and refreshing change and its great to be able to do all these different things. Then a couple of weeks ago was asked again if i fancied a change and to take on a new role, I dont like saying no to challenges so accepted. The new role is selling the svq's... i say sell they are free.. the hard part is to get new and companies that are interested in investing in their staff.. thats the hard part. But so far so good and hopefully works out as i am enjoying the role......Anyone reading this in the transport and logistic buisness in scotland.. dont be scraed to get in touch . Anyway onto the PLO8, one hand to discuss, was lat night in a £3.30, its not aimed at anyones play other than my own, it was on the bubble so 4 remaining and so far ive found so far picking your spots at this point is a massive part of plo8. and its normally aroun 300/600 and we dont like limping, i need to be carefull when im getting my stack in, even if im going for the steal i like to have a decent holding in my hand. Now churchy was running riot if i remeber building a nice big stack and i was up and down like a yo yo, a high pot her... a low pot there..... just surviving. the hand im goin to post is where 3 of us get it in and i come 4th and game ends. Should i be getting my stack in here or just fold and hope big stack calls and takes it........... Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance Chris_Mc Small blind 300.00 300.00 1395.00 churchy18 Big blind 600.00 900.00 6110.00 Your hole cards K 3 Q A tikay1 All-in 1815.00 2715.00 0.00 gerardirl Fold Chris_Mc All-in 1395.00 4110.00 0.00 churchy18 Call 1215.00 5325.00 4895.00 Chris_Mc Show K 3 Q A churchy18 Show K 10 2 3 tikay1 Show 4 7 A Q Flop Q 8 J Turn A River 6 churchy18 Win high Straight to the Ace 2662.50 7557.50 churchy18 Win low 8-low 2662.50 10220.00 Posted by Chris_Mc
Hi chris and welcome to the mad world of plopping( looking forward to reading this and markycashs diary some hate them i like them and good luck.
The hand above for me with the stack i had was an easy call whether a dym or mtt the 2 short stacks are all in its my bb i have 9 bbs behind and the raise is 2 bbs to cover 2 players and i only need 1 to bust.
Versus both tikay and you straight away im thinking both have at least 2 aces between you so if a ace came it straight away threw the lo on its head(both have a2/a3) and brings my 23 into play i have good each way value and also the fact i will still have nearly half the chips in play is it really a hand to fold in that position?
Would like to hear eons,markycashs hotwheels & suzy666 (come on suzy you know you want too :P pretty sure i am not the only one intrested in your thoughts on this hand(hint hint) as those 4 have very different styles of play and reasoning in how they play certain hands and i and any other ploppers should take bits from the 4(and the 2 names below) of those players replies if and when they do!
Would also have asked gerardirl/hendrik62 but they have both already replied in the thread what i would ask in my postion and knowing both players and the likely starting hands they would play would you call or fold in my position?
Good luck with the diary hopefully i will share a few tables with you soon all the best brian plop on people.
Folding your hand in that spot all day long churchy.
As long as it is not a split pot it's game over anyway if you fold.
KQ23 can be a great hand early doors if we get in cheap but even then hard to scoopio with as if the A does come in to counterfeit opponents low it also gives them top pair so we need to hit big to scoop.
In Response to Re: ----Highs Lows & Scoopio's---- : Hi chris and welcome to the mad world of plopping( looking forward to reading this and markycashs diary some hate them i like them and good luck. The hand above for me with the stack i had was an easy call whether a dym or mtt the 2 short stacks are all in its my bb i have 9 bbs behind and the raise is 2 bbs to cover 2 players and i only need 1 to bust. Versus both tikay and you straight away im thinking both have at least 2 aces between you so if a ace came it straight away threw the lo on its head(both have a2/a3) and brings my 23 into play i have good each way value and also the fact i will still have nearly half the chips in play is it really a hand to fold in that position? Would like to hear eons,markycashs hotwheels & suzy666 (come on suzy you know you want too :P pretty sure i am not the only one intrested in your thoughts on this hand(hint hint) as those 4 have very different styles of play and reasoning in how they play certain hands and i and any other ploppers should take bits from the 4(and the 2 names below) of those players replies if and when they do! Would also have asked gerardirl/hendrik62 but they have both already replied in the thread what i would ask in my postion and knowing both players and the likely starting hands they would play would you call or fold in my position? Good luck with the diary hopefully i will share a few tables with you soon all the best brian plop on people. Posted by churchy18
This is absolutely key to this play, I can completely understand why people say fold, but I also see merit in this call and without giving up too much I think this paragraph explains why.
Me personally, I call all day if I am only up against UTG, with Chris coming in as well it makes it more marginal, some days I would some days I wouldn't.
It is a really interesting spot and I would love to see someone run the numbers on these positions.
In Response to Re: ----Highs Lows & Scoopio's---- : Hi chris and welcome to the mad world of plopping( looking forward to reading this and markycashs diary some hate them i like them and good luck. The hand above for me with the stack i had was an easy call whether a dym or mtt the 2 short stacks are all in its my bb i have 9 bbs behind and the raise is 2 bbs to cover 2 players and i only need 1 to bust. Versus both tikay and you straight away im thinking both have at least 2 aces between you so if a ace came it straight away threw the lo on its head(both have a2/a3) and brings my 23 into play i have good each way value and also the fact i will still have nearly half the chips in play is it really a hand to fold in that position? Would like to hear eons,markycashs hotwheels & suzy666 (come on suzy you know you want too :P pretty sure i am not the only one intrested in your thoughts on this hand(hint hint) as those 4 have very different styles of play and reasoning in how they play certain hands and i and any other ploppers should take bits from the 4(and the 2 names below) of those players replies if and when they do! Would also have asked gerardirl/hendrik62 but they have both already replied in the thread what i would ask in my postion and knowing both players and the likely starting hands they would play would you call or fold in my position? Good luck with the diary hopefully i will share a few tables with you soon all the best brian plop on people. Posted by churchy18
So small update on how things are going, not played as many games in last couple of days, been busy with new job position, new daughter and when i get a chance playin this new game lol. Lots of new's. But enjoying all of them. New postion at work is different from what i was doing before, but it a new challeng and hopefully it works out. I work for a training company and have done since leaving the Army in 2010, started of as hgv instructor then was trained up on other aspects from forklifts to HIAB'S to CPC classroom based courses. Then last year was givinn a new rolas an SVQ/NVQ Assesor, dealing with modern apprecticeships in Driving Goods Vehicles and Warehousing. Was a great and refreshing change and its great to be able to do all these different things. Then a couple of weeks ago was asked again if i fancied a change and to take on a new role, I dont like saying no to challenges so accepted. The new role is selling the svq's... i say sell they are free.. the hard part is to get new and companies that are interested in investing in their staff.. thats the hard part. But so far so good and hopefully works out as i am enjoying the role......Anyone reading this in the transport and logistic buisness in scotland.. dont be scraed to get in touch . Anyway onto the PLO8, one hand to discuss, was lat night in a £3.30, its not aimed at anyones play other than my own, it was on the bubble so 4 remaining and so far ive found so far picking your spots at this point is a massive part of plo8. and its normally aroun 300/600 and we dont like limping, i need to be carefull when im getting my stack in, even if im going for the steal i like to have a decent holding in my hand. Now churchy was running riot if i remeber building a nice big stack and i was up and down like a yo yo, a high pot her... a low pot there..... just surviving. the hand im goin to post is where 3 of us get it in and i come 4th and game ends. Should i be getting my stack in here or just fold and hope big stack calls and takes it........... Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance Chris_Mc Small blind 300.00 300.00 1395.00 churchy18 Big blind 600.00 900.00 6110.00 Your hole cards K 3 Q A tikay1 All-in 1815.00 2715.00 0.00 gerardirl Fold Chris_Mc All-in 1395.00 4110.00 0.00 churchy18 Call 1215.00 5325.00 4895.00 Chris_Mc Show K 3 Q A churchy18 Show K 10 2 3 tikay1 Show 4 7 A Q Flop Q 8 J Turn A River 6 churchy18 Win high Straight to the Ace 2662.50 7557.50 churchy18 Win low 8-low 2662.50 10220.00 Posted by Chris_Mc
The fact that Tikay has you covered here would probably lead me to fold. I would expect Churchy to call in the BB with a very wide range here as he will be getting very favourable odds to call and try to bust the bubble and he has the stack to make the call.
If you had Tikay slightly covered I would instacall and hope Churchy comes along and checks it down postflop with the hope of busting the bubble. In that scenario even if you don't bust the bubble your hand plays well over a board and you may at least get a split pot however with these stacks I would probably sigh and fold.
Thanks you all fpor the feedback, its a great game, is there a right or wrong im not sure lol, all the different opinions on the hands just shows all the different ways of looking at the game.
Well time to get started for another night as the 1st table of the night is popping up. hopefull get on on ok, loking forward to few games befor the family get in and all aspects of peace and concentration is destroyed.
so table stands as follows, halfed my BR from 50 to 25, even though ive won more than ive lost the recent run im down a bit, not to bothered though as its all a learning curve and have no real target apart from hopefully at the end of the year have won more than lost. fingers crossed.
Evening all, still enjoying the plo8, not too much to post about, seem to have went right of my lucky little starting streak though. and the losses are defo adding up. so much so that i have had to deposit a little to keep playing. This doesnt bother me too much as its a hobby and i never put in what i cant afford to lose in the first place, i enjoy every game good or bad results... to an extent of course, hopefully in the long run of losses these results take a turn again and my br increases rather than steadily going down, although i got a nice few weeks of playing with what i started with.
I know ive made some silly errors and tonight hopefully i wont make to many, but if i do illl hopefully find it and post it. I am not sure im doing to much wrong and feel i do normally get it in good (reasonbly good). Not sure if the losing streak is affecting me a little as i feel im folding when i could be calling... but theres a voice in my head saying "you cant call that what will they think of you "
hoipefully get some hands up and can read some feedback to mabye catch and sort some leaks i may have, im no good with %'s odds exactly etc.... more of a gut player, if i feel its right then why is it not... reading some comments of forum players and plo8 players the depth they can go into amazes me, how people just have that natural ability to sit and explain... this is not my strong point. Its always just been more of gut natural feeeling for me to call or fold....
take coaching as an example.. i trialed this for a bit having some coaching of a player, and the way he could sit and explain everything about it just made me feel worse rather than better, not a reflection on the coach as he would take it slow and easy and explain everything, but just struggled to retain that info.. anyone else like this???
mabye im just not cut out for the technacl stuff lol and just stick to making sure theres an ace and a 2 in there.
so aims are, take some more notes on some hands i feel i may be leaking chips with and a little more concentration and a think about what im doing.
same goes for anyone reading this if u mabye see do something silly if you would ( but i suppose why would you) let me know!!
so below is my table and can see the change in it...
First up, I would not worry too much that your results have not been quite as good this week. In truth, your early results, when you were winning north of 70% of games played was near impossible to sustain. You are still winning almost 60% of your games, & even that may be a tad to high to sustain, but you have good basics, & I think you will settle around 57% or 58% imo, which is profitable.
Your numbers have been hurt a bit by losing the only 2 £5.50 games, too. Don't worry about that, the £3 & £5 player pools are virtually the same players.
There's more to these games than just knowledge of how to play PLO8 though - being DYM savvy, & aware of what is going on around you as to stack sizes etc is equally important.
You also need to look for "spots", in particular players who don't understand or grasp the different strategy required for a DYM compared to an MTT. The tactics are completely different. Also, look for players with big stacks who can't grasp the difference between a DYM & an MTT - these guys often open or look others up wide, as they seem to think more chips = bigger man sausage. You don't get a penny extra for ending a DYM with 10,000 chips, so think SURVIVAL not willy waving.
And when you get a big stack 4 handed, THINK about it. The game is locked, you don't need to mess about. Losing a DYM from that spot is a dreadful mistake & should never happen. Just play "savvy" poker.
You can learn by watching others, too - if you ever see helland or huuuuuume at the tables in PLO8 DYM's, try & watch them. Poetry in motion, they are effortlessly good & rarely waste a chip.
If you have any questions, or hand histories that you need help with, put them up & you'll get plenty of replies from the experienced players.
Comments
I thought the hand that Chris posted was really very interesting, as were the various replies. I remember the hand vividly, more than any other hand I've played in the last 3 or 4 days, & I play some 30 to 35 games per night, but not for the reasons you might think. More on that later.
As it happens, I think both Chris & myself played the hand correctly. Remember, when we are short stacked, & the blinds are big, the parameters & ranges change significantly.
The dynamic was quite odd - one player had half the chips, the other 3 of us - Ger (who wisely got out of the way) Chris & I had the other 6,000 chips between us.
Blinds were 300-600, & within 1 minute of going 400-800.
I had 1,815 chips I think , & was in the blinds the next 2 hands. So I'm ALMOST forced to jam here, & my range can be, literally, anything. I happened to have a nice balanced hand, A-Q-7-4. It's VERY unlikely I can turn up with a hand this strong in this spot. It's a complete no-brainer for me to shove here, & I'm loving life.
Chris had 1,395 behind, plus his 300 in the SB. He had A-K-Q-3 with a suit. Again, a complete & utter no-brainer. He MUST get it in here.
As it happens, we both lost, but that's irrelevant. What we must try to do is the best thing in any specific situation. Just because we win or lose does not make it right or wrong. If we do the right thing in the right spots every time we'll be just fine in the long run, & losing this one does not change that. Over the course (in my case) of 30 games per night, or around 200 games per week, I'll make this play every single time if it arises, & I'll be +ev. Ditto Chris.
I think Chris & I BOTH did exactly the right thing.
All IMO of course.
Now, the reason I so vividly remember this hand.
(Note these are my personal observations, 100% not a criticism of anyone, but it's always good to talk, & all of us PLO8-ers are trying to improve collectively).
If we play enough of these, especially against the same sub-group of experienced PLO8 players, we can pretty well forecast what will happen in any given spot. We KNOW who will do what with what.
My hand (imo) played itself.
When Chris got it in behind me, before I even saw his hand, I knew I was in trouble - he MUST have a similar, probably better, balanced hand. So I now knew I was in a bit of trouble, & I was almost certainly on the wrong end of a 60-40 flip. No prob, it happens, & I might get lucky.
What happened next made my eyeballs pop out - the Big Stack came along. This really really shocked me. And I'm thinking, "sheesh, he must have good aces, but even so, I'd fold in his spot".
In fact, he had the very odd K-10-2-3. And he must KNOW that at least 2 of the Aces are out.
At this point, most would argue "he had the odds". And they would be perfectly & 100% correct - he did. But that completely misses the point.
Let's look at the upside & downside of his play.
What upside does he have? Very little, imo. He folds, & I bust Chris or Chris busts me. Either way, game over. oioi. That's it - fold to victory.
But what if Chris takes the low, & I take the high? Suddenly I have 2,700, Chris has the same, & Brian has around 4,000.
How much has Brian's chance of winning this improved or reduced now? He was a "lock" before this hand, now he's back in the mix, & it's anyone's game. His chances of winning are substantially reduced. And there was no upside, as he was near guaranteed the win already.
I also try very hard NEVER to double up a competent player un-necessarily. And both Chris & I are "competent". Give us a 2xUp at your peril.
What I'm saying is that I just see a lot more downside than upside here. When we have half the chips 4 handed, if we ever lose from here we should shoot ourselves. We are locked, we don't need to do anything. We just let the shorties fight amongst themselves, whilst we anticipate our guaranteed win & concentrate on other games. It's NOT an MTT, it's a DYM. 1st, 2nd & 3rd all get the same. Why expose ourselves to the risk of losing a game we have locked?
We all play the game our own way, & that's great. Me, I'm never getting involved here in a month of wet Sundays. I'm actually folding bad aces, too. I don't need to do anything, or expose my lovely stack to any risk.
I'd be interested in what others think about this - not to diss Brian, not at all - but just to learn from each other.
Word of warning though - you can't expect that win rate to hold up long term - if you can, then you are a phenom.
If you can maintain a 60% win rate (at level stakes) you'll win plenty of dough.
Good luck mate.
Actually, I would have broken land speed records in calling!
Then, I would have looked at my hand!
!
ps. !!!
Hand History #1062606936 (19:27 28/07/2016)
If you had Tikay slightly covered I would instacall and hope Churchy comes along and checks it down postflop with the hope of busting the bubble. In that scenario even if you don't bust the bubble your hand plays well over a board and you may at least get a split pot however with these stacks I would probably sigh and fold.
Morning Chris.
First up, I would not worry too much that your results have not been quite as good this week. In truth, your early results, when you were winning north of 70% of games played was near impossible to sustain. You are still winning almost 60% of your games, & even that may be a tad to high to sustain, but you have good basics, & I think you will settle around 57% or 58% imo, which is profitable.
Your numbers have been hurt a bit by losing the only 2 £5.50 games, too. Don't worry about that, the £3 & £5 player pools are virtually the same players.
There's more to these games than just knowledge of how to play PLO8 though - being DYM savvy, & aware of what is going on around you as to stack sizes etc is equally important.
You also need to look for "spots", in particular players who don't understand or grasp the different strategy required for a DYM compared to an MTT. The tactics are completely different. Also, look for players with big stacks who can't grasp the difference between a DYM & an MTT - these guys often open or look others up wide, as they seem to think more chips = bigger man sausage. You don't get a penny extra for ending a DYM with 10,000 chips, so think SURVIVAL not willy waving.
And when you get a big stack 4 handed, THINK about it. The game is locked, you don't need to mess about. Losing a DYM from that spot is a dreadful mistake & should never happen. Just play "savvy" poker.
You can learn by watching others, too - if you ever see helland or huuuuuume at the tables in PLO8 DYM's, try & watch them. Poetry in motion, they are effortlessly good & rarely waste a chip.
If you have any questions, or hand histories that you need help with, put them up & you'll get plenty of replies from the experienced players.
Good luck m8.