Is There Money To Be Had?

PkDevil

Now of course there is money in Poker. That's what Poker is all about isn't it? Isn't it? But I would be interested to know how many of you are actually in profit in online Poker - When I say in profit I don't mean that you're a little up this week or even that you happened to place in a tourney last week...I mean in profit overall by a substantial enough amount that you could call it a living without having to feed for scraps on the street and turn-over to a cardboard box under a bridge at night.

I don't think Poker is really sustainable as a source of income unless you already have a lot of money behind because it's only really worth it at that point because you are able to fund higher stake games and so it is worthwhile bothering to learn the game, more to the point, you have the funds to prevent you going bankrupt in the meantime.

But that brings me back to my question? Is there money to be had? And I don't need any sarcastic response from the usual suspects (the ones may I add that a quick look at Sharkscope tells me are in debt by hundreds if not over a grand). I'm asking a genuine question.

Do you as players make a substantial amount of money from playing online Poker? Or are you losing players? There has to be winning players to be losing players right?....Not if the money just gets swished from one side of the tank to the other there doesn't.

So? Who's earning an income from Online Poker with at least a minimum £8.00ph equivalent x 8hrs full-time so £64pd? (Yes I know nobody wins all the time but if you put this out over the course of a month this is what you would be needing to consider it a full-time job replacement so that's what I'm going from).

How many of you should be in jobs instead of grinding micros?

MattBates

What stakes are you referring to as micros?

Are people grinding the micros as a job or just unemployed and earning a side income with their spare time?

The majority of players play poker as a hobby, some win, some lose. 

If you are good enough and work hard enough their is plenty of money to be made from poker. Problem is being able to accurately assess your ability and your earning potential. 

markycash

Your question is a good one but while it hits some nails squarely on the head it also leaves a few bruised fingers. A couple of points seem rather reductionist.

In Response to Is There Money To Be Had?:

 But I would be interested to know how many of you are actually in profit in online Poker
Posted by PkDevil

A similar question was raised quite recently and the number of players in profit is higher than many expect. There were a couple of articles posted by Sharkscope about the topic. I think the latest figures for Sky showed somewhere around 23% of players were in profit on Sky Poker. 

Now sure, some of these players will not be making enough to make a living from it. Worth noting though that the figures did not include rakeback and while some players may only make a couple of quid from rakeback... Some players do eek out a living from rakeback alone.

In Response to Is There Money To Be Had?:

 I mean in profit overall by a substantial enough amount that you could call it a living without having to feed for scraps on the street and turn-over to a cardboard box under a bridge at night
Posted by PkDevil

I know it is not directly what you asked but this will not be the mission for many players. My dad for example likes to play poker with a few beers each night. He is happy to win a few bucks but the main reason he plays is not to make money. If it was he would play when he wasn't having a few beers. If a player is breaking even, making a small loss or small profit then this can be a very cheap form of entertainment. We all know how expensive it can be to take in a football match or take the family to the cinema etc.

Another major consideration are people's personal circumstances. We are all different. It will depend on where you live, how many people are working in the household, what other money you have access to etc etc.

If I take myself as an example. I have been playing for roughly 10 years... In that time I am slightly above $300k in profit if play on all sites, live play, rakeback, and promotions are considered.

Is that enough to avoid the cardboard box? Yup, for many it would be. However for some, including myself, it was not really sustainable. I was the only person in the house making money for much of that time and had 2 kids to support. So for much of the last 4 years of that period I returned to education to hopefully get another revenue stream behind myself and will then give poker another go with the odds of long term sustainability hopefully stacked a bit more in my favour.

If someone was living with their parents for example and had little outgoings then that figure may have worked well for them. I daresay if I had better life and bankroll management, even in my circumstances, when I was a newb starting out in poker then I could have hit the cashout button less and allowed myself more room for progression. We live and learn though.

In Response to Is There Money To Be Had?:

 I don't think Poker is really sustainable as a source of income unless you already have a lot of money behind because it's only really worth it at that point because you are able to fund higher stake games and so it is worthwhile bothering to learn the game, more to the point, you have the funds to prevent you going bankrupt in the meantime.
Posted by PkDevil

It may seem contrary to what I said above but I don't feel you need a lot of money behind you to make a living from poker.

There are broadly 2 ways that winning players can make their living from poker. I have seen many players traverse both paths...

The player is good and has some luck at the start - If you are a good player and you run very well at the start and ship a massive score then it can give you the traction needed to successfully play full time.

The player is good and uses great life and bankroll management - It is perfectly possible to start with nothing and use good bankroll management to get to the highest stakes and make a lot of money. For this to work you really need something in place to allow your winnings to be re-invested in yourself from the get-go though. This does not need to be massive funds. If you have meagre funds from a small job that cover your outgoings and allow you to not hit the cashout button until you should then it is possible to go from zero to a very healthy amount.

I guess there is a third way... Run like the wind and ship a few massive scores whether you have skills on the felt or not and then not blow it all. There are certainly a few players in that camp.

Arrogant

The great thing about poker is you dont need to start off with a big br to make it to the top.You actually find the players who started with tiny bankrolls/poor backgrounds etc have had the greater success in poker.They seem to want it more, and thats what its all about.How hard your willing to work.

But thats the get to get to the high levels.If you want 8 pounds an hour, in my experience you dont need to study much.But what you do need to do is to learn how to play high table counts for long hours, cus your gonna need to be putting in 40-50 hours a week if playing micro stakes.

Example would be average buy in of £5 with a 25% roi.Your gonna need to play 50ish games a day 5 days a week to get your 8 pound an hour.

weecheez1

Not as successful as mark but going over my deposits and withdrawals my profit stands at 54p a day since I started playing poker more than enough for cardboard boxes yet when you look at sharks cope it says -£658 some of the figures are scary when looked at together like total cashes rake paid and the like but this is my hobby and it owes me nothing I can only imagine what some of the top players must think when they see their own numbers (wished I had never looked lol ) 

MattBates

In Response to Is There Money To Be Had?:

Now of course there is money in Poker. That's what Poker is all about isn't it? Isn't it? But I would be interested to know how many of you are actually in profit in online Poker - When I say in profit I don't mean that you're a little up this week or even that you happened to place in a tourney last week...I mean in profit overall by a substantial enough amount that you could call it a living without having to feed for scraps on the street and turn-over to a cardboard box under a bridge at night. I don't think Poker is really sustainable as a source of income unless you already have a lot of money behind because it's only really worth it at that point because you are able to fund higher stake games and so it is worthwhile bothering to learn the game, more to the point, you have the funds to prevent you going bankrupt in the meantime. But that brings me back to my question? Is there money to be had? And I don't need any sarcastic response from the usual suspects (the ones may I add that a quick look at Sharkscope tells me are in debt by hundreds if not over a grand). I'm asking a genuine question. Do you as players make a substantial amount of money from playing online Poker? Or are you losing players? There has to be winning players to be losing players right?....Not if the money just gets swished from one side of the tank to the other there doesn't. So? Who's earning an income from Online Poker with at least a minimum £8.00ph equivalent x 8hrs full-time so £64pd? (Yes I know nobody wins all the time but if you put this out over the course of a month this is what you would be needing to consider it a full-time job replacement so that's what I'm going from). How many of you should be in jobs instead of grinding micros?
Posted by PkDevil

Making a view on someone being profitable from online poker purely by looking at sharkscope for one site is somewhat short sighted. Players make money from rakeback so could well be losing/breakeven based on scope but making £ from the game. Also some players may play a few MTTs but mainly play cash so they appear to be losing when they are a big winning player. 

Also players may be winning overall but down on one or more sites. 

jordz16

i dont think anyone gets into poker looking to become a professional or to play full time, for anyone who does well over a long period of time it just becomes an option. people can do what they want really, some people may wanna take a shot at becoming pro even if they aint good enough and id say good luck to them its better to try and to fail than to not try at all.. as long as you have a back up option then you will be fine.. i spent 3 years playing poker full time and when i first decided to try and do it full time it was probably a mistake considering my results werent quite good enough and my bankroll wasnt big enough but after a rocky first 6 months it worked out... 

   I would say most breakeven and above players have the potential to become full-time/professional if they are prepared to work hard to improve put in as many hours as it requires and are self-motivated enough... most people wouldnt want to though, but for the few who do i think thats great.

PkDevil

There are some fantastic points made by all you guys and i'll be re-reading them a few times to let them sink in and see what I can take from it.

Thank you for all your replies. Always appreciated!

scotty77

If you are willing to put the work in, then yes.  

But like the old saying goes, it is a hard way to make an easy living.  

Back in the day it was easier of course.

There are so many different types of pro.  You have the high stakes cash guys, the live tournie circuit pros, online MTT grinders, coaches, cash game crushers, cash game breakeven but make a living off rakeback, live cash 1/2 nits who sit and wait to earn 1 stack a day.

I know people who grind 20/30nl on Sky and with RB they are probably close to clearing 1.5/2k a month tax free.

EVeryoen has the potential to still earn 5figs a month out of poker but its a profession where everything has to be right for you to really succeed. One mistake, one leak, one night of tilt can ruin it all and that is where most people fail. 

One of the biggest issues right now, on sites with a worldwide player pool, is that it is far easier to be a pro in 'poorer' countries.  Making £10k a year is massive for them so they can either go in 2 directions - grind solid ABC super nitty and make that easy £10k or use that drive and desire to really put the effort in and become super crushers who make £100k+ a year.  It is kind of hard for UK players to compete with that kind of committment on other sites tbf.

The easy money right now is on Asian sites, but with that there are big complications with even withdrawing your funds so theres that risk too.

This is a tangent but....

There are professional vloggers, people who stream playing video games on twitch - their earnings are related to how hard they work (also maybe just being in the right place at the right time - I doubt Jamie Staples would be able to gain such a following if he started now, but he was the first so hence he gained popularity quicker).

I was browing twitch the other day and there was a girl cooking basic meals and she had thousands of viewers and was getting insane tips.  It'x crazy to think that in 2 hours of making sushi rolls she made $1k in tips plus whatever she gets from subscribers but it was happening. And yes, she had all of her clothes on!

Poker is the same as the above things.  The work behind the scenes is what makes those people able to make a good living at it.  The playing the game itself is the easy part.

DoyleBrun

In Response to .:

If you are willing to put the work in, then yes.   But like the old saying goes, it is a hard way to make an easy living.   Back in the day it was easier of course. There are so many different types of pro.  You have the high stakes cash guys, the live tournie circuit pros, online MTT grinders, coaches, cash game crushers, cash game breakeven but make a living off rakeback, live cash 1/2 nits who sit and wait to earn 1 stack a day. I know people who grind 20/30nl on Sky and with RB they are probably close to clearing 1.5/2k a month tax free. EVeryoen has the potential to still earn 5figs a month out of poker but its a profession where everything has to be right for you to really succeed. One mistake, one leak, one night of tilt can ruin it all and that is where most people fail.  One of the biggest issues right now, on sites with a worldwide player pool, is that it is far easier to be a pro in 'poorer' countries.  Making £10k a year is massive for them so they can either go in 2 directions - grind solid ABC super nitty and make that easy £10k or use that drive and desire to really put the effort in and become super crushers who make £100k+ a year.  It is kind of hard for UK players to compete with that kind of committment on other sites tbf. The easy money right now is on Asian sites, but with that there are big complications with even withdrawing your funds so theres that risk too. This is a tangent but.... There are professional vloggers, people who stream playing video games on twitch - their earnings are related to how hard they work (also maybe just being in the right place at the right time - I doubt Jamie Staples would be able to gain such a following if he started now, but he was the first so hence he gained popularity quicker). I was browing twitch the other day and there was a girl cooking basic meals and she had thousands of viewers and was getting insane tips.  It'x crazy to think that in 2 hours of making sushi rolls she made $1k in tips plus whatever she gets from subscribers but it was happening. And yes, she had all of her clothes on! Poker is the same as the above things.  The work behind the scenes is what makes those people able to make a good living at it.  The playing the game itself is the easy part.
Posted by scotty77

DoyleBrun

Messed that post up will try another day lol oh its on top of post lol.

TheMadMonk

bankroll management is one of the most important things in poker.

been playing poker for over 15 years online [and a brag player for many years before that ],and not got a clue if ime a winning player or not,anytime i want to play i deposit money,any time i get a decent win i withdraw [and book a holiday or buy myself something with it] suppose a lot of players are the same.

its definetly possible to make a good living playing poker,but it takes a lot more than just being a good player.

PkDevil

I think my advice looking back to when I started to my old self would have been to have still gone for at least a part-time job straight away so that at least there was some flow of money because I went the hard way and have been attempting to make a living from Poker in itself, which has been quite rightly pointed out not necessarily an easy thing to do and depends upon any number of factors.

I'm now looking at other sources of income, which is I think the sensible thing to do, at least to relieve some of the financial burden that is undoubtedly affecting my game.

markycash

In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had?:

I think my advice looking back to when I started to my old self would have been to have still gone for at least a part-time job straight away so that at least there was some flow of money because I went the hard way and have been attempting to make a living from Poker in itself, which has been quite rightly pointed out not necessarily an easy thing to do and depends upon any number of factors. I'm now looking at other sources of income, which is I think the sensible thing to do, at least to relieve some of the financial burden that is undoubtedly affecting my game.
Posted by PkDevil

If you are able to do this I personally would say it is an excellent choice.

Playing as a sole source of income when you start out trying to make some steady money from poker can sometimes mean things turn into a grind. This can erode the enjoyment aspect of playing poker and then affect your game, health and mindset. Having another income stream means more of any wins can be reinvested into your bankroll and increases the chances of successfully and sustainably playing poker on a more full time basis. 

Good luck!

PkDevil

In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had?:

In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had? : If you are able to do this I personally would say it is an excellent choice. Playing as a sole source of income when you start out trying to make some steady money from poker can sometimes mean things turn into a grind. This can erode the enjoyment aspect of playing poker and then affect your game, health and mindset. Having another income stream means more of any wins can be reinvested into your bankroll and increases the chances of successfully and sustainably playing poker on a more full time basis.  Good luck!
Posted by markycash

Thank you! :-)

MattBates

I am not sure who is actually grinding the micros as a job but as I asked earlier in the thread, what stakes are you calling micros? 

There was a thread before I think where you alluded to you playing full time. At the stakes you play there is hardly any way you could earn enough £ for it to be a viable option so not sure how on the level this thread is. 

For it to be viable to play full time you can run some maths (which will have lots of assumptions) to work out if its possible based on assumed ROI/table count/hours played/likely rakeback etc. If using best case assumptions you would get more busking then you are better spending your time learning the guitar or keeping poker as a hobby. 

As was mentioned before most players earn good £ from the game and then make a judgement as to whether they want to play full time or continue in their current job. 

PkDevil

In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had?:

I am not sure who is actually grinding the micros as a job but as I asked earlier in the thread, what stakes are you calling micros?  There was a thread before I think where you alluded to you playing full time. At the stakes you play there is hardly any way you could earn enough £ for it to be a viable option so not sure how on the level this thread is.  For it to be viable to play full time you can run some maths (which will have lots of assumptions) to work out if its possible based on assumed ROI/table count/hours played/likely rakeback etc. If using best case assumptions you would get more busking then you are better spending your time learning the guitar or keeping poker as a hobby.  As was mentioned before most players earn good £ from the game and then make a judgement as to whether they want to play full time or continue in their current job. 
Posted by MattBates

I've got all I need from the thread. All the points were good. I consider your question as bait.

FCHD

In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had?:

I am not sure who is actually grinding the micros as a job but as I asked earlier in the thread, what stakes are you calling micros? 
Posted by MattBates

Well I'm sat to the OP's left currently playing a 28p DYM, so I guess micros are the very smallest you can get on Sky. I seriously doubt any one is "grinding" those for a living!

markycash

In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had?:

In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had? : Well I'm sat to the OP's left currently playing a 28p DYM, so I guess micros are the very smallest you can get on Sky. I seriously doubt any one is "grinding" those for a living!
Posted by FCHD

Now that would be a challenge!

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had?:

In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had? : I've got all I need from the thread. All the points were good. I consider your question as bait.
Posted by PkDevil

What were you looking for from this thread?

PkDevil

In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had?:

In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had? : Well I'm sat to the OP's left currently playing a 28p DYM, so I guess micros are the very smallest you can get on Sky. I seriously doubt any one is "grinding" those for a living!
Posted by FCHD

I play £0.28 Dyms in that particular type of game because I haven't found an entirely reliable way as of yet to make consistent profit....so playing at a higher level might be foolish perhaps? No?

You like sarcasm. That's good. You won't mind if I repay the favour on any forum posts you make in future then I assume :-)