It's a good topic, shame it descended but back OT: Most people who play poker will have considered this issue - not many play for money without considering the possibilities of.....money. Anyone who says people only play for fun are talking rubbish really - why have money involved if that's true. When you do well it's obvious you may consider taking it further/more serious of course, it's natural too. Biggest two problems I can see with the idea of treating it as full time/pro - variance and rake, especially when you're lower stakes. You can be a great player and on a massive, massive downswing in variance. Try telling that to the mortgage providers etc....eek. The part time other income/part time poker sideline is seriously a better option IMO (as some suggest earlier here). There's always other income to fall back on that way, and you can still give it a shot at using poker as income. Posted by swanstu
Hi Stu,
Not sure I agree with that, to be honest.
I play well within my bankroll, & if I happen to have a win, the money stays in the account. I play for the sake of enjoying myself. Realistically, I'm not nearly good enough to win an amount at poker that is meaningful to me, but that does not mean I don't still love playing poker.
Poker HAS to be played with real money, it simply does not work if it costs nothing, as we can just move all in every hand without fear of it costing us anything.
I don't know the exact % of losing players in poker, but I'd suggest that most of them KNOW they'll never make meaningful money at the game. They still play it though. It's good, relatively cheap fun. An evening down the pub costs money, an evening at the cinema costs money, a night out with the lads costs money. A night playing poker probably costs money, but, you know, sometimes we win a few bob, so we have a few free nights.
Most of us just get a buzz from having a little gamble. Folks who do the Lottery, or play Roulette, must know the odds are stacked against them, but they still play it.
In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had? : Great point Angmar. To really see the Dunning-Kruger effect in action, watch some you tube videos for evidence of delusional 'experts' in a variety of fields or simply tune in to any number of 'talent' shows on the TV. In fact see the reaction of OP and others when their point of view is challenged, as Jack Nicholson once said ''you can't handle the truth" I believe much of this stems from our societies reticence to say anything considered 'negative'. Constantly striving to find 'positives' in everything and everyone does us no favours in the long term, some people just suck at certain things, tell them and let them move on to find something they don't suck at.....except poker players obviously :-) Posted by HENDRIK62
Do you find this kind of thing less common in golf because there is less that's up for debate and opinion-based? Presumably if you missed the ball then you missed the ball..?
In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had? : Do you find this kind of thing less common in golf because there is less that's up for debate and opinion-based? Presumably if you missed the ball then you missed the ball..? Posted by Angmar2626
I would suggest it extremely common in golf.
From low handicap golfers (better than most at their respective clubs, lauded and applauded by their peers):
If only they had the 'special' clubs the pros use, the time to practice or the access to experts they have, it would only be a matter of time before they were trouncing these overrated pros...
Amatuer coaches (the ones who have never spent a day in the trenches):
Yeah what do these coaches know, I could get Rory hitting it straighter in no time...
And my personal favourites the professional 'coaches' who have never even tried to expand their knowledge base, yet criticise every and any others who veer from their idea of what is correct. They have a special form of cognitive dissonance (a bit like a security blanket, a form of denial very similar to losing poker players who cannot accept that anything they are doing could be wrong or outdated)
In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had? : Hi Stu, Not sure I agree with that, to be honest. I play well within my bankroll, & if I happen to have a win, the money stays in the account. I play for the sake of enjoying myself. Realistically, I'm not nearly good enough to win an amount at poker that is meaningful to me, but that does not mean I don't still love playing poker. Poker HAS to be played with real money, it simply does not work if it costs nothing, as we can just move all in every hand without fear of it costing us anything. I don't know the exact % of losing players in poker, but I'd suggest that most of them KNOW they'll never make meaningful money at the game. They still play it though. It's good, relatively cheap fun. An evening down the pub costs money, an evening at the cinema costs money, a night out with the lads costs money. A night playing poker probably costs money, but, you know, sometimes we win a few bob, so we have a few free nights. Most of us just get a buzz from having a little gamble. Folks who do the Lottery, or play Roulette, must know the odds are stacked against them, but they still play it . Posted by Tikay10
I agree TK , i play within my Bankroll....have fun, sometime not when i play badly ( SPT Manchester ), but
also love to dream about " The big Win " .
I have made some really good friends via poker, so much so that im off to Dublin tomorrow for a friends wedding i 1st met during the Irish open years ago .
I have been fortunate / lucky enough to qualify for major MTT live around a few lovely places in the world,
i would not have gone if not for poker.
If it was all about the money i could sell my seats to main events as the chances of me winning are slim...
even for the top players this is often the case, but we dream on , and you need to be in it to win it i believe.
Having had some decent wins over the years live and online keeps me coming back for more ,
but if i never have a decent win again , its still gonna be fun trying .
Thread seemed to go downhill when micros meant 28p DYMs and people were playing for a living at these stakes and I was accused of trying to bait the OP.
To try and get the thread back on track
Everyone will have their view on whether or not someone should go pro.
Things to consider
Bankroll and liferoll
You need to have sufficient money behind you to cope with the swings you get with the game. You also need to have money behind you for bills so you arent taking from bankroll while losing.
Stakes and ROI
There is different ways to make money from poker. To make sure poker is feasible you can make some assumptions about the games you play to work out the sort of income/hourly rate you can expect.
Linked to this is the availability of tables. If your plan is to 10 table a certain format of the game but there are only 2 hours a day when there is that many tables the plan might not be the best.
Alternative job options
If your alternative is a £500k a year job then £100k a year from poker wont be all that attractive. If your alternative is £8 an hour job then £12 an hour is probably quite attractive
Effect of downswings on life
Everyone will have downswings and if poker is a hobby you can leave it for a bit. If it is your job then you need to grind through the swings and you need to think about the effect of losing on your personal life. Also if you hate your current job then you might in fact be happier playing poker.
Mortgages and the future etc
Another consideration is that if you are a poker player your chances of getting a mortagage are a lot harder. Also in most jobs you have career progresion and your money will go up over time. In poker there is a lot more uncertainty and is risks like changes in legislation meaning you can no longer play in your current country or poker could be taxed and a chunk of your monthly income has suddenly gone.
In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had? : Hi Stu, Not sure I agree with that, to be honest. I play well within my bankroll, & if I happen to have a win, the money stays in the account. I play for the sake of enjoying myself. Realistically, I'm not nearly good enough to win an amount at poker that is meaningful to me, but that does not mean I don't still love playing poker. Poker HAS to be played with real money, it simply does not work if it costs nothing, as we can just move all in every hand without fear of it costing us anything. I don't know the exact % of losing players in poker, but I'd suggest that most of them KNOW they'll never make meaningful money at the game. They still play it though. It's good, relatively cheap fun. An evening down the pub costs money, an evening at the cinema costs money, a night out with the lads costs money. A night playing poker probably costs money, but, you know, sometimes we win a few bob, so we have a few free nights. Most of us just get a buzz from having a little gamble. Folks who do the Lottery, or play Roulette, must know the odds are stacked against them, but they still play it . Posted by Tikay10
Im with you on this, I love gambling, Ive been gambling since I was 12 years old used to sneak into the local dog track, hide at the back of the bookies, get one of the auld yins to put my bet on, pitch and toss,chippy, 3 card brag, 4 card dueces or jacks floating, 7 card, 13 card crash,pawnies, shoot the banker, even use to play totopoly for money, could write a book about hard luck stories, had big wins had big loses, but 44 years on I still get that same buzz as I did when I first sneaked into the dugs. With poker now being my most recent daliance ( playing on off for about 8 years ) I find that on all sites Ive played on during that time Im holding my own,not really winning not really losing that much, I am not that great a player but I enjoy playing ,I dont like losing a hand like the next person, whether it costs me a fiver, tenner, puts me out a tourney, whatever, but thats gambling thats the buzz.
In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had? : Im with you on this, I love gambling, Ive been gambling since I was 12 years old used to sneak into the local dog track, hide at the back of the bookies, get one of the auld yins to put my bet on, pitch and toss,chippy, 3 card brag, 4 card dueces or jacks floating, 7 card, 13 card crash,pawnies, shoot the banker, even use to play totopoly for money, could write a book about hard luck stories, had big wins had big loses, but 44 years on I still get that same buzz as I did when I first sneaked into the dugs. With poker now being my most recent daliance ( playing on off for about 8 years ) I find that on all sites Ive played on during that time Im holding my own,not really winning not really losing that much, I am not that great a player but I enjoy playing ,I dont like losing a hand like the next person, whether it costs me a fiver, tenner, puts me out a tourney, whatever, but thats gambling thats the buzz. Posted by rabdeniro
Love that post.
For some of us, poker ticks a little box - that daily "buzz" we get from a gamble.
Oh wow, how did best thread in ages (aside from WSOP, SPT) deteriorate back to status quo so quickly? There most certainly is money to be had in poker for a plethora of reasons. One of the primary ones is simply that the majority of people overestimate their own skill. Google 'Dunning-Kruger Effect' - interesting stuff. Also, in poker there's the readily available scapegoat of variance/luck to blame rather than your own ability, which always makes things fun :P Posted by Angmar2626
Not sure whether or not it was meant in reply to my point, but I certainly don't have to guess it's a scapegoat days like today, I play HU against the **** shoving all in with QT vs my AKs, J8s vs my AQs, A3 vs my AKs - winning all 3 in a row......variance, yep it's real (groans....)
In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had? : Hi Stu, Not sure I agree with that, to be honest. I play well within my bankroll, & if I happen to have a win, the money stays in the account. I play for the sake of enjoying myself. Realistically, I'm not nearly good enough to win an amount at poker that is meaningful to me, but that does not mean I don't still love playing poker. Poker HAS to be played with real money, it simply does not work if it costs nothing, as we can just move all in every hand without fear of it costing us anything. I don't know the exact % of losing players in poker, but I'd suggest that most of them KNOW they'll never make meaningful money at the game. They still play it though. It's good, relatively cheap fun. An evening down the pub costs money, an evening at the cinema costs money, a night out with the lads costs money. A night playing poker probably costs money, but, you know, sometimes we win a few bob, so we have a few free nights. Most of us just get a buzz from having a little gamble. Folks who do the Lottery, or play Roulette, must know the odds are stacked against them, but they still play it . Posted by Tikay10
I agree partially TK, but my point was it's still about trying to 'win money'. The fun aspect is related to that aim at least in part. That is the excitement, buzz etc you mention. Without the key element of money it wouldn't be that same fun.
People play other games (e.g. chess) without money, and for poker that's also possible if it was just for fun - e.g. the play tables for example. But no-one is really interested without trying to win money.
You may be right many players know they won't win long term, deep down, but I'd doubt many would admit it fully and they always hope to start winning money I'm sure.
In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had? : I agree partially TK, but my point was it's still about trying to 'win money'. The fun aspect is related to that aim at least in part. That is the excitement, buzz etc you mention. Without the key element of money it wouldn't be that same fun. People play other games (e.g. chess) without money, and for poker that's also possible if it was just for fun - e.g. the play tables for example. But no-one is really interested without trying to win money. You may be right many players know they won't win long term, deep down, but I'd doubt many would admit it fully and they always hope to start winning money I'm sure. Posted by swanstu
There are more play money poker players than real money poker players.
The data online is inconsistent as to how many people play poker and what percentage of them are play money players. One thing that is consistent though is that there are more play money players than real money players.
In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had? : There are more play money poker players than real money poker players. The data online is inconsistent as to how many people play poker and what percentage of them are play money players. One thing that is consistent though is that there are more play money players than real money players. Posted by markycash
That's interesting if true, so fair enough - not sure how you know that though, if the data is inconsistent?
Maybe we're biased by talking on places like this forum, more towards people who want to play seriously I suppose...?
In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had? : That's interesting if true, so fair enough - not sure how you know that though, if the data is inconsistent? Posted by swanstu
Because one of the apparent consistencies in the otherwise inconsistent data was that there are more play money players than real money. If you think about Facebook apps etc this isn't really surprising. I would be astonished if more than 33% of stars players were real money players.
In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had? : Maybe we're biased by talking on places like this forum, more towards people who want to play seriously I suppose...? Posted by swanstu
Yeah I think so. Like yourself it is real money poker that interests me so I do not pay attention to play money.
In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had? : Because one of the apparent consistencies in the otherwise inconsistent data was that there are more play money players than real money. If you think about Facebook apps etc this isn't really surprising. I would be astonished if more than 33% of stars players were real money players. In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had? : Yeah I think so. Like yourself it is real money poker that interests me so I do not pay attention to play money. Posted by markycash
Fair point in that case.
However, I'd maybe then refine my point that players who do play for real cash still aim to win money as a primary goal underlying their play (and fun). I think once money becomes involved, then it does involve that essentially. Also the fact that there are that many play money players seems to go against the earlier point from TK that Poker couldn't happen without money....?
this will proberley go of topic so i opolygise now... found this post a very good read some realy good debate going on, my view is there some guys and girls making good money from poker im definitly not one at a guess since 2008 which is when i started im 35k down give or take 5k or more but almost all of that is MTT games those making a living in my view are the cash game players multi tableing ...do i regret my loses not one bit as i only play with what i wish to lose do i get frustrated sometimes yes i do ...do i want to grt better ? to be honest after playing since 2008 im never going to improve as one of my flaws is i get bored .drink while i play ,watch tv the list goes on but i do get alot of fun out of playing so overall i guess im saying those players who have the dedication and the ability to learn and put in the hrs can make a good living out of the game but for some its a bit of fun ....i will end by saying if you come across me on the tables i dont need to no what my stats are on sharkscope ect ect as i already no that i have no ability at the game just let me have my bit of fun and take my chips as some players do dish out abuse to people like me but thankfully no one who has posted before me has GL to all players good or bad
this will proberley go of topic so i opolygise now... found this post a very good read some realy good debate going on, my view is there some guys and girls making good money from poker im definitly not one at a guess since 2008 which is when i started im 35k down give or take 5k or more but almost all of that is MTT games those making a living in my view are the cash game players multi tableing ...do i regret my loses not one bit as i only play with what i wish to lose do i get frustrated sometimes yes i do ...do i want to grt better ? to be honest after playing since 2008 im never going to improve as one of my flaws is i get bored .drink while i play ,watch tv the list goes on but i do get alot of fun out of playing so overall i guess im saying those players who have the dedication and the ability to learn and put in the hrs can make a good living out of the game but for some its a bit of fun ....i will end by saying if you come across me on the tables i dont need to no what my stats are on sharkscope ect ect as i already no that i have no ability at the game just let me have my bit of fun and take my chips as some players do dish out abuse to people like me but thankfully no one who has posted before me has GL to all players good or bad Posted by HANSON
Very honest post, thanks. I presume some would use your example to say you only play for fun. Although 35k sounds like expensive fun! I guess at times though you also thought that you might start to win money back, improve play etc?
We are moving slightly away from the OT, but I do think there's a lot of reasons people can keep playing, and for money, despite losing a lot. Some of the darker sides of gambling too are related sadly.
Wish you all the best of luck Hanson, we all still need that too however good we think we are.
In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had? : Fair point in that case. However, I'd maybe then refine my point that players who do play for real cash still aim to win money as a primary goal underlying their play (and fun). I think once money becomes involved, then it does involve that essentially. Also the fact that there are that many play money players seems to go against the earlier point from TK that Poker couldn't happen without money....? People chose to play to win money essentially. Posted by swanstu
Why is it so hard to grasp that there are plenty of poker players who's primary reason for playing is fun and enjoyment?
In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had? : Why is it so hard to grasp that there are plenty of poker players who's primary reason for playing is fun and enjoyment? Posted by hhyftrftdr
Poker is primarily a gambling game, like betting on horses - people I'd argue in general get into it to try to win money, simple as that, not just for fun. IMHO of course.
there's also the fact that poker is spoken of as a game of skill, so people think they can make money.
In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had? : Poker is primarily a gambling game, like betting on horses - people I'd argue in general get into it to try to win money, simple as that, not just for fun. IMHO of course. Posted by swanstu
I repeat; there are many many people who play poker purely for enjoyment and fun, and the money aspect takes a back seat.
If you're struggling to digest that then maybe put a finger under each word as you read it aloud.
In Response to Re: Is There Money To Be Had? : I repeat; there are many many people who play poker purely for enjoyment and fun, and the money aspect takes a back seat. Posted by hhyftrftdr
Unless you are somehow a mind reader or something then there is no way to prove your claim, so not sure why you are stating that as a fact?
(I've already given the factors that support my view in the post previous, so no need to post them again - if you want to point out which of these factors isn't true that's fine, but please support your view with actual facts not speculation).
Comments
Not sure I agree with that, to be honest.
I play well within my bankroll, & if I happen to have a win, the money stays in the account. I play for the sake of enjoying myself. Realistically, I'm not nearly good enough to win an amount at poker that is meaningful to me, but that does not mean I don't still love playing poker.
Poker HAS to be played with real money, it simply does not work if it costs nothing, as we can just move all in every hand without fear of it costing us anything.
I don't know the exact % of losing players in poker, but I'd suggest that most of them KNOW they'll never make meaningful money at the game. They still play it though. It's good, relatively cheap fun. An evening down the pub costs money, an evening at the cinema costs money, a night out with the lads costs money. A night playing poker probably costs money, but, you know, sometimes we win a few bob, so we have a few free nights.
Most of us just get a buzz from having a little gamble. Folks who do the Lottery, or play Roulette, must know the odds are stacked against them, but they still play it.
With poker now being my most recent daliance ( playing on off for about 8 years ) I find that on all sites Ive played on during that time Im holding my own,not really winning not really losing that much, I am not that great a player but I enjoy playing ,I dont like losing a hand like the next person, whether it costs me a fiver, tenner, puts me out a tourney, whatever, but thats gambling thats the buzz.
For some of us, poker ticks a little box - that daily "buzz" we get from a gamble.
The data online is inconsistent as to how many people play poker and what percentage of them are play money players. One thing that is consistent though is that there are more play money players than real money players.
Yeah I think so. Like yourself it is real money poker that interests me so I do not pay attention to play money.