Been looking into improving cash games also as in MTTs I'm pretty comfortable with stacks 40bb and below but probably make many more mistakes on deeper stacks. For this reason I tend to late-reg tournaments to avoid the ultra deep stacked phases. Probably missing out on a lot by doing this though so will try practicing at cash games. Never really liked them that much to be honest - always found MTTs more fun! Looking forward to UKOPS! Posted by Angmar2626
Really this is a important stage of a mtt?, I play cash and I wish stacks would stay this deep all the time. I have been dabbling with mtt's of late, and trying to learn bits as I go, but I was starting to think the early game was the least important stage of a mtt, and its all about knowing what to do 40bb or less.
In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score : Really this is a important stage of a mtt?, I play cash and I wish stacks would stay this deep all the time. I have been dabbling with mtt's of late, and trying to learn bits as I go, but I was starting to think the early game was the least important stage of a mtt, and its all about knowing what to do 40bb or less. Posted by HaveaA1Day
Oh yeah completely agree 40bb and below is going to be more important by an absolutely mile and to be honest - those Spin Up games are probably going to be better practice for MTTs than deep stack games :P
For me though, I usually late reg tournaments especially in tougher lineups because not sure if I'm going to have much of an edge in the early phases. For example, if I'm playing Sunday Major I jump in after an hour and a half or so
Just think I'm leaving money on the table by not playing this phase (or at least learning to) and with UKOPS coming I'd like to give myself as good a chance as possible in all the deep structures.
Also, it's only going to help improve postflop skills
If you had to give a number one top tip for cash games, it would be...?
In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score : Oh yeah completely agree 40bb and below is going to be more important by an absolutely mile and to be honest - those Spin Up games are probably going to be better practice for MTTs than deep stack games :P For me though, I usually late reg tournaments especially in tougher lineups because not sure if I'm going to have much of an edge in the early phases. For example, if I'm playing Sunday Major I jump in after an hour and a half or so Just think I'm leaving money on the table by not playing this phase (or at least learning to) and with UKOPS coming I'd like to give myself as good a chance as possible in all the deep structures. Also, it's only going to help improve postflop skills If you had to give a number one top tip for cash games, it would be...? Posted by Angmar2626
Do you also late reg the bounty hunters?
Probs missing out on loads of value by not being in from the start, some people just love to pile the chips in early doors with less than marginal holdings
I do understand the late reg thing though, generally decisions with 30/40bb behind are clearer than with 100bb+.
In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score : Oh yeah completely agree 40bb and below is going to be more important by an absolutely mile and to be honest - those Spin Up games are probably going to be better practice for MTTs than deep stack games :P Posted by Angmar2626
Dont think my nerves are ready to go back there, them and dyms did a real number on me lol. Was watching Steffen Sontheimer's interview, and he was talking about his edge and saying that he is good in all areas of the game, and was advising cash obv for deep game, and cap games for mid stage and sngs for the push/fold stuff.
For me though, I usually late reg tournaments especially in tougher lineups because not sure if I'm going to have much of an edge in the early phases. For example, if I'm playing Sunday Major I jump in after an hour and a half or so Just think I'm leaving money on the table by not playing this phase (or at least learning to) and with UKOPS coming I'd like to give myself as good a chance as possible in all the deep structures. Posted by Angmar2626
Yeh am really looking forward to this, but if i dont start winning some f**cking sats wont be playing anything. When I took this ridiculous decision to start playing mtt's, I thought what can I do to reduce variance, No late regging for me, long blind lengths, small fields and only play sats. Think I might as well tear that plan up, I seem to get better results in 1-2k fields lol.
If you had to give a number one top tip for cash games, it would be...? :)Posted by Angmar2626
Dont xr top pair, I know where this comes from now I been playing mtt's and reading how thats a legit play in mtt's. Also 1/3p cb's otf are good, nobody is defending enough to them, if your in a pot with a recreational, we can go bigger for value, tbh though, I think I give them to much respect, cause seems super transparent to 1/3p bluffs and 2/3p+ vs them, so I tend to only do that when playing speed games, and the regs sizings are a joke on here. Dont think I need to tell you this, but dont give that BB up lightly, also think people should be 3b'in more in BB, at micros where we get raped with rake.
In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score : Do you also late reg the bounty hunters? Probs missing out on loads of value by not being in from the start, some people just love to pile the chips in early doors with less than marginal holdings I do understand the late reg thing though, generally decisions with 30/40bb behind are clearer than with 100bb+. Posted by hhyftrftdr
In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score : Dont think my nerves are ready to go back there, them and dyms did a real number on me lol. Was watching Steffen Sontheimer's interview, and he was talking about his edge and saying that he is good in all areas of the game, and was advising cash obv for deep game, and cap games for mid stage and sngs for the push/fold stuff. Yeh am really looking forward to this, but if i dont start winning some f**cking sats wont be playing anything. When I took this ridiculous decision to start playing mtt's, I thought what can I do to reduce variance, No late regging for me, long blind lengths, small fields and only play sats. Think I might as well tear that plan up, I seem to get better results in 1-2k fields lol. Dont xr top pair, I know where this comes from now I been playing mtt's and reading how thats a legit play in mtt's. Also 1/3p cb's otf are good, nobody is defending enough to them, if your in a pot with a recreational, we can go bigger for value, tbh though, I think I give them to much respect, cause seems super transparent to 1/3p bluffs and 2/3p+ vs them, so I tend to only do that when playing speed games, and the regs sizings are a joke on here. Dont think I need to tell you this, but dont give that BB up lightly, also think people should be 3b'in more in BB, at micros where we get raped with rake. Posted by HaveaA1Day
In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score : Dont think my nerves are ready to go back there, them and dyms did a real number on me lol. Was watching Steffen Sontheimer's interview, and he was talking about his edge and saying that he is good in all areas of the game, and was advising cash obv for deep game, and cap games for mid stage and sngs for the push/fold stuff. Yeh am really looking forward to this, but if i dont start winning some f**cking sats wont be playing anything. When I took this ridiculous decision to start playing mtt's, I thought what can I do to reduce variance, No late regging for me, long blind lengths, small fields and only play sats. Think I might as well tear that plan up, I seem to get better results in 1-2k fields lol. Dont xr top pair, I know where this comes from now I been playing mtt's and reading how thats a legit play in mtt's. Also 1/3p cb's otf are good, nobody is defending enough to them, if your in a pot with a recreational, we can go bigger for value, tbh though, I think I give them to much respect, cause seems super transparent to 1/3p bluffs and 2/3p+ vs them, so I tend to only do that when playing speed games, and the regs sizings are a joke on here. Dont think I need to tell you this, but dont give that BB up lightly, also think people should be 3b'in more in BB, at micros where we get raped with rake. Posted by HaveaA1Day
I’m a recreational. I think most people are on Sky. You’re going to be in a lot of pots with recreational players
In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score : Do you also late reg the bounty hunters? Probs missing out on loads of value by not being in from the start, some people just love to pile the chips in early doors with less than marginal holdings I do understand the late reg thing though, generally decisions with 30/40bb behind are clearer than with 100bb+. Posted by hhyftrftdr
You're right about this and this is why I want to start playing from the start. The times I have joined from the beginning you see people stacking 200bb with top pair bad kicker etc. I'm pretty confused about value ranges that deep though and which types of hands merit three streets of value in different situations. Definitely lots to work on!
Also, it's annoying to play from the start and get stacked before the time I would normally have registered at :P But as you say, missing value overall
In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score : I’m a recreational. I think most people are on Sky. You’re going to be in a lot of pots with recreational players Posted by Jac35
I guess he was trying to find a more polite description than the f word, not just referring to anyone who doesn't play professionally, which as you say, is most people
In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score : Dont think my nerves are ready to go back there, them and dyms did a real number on me lol. Was watching Steffen Sontheimer's interview, and he was talking about his edge and saying that he is good in all areas of the game, and was advising cash obv for deep game, and cap games for mid stage and sngs for the push/fold stuff. Yeh am really looking forward to this, but if i dont start winning some f**cking sats wont be playing anything. When I took this ridiculous decision to start playing mtt's, I thought what can I do to reduce variance, No late regging for me, long blind lengths, small fields and only play sats. Think I might as well tear that plan up, I seem to get better results in 1-2k fields lol. Dont xr top pair, I know where this comes from now I been playing mtt's and reading how thats a legit play in mtt's. Also 1/3p cb's otf are good, nobody is defending enough to them, if your in a pot with a recreational, we can go bigger for value, tbh though, I think I give them to much respect, cause seems super transparent to 1/3p bluffs and 2/3p+ vs them, so I tend to only do that when playing speed games, and the regs sizings are a joke on here. Dont think I need to tell you this, but dont give that BB up lightly, also think people should be 3b'in more in BB, at micros where we get raped with rake. Posted by HaveaA1Day
Hahaha busted! That interview is where I got the idea for playing cash from!
This is useful stuff, thanks. I think one spot I struggle with the most is playing AA/KK postflop. In MTTs it's mostly "lol AA, things about to hit the fannnnnnnn", whereas in cash it's more like "Oh, I have a one pair hand and I've been check-raised on K74... is anyone really doing that with KJ?"
For cash players trying MTTs I would guess stack size functions would be the main thing to learn first. Not just what we can do with different ranges on different stacks but getting into the habit of assessing effective stacks with other people at the table before we make decisions. "I have xx hand on y bb so I do z" isn't usually going to be the best thought process.
In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score : You're right about this and this is why I want to start playing from the start. The times I have joined from the beginning you see people stacking 200bb with top pair bad kicker etc. I'm pretty confused about value ranges that deep though and which types of hands merit three streets of value in different situations. Definitely lots to work on! Also, it's annoying to play from the start and get stacked before the time I would normally have registered at :P But as you say, missing value overall Posted by Angmar2626
Its pretty tough to give you an answer for playing deep, just that in most case your shouldn't be stacking off 200bb deep with top pair sh**t kicker. Its not an area I have ever studied, it feels your ranges should be tighter for stacking off, but I know from previous skype groups people shown me hands where people just love to go mental with the bluffing. I think the best approach is to just play this stage of the game tight, and just wait for some big hands til you get to the stage where you are comfortable playing.
In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score : I guess he was trying to find a more polite description than the f word, not just referring to anyone who doesn't play professionally, which as you say, is most people Posted by Angmar2626
Yeh I meant the fish, my coaches tell me I can do what I want to them, but I dont feel comfortable doing my 1/3p with bluffs and bigger for value, just seems so super transparent to me. So for most part I just stick to that 1 flop sizing and then f*ck them up later in the hand with overbets.
In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score : Hahaha busted! That interview is where I got the idea for playing cash from! This is useful stuff, thanks.Posted by Angmar2626
I think one spot I struggle with the most is playing AA/KK postflop. In MTTs it's mostly "lol AA, things about to hit the fannnnnnnn", whereas in cash it's more like "Oh, I have a one pair hand and I've been check-raised on K74... is anyone really doing that with KJ?"Posted by Angmar2626
Again gonna fire some more shots at some of the sh*tty cash regs on here, some guys will only xr you here when they have a set. Some of the fish will xr you here with stuff like KJ/KQ/AK that type of stuff. This is where having notes on people and noticing how often that sh**t reg xr's is important. Regarding that board you mentioned it also depends on the positions and if its a srp, like if this spot is BB v OTB villain can have 44,77, K7,K4s, and 74s but if this was BB v utg/mp there nutty hands are only 77 and 44. So if I get xr here its gonna be harder to lay my AA down vs an unknown, should also think about where you are in your range as well, but even then vs some opponents you just have to overfold, because if they are not bluffing then you need to be able to beat some of there value range.
For cash players trying MTTs I would guess stack size functions would be the main thing to learn first. Not just what we can do with different ranges on different stacks but getting into the habit of assessing effective stacks with other people at the table before we make decisions. "I have xx hand on y bb so I do z" isn't usually going to be the best thought process. Posted by Angmar2626
I dont understand this mate, could you give me an example?.
“Some of the sh*tty cash game regs” “Yeh I meant the fish,my coaches tell me I can do what I want to them” ... Just a suggestion but maybe you should be a little less harsh. Posted by Jac35
Didn't mean all of the regs, and like I said I doubt it will go unnoticed even from a fish, thats why I will only do that in speed games where I can getaway with it.
Fascinated that: 1. You have coaches; and 2. You apparently ignore what they say Good luck with that... Posted by Essexphil
1. Why does anything I have posted seem like garbage advice?. 2. So your saying when your at the table you would feel comfortable 1/3p cb'in your range vs the regs and then vs the fish 1/3p bluffs then when you have value hit him for 2/3p+ ?.
In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score : Didn't mean all of the regs, and like I said I doubt it will go unnoticed even from a fish, thats why I will only do that in speed games where I can getaway with it. In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score : 1. Why does anything I have posted seem like garbage advice?. 2. So your saying when your at the table you would feel comfortable 1/3p cb'in your range vs the regs and then vs the fish 1/3p bluffs then when you have value hit him for 2/3p+ ?. Posted by HaveaA1Day
Hi - What do the bits highlighted in bold mean? Don't recall seeing this before.
Good Luck Angmar, nice diary. I'm sure you will get the four figure score sooner rather than later.
In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score : Hi - What do the bits highlighted in bold mean? Don't recall seeing this before.Posted by GREGSTER
In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score : Didn't mean all of the regs, and like I said I doubt it will go unnoticed even from a fish, thats why I will only do that in speed games where I can getaway with it. In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score : 1. Why does anything I have posted seem like garbage advice?. 2. So your saying when your at the table you would feel comfortable 1/3p cb'in your range vs the regs and then vs the fish 1/3p bluffs then when you have value hit him for 2/3p+ ?. Posted by HaveaA1Day
Poker is very much a game of opinions. You are entitled to yours. Let me explain where I differ from you.
1. Check-raising. You berate players who only check-raise with sets. You also belittle people who check-raise with less than premium hands. The answer that suits me is that it is necessary to do the latter in order to get paid on the former-the key questions are who to do it to, and how often
2. Poker is a game of incomplete information. One of the biggest weaknesses newer players have is that they overvalue drawing hands, particularly on the flop. Consequently betting (on average) more on the flop is plus ev. That is not as simple as doubling the bet-there should be a mixture, but on average the bet should be higher. Make people pay too much for their draws (particularly flush draws) if they will do so. Do you want to get your chips in v a good or a bad player?
3. The biggest problem poker faces is attracting new players to the game. I will always help a newbie if I can-I dislike it when anyone talks down to other players
OP-you clearly have talent for the game. The 4-figure scores will come. My suggestion to try and make this happen sooner is this. Set aside a percentage of any profit to take shots at higher buy-ins. A good example would be the £24 qualifiers for the £110s or for UKOPS.
In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score : Hi - What do the bits highlighted in bold mean? Don't recall seeing this before. Good Luck Angmar, nice diary. I'm sure you will get the four figure score sooner rather than later. Cheers Greg. Posted by GREGSTER
In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score : Poker is very much a game of opinions. You are entitled to yours. Let me explain where I differ from you. 1. Check-raising. You berate players who only check-raise with sets. You also belittle people who check-raise with less than premium hands. The answer that suits me is that it is necessary to do the latter in order to get paid on the former-the key questions are who to do it to, and how often 2. Poker is a game of incomplete information. One of the biggest weaknesses newer players have is that they overvalue drawing hands, particularly on the flop. Consequently betting (on average) more on the flop is plus ev. That is not as simple as doubling the bet-there should be a mixture, but on average the bet should be higher. Make people pay too much for their draws (particularly flush draws) if they will do so. Do you want to get your chips in v a good or a bad player? 3. The biggest problem poker faces is attracting new players to the game. I will always help a newbie if I can-I dislike it when anyone talks down to other players OP-you clearly have talent for the game. The 4-figure scores will come. My suggestion to try and make this happen sooner is this. Set aside a percentage of any profit to take shots at higher buy-ins. A good example would be the £24 qualifiers for the £110s or for UKOPS. Good luck to both of you Posted by Essexphil
Thank you for kind words sir. I recognise you from the tables - for whatever reason at first I had you down as standard tight aggressive but then I got hit several times by the old 'White Magic'!!
I dont understand this mate, could you give me an example?. Posted by HaveaA1Day
Ok so the range of options available to us is different on 40/30/20/10bb so we have to know what we can do on different stack sizes. But the mistake you see people making is learning the stack size functions and then not considering effective stacks - opponents' stack sizes. So they might 3bet bluff on 40bb against another larger stack and then face a shove from someone on 15bb and end up in a pickle where they're committed to calling off with trash. Things like this
Could you explain the concept of 'where we are in our range' pls? Is it to stop us becoming exploitable and overfolding?
Comments
In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score: Yeh I meant the fish, my coaches tell me I can do what I want to them, but I dont feel comfortable doing my 1/3p with bluffs and bigger for value, just seems so super transparent to me. So for most part I just stick to that 1 flop sizing and then f*ck them up later in the hand with overbets.
In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score: np
In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score: Again gonna fire some more shots at some of the sh*tty cash regs on here, some guys will only xr you here when they have a set. Some of the fish will xr you here with stuff like KJ/KQ/AK that type of stuff. This is where having notes on people and noticing how often that sh**t reg xr's is important. Regarding that board you mentioned it also depends on the positions and if its a srp, like if this spot is BB v OTB villain can have 44,77, K7,K4s, and 74s but if this was BB v utg/mp there nutty hands are only 77 and 44. So if I get xr here its gonna be harder to lay my AA down vs an unknown, should also think about where you are in your range as well, but even then vs some opponents you just have to overfold, because if they are not bluffing then you need to be able to beat some of there value range.
In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score: I dont understand this mate, could you give me an example?.
1. You have coaches; and
2. You apparently ignore what they say
Good luck with that...
In Response to Re: On the Quest for the 4-Figure Score: 1. Why does anything I have posted seem like garbage advice?.
2. So your saying when your at the table you would feel comfortable 1/3p cb'in your range vs the regs and then vs the fish 1/3p bluffs then when you have value hit him for 2/3p+ ?.
Good Luck Angmar, nice diary. I'm sure you will get the four figure score sooner rather than later.
Cheers
Greg.
1. Check-raising. You berate players who only check-raise with sets. You also belittle people who check-raise with less than premium hands. The answer that suits me is that it is necessary to do the latter in order to get paid on the former-the key questions are who to do it to, and how often
2. Poker is a game of incomplete information. One of the biggest weaknesses newer players have is that they overvalue drawing hands, particularly on the flop. Consequently betting (on average) more on the flop is plus ev. That is not as simple as doubling the bet-there should be a mixture, but on average the bet should be higher. Make people pay too much for their draws (particularly flush draws) if they will do so. Do you want to get your chips in v a good or a bad player?
3. The biggest problem poker faces is attracting new players to the game. I will always help a newbie if I can-I dislike it when anyone talks down to other players
OP-you clearly have talent for the game. The 4-figure scores will come. My suggestion to try and make this happen sooner is this. Set aside a percentage of any profit to take shots at higher buy-ins. A good example would be the £24 qualifiers for the £110s or for UKOPS.
Good luck to both of you