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Brexit

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  • EvilPinguEvilPingu Member Posts: 3,426
    stokefc said:

    52% of the vote 18 million votes wasn't it that's alot of prejudice and ignorance

    But in the case of 52/48, it only takes about 3.5-4% of the turnout to switch from 50/50 to being prejudiced and be "Leave" voters for the wrong reasons to swing the vote.

    Those 3.5-4% of the turnout were also the section of the population most likely to turn up at the polling station. So in reality when you've got a ~65%ish turnout and probably 90% of the "Leave for the wrong reasons" voters turning out, you only need like 2.5% of the country to fall into that category and it swings the vote.

    Do I think at least 2.5% of the country are racist? Almost certainly. I have no problem recalling at least one person per class from school that was racist - unfortunately.

    --

    I'm not sure leaving even now is a good idea, despite the referendum outcome - The older "Leave" voters are going to kick the bucket at a faster rate than younger remainers (and will have been doing so since the referendum) whereas the 16/17 year olds then who would be able to vote now will be like 75-80% remain voters.

    A second referendum would probably reinforce the stronger views of people on either side - "Leaving has been an absolute mess" vs "We voted leave so we're **** leaving because it's the will of the people dammit", and probably win over those in the middle towards the remain side generally. The lower remain turnouts who took the result for granted would certainly be there this time, and a younger generation of higher turnout remain voters than before would win a couple of % from the aging leave population.

    I think a hypothetical 2nd referendum tomorrow would probs be anywhere from about 56/44 remain win to maybe 60/40.

    --

    Fwiw, voted remain here. I was mostly interested in the £££ side of things - Couldn't care less about the colour of someone's skin or someone's accent, which is what so much of the campaigning unfortunately focused on.

    Did anyone get that leaflet from the leave campaign, the gist of which was "TURKEY MIGHT JOIN THE EU AND TURKEY SHARES A BORDER WITH SYRIA AND IRAQ AND THEY HAVE MUSLIMS WHICH MEANS ISIS SO VOTE LEAVE"

    Obvs I don't have any of those views.

    That leaflet made me laugh given there's no way in **** Turkey gets into the EU any time soon if you look at the criteria.

    The "Remain" argument was woeful too. But in the event that we made a mistake, leaving at a later date is much more easily done than rejoining the EU.
  • conorshay1conorshay1 Member Posts: 139
    politics is for people who believe they can make a difference via the political system , they cant because politicians are just puppets put in front of the people to make the people believe they can , so very sad . p.s eat organic, don't let the bastards poison you.
  • TheEdge949TheEdge949 Member Posts: 1,282
    The most ignorance was shown by those Remainers who upon realising that their self serving gravy train was about to derail. Just decided that as they didn't like the result wed do it all again and started demanding another referendum. We'll just rewrite the rules of the oldest democracy in the world then shall we just for you.

    Even more crazy now is the action of the House of Lords, a totally unelected body of rich, wealthy and influential people who are sabotaging the whole process because they don't like it or rather they don't like the potential for change.

    And as for those who are criticising the elderly how ignorant are you?. They were the people who firstly built this Country and secondly were the ones whose fathers, uncles,
    and grandfathers gave everything so that we wouldn't become an Island ruled by a European power. They more than any have the right to say Out if they wish.

    However, those who seized upon the referendum to espouse vitriolic hatred towards people from different cultures and backgrounds have no place in a civilised society. For many though the vote was simply a way to tell Europe and its cronies. Enough. For me it was about not being told who we could trade with or having to accept some set of governance drawn up to solve a labour or trade dispute in another country which then has to be applied across the whole Union.

    It was my generations "Rage Against The Machine" moment. You know, the one where we all faced Europe stuck two fingers in the air and screamed "Fk you I wont do what you tell me"

    Oh and before anybody here denounces me I'm neither a racist or a bigot. I am a Evangelical Christian working with the homeless, volunteering at foodbanks, doing street chaplaincy and interacting with the underprivaleged and those in crisis, all colours, all creeds, all religions, all equal.

    Perhaps when the deal is done both sides will feel that things could have been better for their particular camp. as in all things compromise will hold sway, after all Germany and France aren't going to stop trading with us, they make too much money and the rest of Europe will do what those two say just like we did.

    Yours in Politics

    Mark
  • amnotere26amnotere26 Member Posts: 27
    HAYSIE said:

    I think that very few people really knew what they were voting for, or what the consequences might be. Many voted on ideological reasons. I am not sure how taking back our sovereignty affects the average working man on a daily basis. Some voted "Leave" to restrict immigration, but we need immigrants, and just leaving the EU in itself is not guaranteed to reduce immigration.
    It is a scandal that 2 years after the referendum, we still haven't a clue as to what will happen.
    I am not sure that many people would have voted to leave if it had been clear that this would mean many job losses, and people becoming poorer.

    jesus what a boring **** bet u empty a pub as soon as u walk in
  • kapowblamzkapowblamz Member Posts: 1,119



    jesus what a boring **** bet u empty a pub as soon as u walk in

    You voted leave, didn't you?

  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 83,173



    jesus what a boring **** bet u empty a pub as soon as u walk in

    You voted leave, didn't you?

    As put-downs go, that's pretty good, wp, wp.

    A+
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 12,519
    Tikay10 said:



    jesus what a boring **** bet u empty a pub as soon as u walk in

    You voted leave, didn't you?

    As put-downs go, that's pretty good, wp, wp.

    A+
    Excellent
  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 7,377
    2 Stoke fans in the thread and both voted leave.

    What do the French say; quelle surprise?
  • EvilPinguEvilPingu Member Posts: 3,426

    2 Stoke fans in the thread and both voted leave.

    What do the French say; quelle surprise?

    I'm more surprised that Stoke have two fans.
  • EvilPinguEvilPingu Member Posts: 3,426

    The most ignorance was shown by those Remainers who upon realising that their self serving gravy train was about to derail. Just decided that as they didn't like the result wed do it all again and started demanding another referendum. We'll just rewrite the rules of the oldest democracy in the world then shall we just for you.

    If "Remain" had won 52/48, I can absolutely guarantee that Farage would be on every morning talk show doing the same thing, plenty of Brexit supporters would still be vocal about wanting to leave, and many of the people asking for a second referendum when it benefits their side would instead be saying the exact same thing about democracy.

    The Scottish independence referendum had the same thing with the losing side still testing the waters for Indyref 2 from the moment that Indyref 1 failed.

    And as for those who are criticising the elderly how ignorant are you?. They were the people who firstly built this Country and secondly were the ones whose fathers, uncles,
    and grandfathers gave everything so that we wouldn't become an Island ruled by a European power. They more than any have the right to say Out if they wish.

    Again, if "Remain" had won there would be just as many older people criticising young voters for 'not understanding politics' and not having experienced the issues that led to the surge in UKIP votes.

    I've always been in favour of voting at 16 - Slight tangent but I remember being during the 2010 elections where one of the biggest issues was the cost of education, but as a 16 year old who would be impacted most by £9k/year of student debt, I was unable to vote for the party that promised free University tuition.

    As it happened, I convinced my Dad (who wasn't going to bother voting) to vote Lib Dem on my behalf, so I still effectively 'voted', I guess. Okay, that was probably not the best decision in hindsight :lol:

    The Brexit vote was the second time in a 6 year span where young people felt they were screwed by older people making decisions on their behalf which contradicted their views where their voices were unable to be heard.

    I can completely understand why younger people who have experienced that would feel anger towards the older generation as a result - Particularly in light of issues such as the housing crisis where once again, young people are being screwed by a party that older people voted for failing to address the issues that affect young people today.





    Okay thread just got serious there's graphs involved now :lol:

    I do think it's reasonable to question the validity of a 52/48 result given such strong preference towards "Remain" for younger people who weren't of voting age but are clearly capable of making decisions on things that will impact their future.

    It's also reasonable to question whether 52/48 is enough to take us out of Europe nearly three years after the date of the referendum when far more old leave voters than young remain voters are dying, and being replaced by 18 year olds who, depending which numbers you look at, are anywhere from about 65-80% to have voted to remain.
  • TheEdge949TheEdge949 Member Posts: 1,282
    Most 16 year old would vote for any party that offered them free pizza an alcopop and a copy of razzle. Ok that's a tongue in cheek generalisation but for every 16yo who may be mature enough to understand the various political options and the impact that those options could have there are probably 50 who cant even understand contraception.

    Don't even get me started on Student voters. Every election in Stoke sees them campaigning vocally for their preferred M.P., Councillor or mayor etc then what happens halfway down the stretch ?. They finish Uni and move away whilst the rest of us have to live with the potential disaster they've imposed and next time theres gonna be about 9,000 of them spread over the 2 Unis.

    As for the correlation between Stoke fans and voting Leave. whats the implied point ??. As Stoke as an area voted 70% leave and given the fact that most Stoke supporters live locally, unlike some teams we could mention, statistically youd be hard pushed to find a Stoke fan who didn't vote leave. If as I suspect its a thinly veiled accusation that as Stoke fans and Leave voters we are intrinsically racist then you may be surprised that during WW2 Stoke housed thousands of displaced persons from central Europe who after the war got jobs in the Steel, coal and pottery industries which would still be thriving today if the Eurocrats had decided to invest just a little of the mountains of Wonga into one of the U.Ks 20 biggest cities.

    Yours in indignation

    Mark
  • EvilPinguEvilPingu Member Posts: 3,426

    Most 16 year old would vote for any party that offered them free pizza an alcopop and a copy of razzle. Ok that's a tongue in cheek generalisation but for every 16yo who may be mature enough to understand the various political options and the impact that those options could have there are probably 50 who cant even understand contraception.

    Given that 1910 was the last time a seat was won by a single vote, I think I'm taking my chances and locking up the free pizza and an alcopop in that spot. Unless they have to actually get into power before you get the pizza. Then I wouldn't bother. ;)

    I wonder if @Tikay10 voted when Ilkeston was won by 2 votes in 1931. Not sure the alcopop would have appealed, mind.

    Definitely underestimating young people's intelligence with that assumption though. Yes, there's some people that won't understand what they've voting for, but that's true of plenty of adults as well, such as the "I'm voting Labour because I've voted Labour all my life because my parents always voted Labour" voter.

    A lot of 16 year olds who don't understand what they're voting for are also not likely to bother voting because they haven't formed an opinion strong enough that they feel makes it worth their time to vote.

    When Nick Clegg screwed everyone over by going back on promises on tuition fees, I was in my first year at College and there tons of people who took it upon themselves to find out what was happening, how it affected them and what they could do about it.

    If we give teenagers a reason to care, they'll take far more interest in politics. If you keep the voting age at 18, then they're not going to understand any sooner because many young people will see that they have no reason to try to learn. Of course 14 year olds aren't going to stand around in the playground debating the merits of dropping the maximum stake on a FOBT to £2 for hours, but around election times there'll definitely be enough hype for people to take more of an interest, particularly given it'll be their first time voting.

    Also with how much political content ends up on social media nowadays and everyone being glued to a smartphone, it's nearly impossible to not pick up at least some knowledge of what's happening in the world.

    Don't even get me started on Student voters. Every election in Stoke sees them campaigning vocally for their preferred M.P., Councillor or mayor etc then what happens halfway down the stretch ?. They finish Uni and move away whilst the rest of us have to live with the potential disaster they've imposed and next time theres gonna be about 9,000 of them spread over the 2 Unis.

    By that logic you've also got several thousand people replacing them every year who didn't vote for the person in power for some (if not all) of their time at Uni. Their views will in all likelihood align most with the previous students who left far more than the people who have been living in that particular city for however long who fit into entirely different demographics. Swings and roundabouts.
  • TheEdge949TheEdge949 Member Posts: 1,282
    Can I just say how refreshing it is to have a diametrically opposing views being able to debate without recourse to petty slanging.

    Whilst i may not agree with what you say Ill fight to the death to defend your right to say it.

    Mark
  • GELDYGELDY Member Posts: 5,196
    Surely the problem for Stoke is the lack of investment by successive UK governments.

    The EU has been pumping in a lot of cash into deprived UK areas, but it cannot finance them all. The UK must shoulder some of the responsibility for getting its house in order.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 12,519

    TheEdge949 Posts: 92Member
    May 11
    The most ignorance was shown by those Remainers who upon realising that their self serving gravy train was about to derail. Just decided that as they didn't like the result wed do it all again and started demanding another referendum. We'll just rewrite the rules of the oldest democracy in the world then shall we just for you.

    Nigel Farage was interviewed on tv a couple of days before the referendum and as he and everyone else was expecting "vote leave" to lose, clearly said that there would have to be another referendum.
    I am not sure which gravy train was populated only by remainers, but the truth is that the UK gravy train will be derailed when we leave the EU.


    Even more crazy now is the action of the House of Lords, a totally unelected body of rich, wealthy and influential people who are sabotaging the whole process because they don't like it or rather they don't like the potential for change.

    Brexiteers have a very flexible pitch. On the one hand they say that one of the more important aspects of leaving the EU was to take back control of our laws. On the other hand, they squeal like stuck pigs, when the House of Lords exert this control. Over the last couple of weeks the Lords from all parties have voted down 14 Government Bills which doesn't suit the Brexiteers.


    And as for those who are criticising the elderly how ignorant are you?. They were the people who firstly built this Country and secondly were the ones whose fathers, uncles,
    and grandfathers gave everything so that we wouldn't become an Island ruled by a European power. They more than any have the right to say Out if they wish.

    Nevertheless, the facts are that the vast majority of older people voted to leave, and a huge majority of younger people voted to remain.
    By the time we actually leave many of the older leave voters will be dead, and many of the younger remain voters will become eligible to vote.

    However, those who seized upon the referendum to espouse vitriolic hatred towards people from different cultures and backgrounds have no place in a civilised society. For many though the vote was simply a way to tell Europe and its cronies. Enough. For me it was about not being told who we could trade with or having to accept some set of governance drawn up to solve a labour or trade dispute in another country which then has to be applied across the whole Union.

    Leaving the EU will not automatically solve any perceived immigration problems. Only 50% of them come from Europe.
    We already trade with many countries without having trade deals.
    The EU currently has 67 trade deals with non EU countries that we currently have access to. The deal they signed with Canada took 7 years to negotiate. How long will it take for us just to replace trade lost with the EU and the 67 other countries?
    Many of the EU laws that protect our workers are applauded by the Labour Party, and Trade Unions, but not so much by the Tories. Many people think that the Tories will use the taking back of this control to repeal some of these laws, making our workers worse off.

    It was my generations "Rage Against The Machine" moment. You know, the one where we all faced Europe stuck two fingers in the air and screamed "Fk you I wont do what you tell me"

    What on earth have the EU ever demanded that you personally have to do?

    Perhaps when the deal is done both sides will feel that things could have been better for their particular camp. as in all things compromise will hold sway, after all Germany and France aren't going to stop trading with us, they make too much money and the rest of Europe will do what those two say just like we did.

    If the EU gave us the same deal as non members, as we got as members, the whole thing would fall apart, so we have got to be worse off. Any tariffs may see our manufacturers relocating to Europe.
    In addition we have to replace the other 67 trade deals.
    We will definitely be poorer.
    I have asked a number of people which EU laws have affected their lives adversely. I have also asked how taking back these controls will affect their lives on a daily basis. So far I have not received an answer.
  • TheEdge949TheEdge949 Member Posts: 1,282
    What on earth have the EU ever demanded that you personally have to do?

    Well firstly its asked me to accept limitations, laws and conditions that I have had no debate, discussion or input into. It's demanded that I prop up unsustainable economic regimes ( and yes its personal when any part of my taxes are used to bail out Ireland, Greece, Italy etc) instead of bailing out our homegrown disasters (N.H.S, Education, social welfare etc)

    Suppose your neighbour said to you "Haysie. I cant afford to pay my mortgage please pay it for me" and after you said "Sorry but I'm struggling to pay my own" your mortgage provider turned to you and informed you that its actually a condition of your own deal that you must now pay your neighbours debt as well. How would you feel ??

    I would wager that you'd be round to some specialist legal bod pretty sharpish to find a way out of it.

    Well thanks Mr. Cameron for being that bod and allowing me to get out of something I was taken into as a person too young to vote and have actively despised ever since.

    The EU is fine If you're the one with your hand out.

    Mark
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 12,519
    That is a really weird take on things.
    Are you really deluding yourself that you will be able have some debate on any law before it is enacted?
    Name one EU law you don't like.
    I don't really think that you personally bailed out Italy, Greece or Ireland.
    What clearly happens is that the UK pays an agreed payment each year in respect of membership. This membership gives us benefits which have helped us to prosper for the last forty odd years. We also receive a rebate.
    The EU can then use part of their budget to assist the member countries in any difficulties they may have, sometimes by providing loans. Are you saying that the EU should not help the people of these countries.
    If after leaving the EU, our economy goes into meltdown, who will bail us out?
    We also, as an independent country, and nothing to do with the EU, offer aid to other countries, and refugees throughout the world, in cases of famines and disasters etc. Are you saying we shouldn't do this?
    Many people seem to dislike the EU, this dislike in many cases is in respect of things that the EU is not responsible for.
    The mortgage analogy is non sensical.
    Leaving the EU is certainly going to make the UK worse off, but will clearly make some people happy.
    Who will they blame when we are out?
  • TheEdge949TheEdge949 Member Posts: 1,282
    I give you the perfect analogy and you call it nonsensical.

    What EU law don't I like ? EU emissions, the German and French motor industry needs to make more money so lets bring about a law change and force everybody to get a newer model of car or pay for catalytic converters.

    Working hours directives (which helped bring about zero hours contracts). If a company says its working week is 48 hours then that's what it is. Nobodies forcing the employee to take the job

    How about the one that says the U.K. has to take a certain % of refugees from each international disaster. YES of course we should help peoples afflicted in other countries but only because we WANT to and we CAN not because we are TOLD to.

    Or the one that says if we wish to trade with an American manufacturer we have to trade within certain parameters to prevent an unfair advantage over other member nations. Why should I give a hoot if a Portuguese industry collapses. Its called Capitalism and market forces. At the end of the day nobody came galloping over the hill to save British industries. Fishing, Coal, Steel, Textile, Shipbuilding and Automotive all gone since we joined. Co-incidence ???

    How about a system that pays farmers to produce and then destroy wheat, milk, meat etc. Whilst we as a nation are fed constant t.v. appeals for money to ease starvation and hunger in stricken areas. Or says that fish stocks can be fished to within a season of extinction in British waters but we cant export our beef because it prevents other members from having a viable industry.

    In fact NAME ONE EXAMPLE WHERE WE AS A NATION HAVE BEEN A BENEFICIARY OF EU POLICY AT THE EXPENSE OF ANOTHER FULL MEMBER.

    The financial bailouts were only viable after extra money was forthcoming from member nations and were not financed through the annual payments. Oh and as for the rebates can you tell me why our rebate was smaller than most when our contributions were larger than most.

    The only reason other nations want to become members is because of the financial assistance that's forthcoming. Its a European begging bowl with nations wanting to assume positions that their GDP and their economy just cant sustain.

    I could understand the hysteria of the remainers if there was a current precedent that painted a gloomy picture yet countries like Australia, Canada, Japan and New Zealand all have thriving economies, sensible immigration policy, better welfare and education, less social problems and manage to trade all over the world without having to worry about what 26 other nations might think.

    I fully take on board the points about the views of the snowflake generation raised in the gentrified era of the Europhile, they probably wanted us to join the single currency, but consider this. a poll was conducted in 1975 asking people if they could go back and vote on joining the common market what would they do 62% said they would have voted to not join. So maybe it was a huge mistake in the first place that's taken some 40 + years to rectify.

    The Common Market was set up initially to help European Countries' conglomorates and Nationalised Industries strengthen their share of markets and protecting them from aggressive rest of the world strategies regarding such things as raw materials / import tariffs/ quotas etc.

    It was never designed to become the Good Old U.S of E which is pretty much the purpose it serves now.


    Yours in debate

    Mark
  • GELDYGELDY Member Posts: 5,196

    What on earth have the EU ever demanded that you personally have to do?

    Well firstly its asked me to accept limitations, laws and conditions that I have had no debate, discussion or input into. It's demanded that I prop up unsustainable economic regimes ( and yes its personal when any part of my taxes are used to bail out Ireland, Greece, Italy etc) instead of bailing out our homegrown disasters (N.H.S, Education, social welfare etc)

    Suppose your neighbour said to you "Haysie. I cant afford to pay my mortgage please pay it for me" and after you said "Sorry but I'm struggling to pay my own" your mortgage provider turned to you and informed you that its actually a condition of your own deal that you must now pay your neighbours debt as well. How would you feel ??

    I would wager that you'd be round to some specialist legal bod pretty sharpish to find a way out of it.

    Well thanks Mr. Cameron for being that bod and allowing me to get out of something I was taken into as a person too young to vote and have actively despised ever since.

    The EU is fine If you're the one with your hand out.

    Mark

    Bailouts were restricted to Eurozone members. UK paid nothing towards them.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 12,519
    edited May 2018
    Bailouts were restricted to Eurozone members. UK paid nothing towards them.
    As I said, you didn't bail out any of the previously mentioned countries Edge, and many people mistakenly criticise the EU.
    Leaving is going to make us poorer.
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