Not the case at all , you didn't have to be a rocket scientist pre brexit vote , to realise that if you voted leave , then you couldn't be sure what the exact deal was going to be , as if you voted remain , what the potential benefits to the country might be long term .
With all due respect I think remain voters were those that saw the benefits that EU membership gave us, liked the status quo, and didn't want change.
Where many leave voters did so on the basis of taking back control of our money, borders, and laws, reducing immigration, sovereignty, fishing rights etc etc
I cant remember much talk of what would happen after we left, although there were claims that have turned out to be untrue. Although at the time they were made it was difficult to tell.
And it could also be levelled at Remain voters that they were/are unwilling to explore any advantages down the line of leaving .
And therein lies one of the main issues , why it was difficult to cast an informed vote .
I'm sure Haysie will be along shortly to point out why he's wrong about all of it
Thanks for this, it is exactly the type of thing I have been asking others for, it would have been nice to have these views mentioned pre referendum but hey ho. I’m only able to skim read at present , but on first glance I’m rather skeptical about the gdpr, workers rights issues, and I think he mentioned privatising the post office was following eu instructions ( for wNt of a better word) Now I’m no genius but I do know Tory policy isn’t to nationalise businesses
Bit worried you’re fixating on Haysie and calling him a liar now, what happened to me being the object of your derision ? 😏
I'm sure Haysie will be along shortly to point out why he's wrong about all of it
Thanks for this, it is exactly the type of thing I have been asking others for, it would have been nice to have these views mentioned pre referendum but hey ho. I’m only able to skim read at present , but on first glance I’m rather skeptical about the gdpr, workers rights issues, and I think he mentioned privatising the post office was following eu instructions ( for wNt of a better word) Now I’m no genius but I do know Tory policy isn’t to nationalise businesses
Bit worried you’re fixating on Haysie and calling him a liar now, what happened to me being the object of your derision ? 😏
Oh , are you actually saying that you voted without really knowing all the facts ? If you are going to challenge anything Arnott has said probably a good idea to back it up with facts and read the article properly . Please reference where I have called him a liar . And I wouldn't worry about me fixating on you , after your " poor me " diatribe the other day I decided it would be like shooting fish in a barrel . Happy to help
I'm sure Haysie will be along shortly to point out why he's wrong about all of it
Thanks for this, it is exactly the type of thing I have been asking others for, it would have been nice to have these views mentioned pre referendum but hey ho. I’m only able to skim read at present , but on first glance I’m rather skeptical about the gdpr, workers rights issues, and I think he mentioned privatising the post office was following eu instructions ( for wNt of a better word) Now I’m no genius but I do know Tory policy isn’t to nationalise businesses
Bit worried you’re fixating on Haysie and calling him a liar now, what happened to me being the object of your derision ? 😏
Oh , are you actually saying that you voted without really knowing all the facts ? If you are going to challenge anything Arnott has said probably a good idea to back it up with facts and read the article properly . Please reference where I have called him a liar . And I wouldn't worry about me fixating on you , after your " poor me " diatribe the other day I decided it would be like shooting fish in a barrel . Happy to help
That’s better I’m beginning to like you, have you always been this bitter towards men or is it just a recent thing?
I'm sure Haysie will be along shortly to point out why he's wrong about all of it
Thanks for this, it is exactly the type of thing I have been asking others for, it would have been nice to have these views mentioned pre referendum but hey ho. I’m only able to skim read at present , but on first glance I’m rather skeptical about the gdpr, workers rights issues, and I think he mentioned privatising the post office was following eu instructions ( for wNt of a better word) Now I’m no genius but I do know Tory policy isn’t to nationalise businesses
Bit worried you’re fixating on Haysie and calling him a liar now, what happened to me being the object of your derision ? 😏
Oh , are you actually saying that you voted without really knowing all the facts ? If you are going to challenge anything Arnott has said probably a good idea to back it up with facts and read the article properly . Please reference where I have called him a liar . And I wouldn't worry about me fixating on you , after your " poor me " diatribe the other day I decided it would be like shooting fish in a barrel . Happy to help
That’s better I’m beginning to like you, have you always been this bitter towards men or is it just a recent thing?
I’m busy working at present, may read it later.
You class yourself in that ? I'd worry about letting your emotions cloud your posts , you do have history for that . If i was you , i suggest you might be better served by educating yourself on different brexit views ( which is what you asked for ) , rather than try to " outsnide " me ..it's a battle you can't win . Have a good day at work
Not the case at all , you didn't have to be a rocket scientist pre brexit vote , to realise that if you voted leave , then you couldn't be sure what the exact deal was going to be , as if you voted remain , what the potential benefits to the country might be long term .
With all due respect I think remain voters were those that saw the benefits that EU membership gave us, liked the status quo, and didn't want change.
Where many leave voters did so on the basis of taking back control of our money, borders, and laws, reducing immigration, sovereignty, fishing rights etc etc
I cant remember much talk of what would happen after we left, although there were claims that have turned out to be untrue. Although at the time they were made it was difficult to tell.
And it could also be levelled at Remain voters that they were/are unwilling to explore any advantages down the line of leaving .
And therein lies one of the main issues , why it was difficult to cast an informed vote .
What I have said is true. At the time of the referendum people were asked to make a binary choice. There was little talk of what the subsequent relationship might be. For instance I cant remember any mention of the Irish border, which has proved to be such a problem. Nobody was asking what would happen to the Irish border if we left The Single Market, and The Customs Union.
So if you said I didn't vote because I wasn't sure what would happen with the Irish border, I don't think this would be a valid claim.
Similarly I don't think it is valid to cite the problems that have come to light since the referendum either.
Around 34 million people managed it, many of whom knew nothing about The Single Market, The Customs Union, the Irish border, and didn't have a clue about what our trading relationship with the EU might be like.
Not the case at all , you didn't have to be a rocket scientist pre brexit vote , to realise that if you voted leave , then you couldn't be sure what the exact deal was going to be , as if you voted remain , what the potential benefits to the country might be long term .
With all due respect I think remain voters were those that saw the benefits that EU membership gave us, liked the status quo, and didn't want change.
Where many leave voters did so on the basis of taking back control of our money, borders, and laws, reducing immigration, sovereignty, fishing rights etc etc
I cant remember much talk of what would happen after we left, although there were claims that have turned out to be untrue. Although at the time they were made it was difficult to tell.
And it could also be levelled at Remain voters that they were/are unwilling to explore any advantages down the line of leaving .
And therein lies one of the main issues , why it was difficult to cast an informed vote .
What I have said is true. At the time of the referendum people were asked to make a binary choice. There was little talk of what the subsequent relationship might be. For instance I cant remember any mention of the Irish border, which has proved to be such a problem. Nobody was asking what would happen to the Irish border if we left The Single Market, and TH Customs Union.
So if you said I didn't vote because I wasn't sure what would happen with the Irish border, I don't think this would be a valid claim.
Similarly I don't think it is valid to cite the problems that have come to light since the referendum either.
Around 34 million people managed it, many of whom knew nothing about The Single Market, The Customs Union, the Irish border, and didn't have a clue about what our trading relationship with the EU might be like.
Once again , I didn't say that. Whether you think my points are valid or not is a total irrelevance to me . The few readers who read this will already have a very good snapshot of your mindset .
Advocating uninformed voting ..genius again . You are also in favour of a 2nd referendum , presumably that would be on the basis that people voted without really knowing the consequences or likely deal ...You can't have it both ways , you cant suggest we should make everyone vote ( uninformed or not ) , but if we don't like the result , we will make them vote again .
Rant over-can always spot a man who just lost DYMs at 1.10/2.20/3.30 when got decent streaks going...
I agree with a lot of what you say in this post, and it is obviously the common sense that we would expect from you.
One of the things I would dispute is that not leaving would be the end of democracy. I don't think that democracy just existed for one day in 2016. How valid is the vote if there was so many false claims fed to the electorate. Shouldn't people be allowed to just change their minds? Who even contemplated a Blind Brexit?
As far as the campaign is concerned, I would agree that although both sides don't emerge blameless, the leave campaign were worse. They have fallen foul of the Electoral Commission, and criminal charges may follow. Some of their false claims regarding immigration were horrendous, and I am certain they struck fear into many people and affected the vote.
We have electoral rules, which are meant to protect our democracy. Yet when they are broken the only remedy is to fine those involved, but still respect the result. I would say that it is difficult to know how much the result was affected by Aaron Banks, Russian bots, Cambridge Analytica, and Facebook, and I suppose we will never know. Although I don't suppose it portrays our democracy well.
Is democracy really about The Government pursuing a policy in the certain knowledge that it will make the country worse off.
The Chancellor claimed the other day that even though leaving the EU will be damaging to the economy, there will be political benefits. I am not sure how many people will think the cost of these political benefits is worthwhile. There will be a cost to everyone. Yet I don't think that the political benefits of taking back control will do much for me. It would seem we are taking back control of our borders by not having any? We are stopping Freedom of Movement, but encouraging immigration from elsewhere? We are taking back control of our money by not sending our contributions to the EU, but our GDP will be worse off by more than the contributions, so we gain nothing? We are taking back control of our laws, when according to Nick Clegg, only 7% of our Primary Legislation came from Europe? So we already had control of 93%, and many of the laws that came from the EU benefitted our citizens.
Taking this control back to our Parliament has left it in chaos.
So all in all I am not sure what I will gain from the political benefits, but I will be unhappy about the cost.
On your last point, I am not sure how it is going to be possible for the country to move on, when the future trade negotiations are likely to go on for years to come. There is definitely going to be ructions over the fishing for instance, and probably disappointments in other areas, which will play out on a daily basis in the media. Is leaving without knowing what we are getting really democracy?
One of the major advantages of leaving was to have the ability to strike free trade deals elsewhere.
Yet these projected future trade deals have a miniscule impact in the latest Treasury Analysis.
Liz Truss said she wasn't certain of the reason for this, and suggested that it was probably because we already traded with the countries that were taken into account. So what she was saying was that as we already do significant trade with the USA, to strike a free trade deal with them would not increase the amount of trade by much.
In addition to this we lose access to the EU free trade deals on leaving.
Also to continue to trade significantly with the EU we have to remain aligned with them. This alignment will be a barrier to free trade deals elsewhere. We therefore have a choice of remaining aligned with our biggest trading partner, or to strike trade deals freely elsewhere. This was not the pitch we got from the Brexiteers.
We now have the PM pursuing a deal that has been described by a number of politicians as the worst of all worlds.
Because she is trying to get a deal that makes everyone happy, nobody is happy.
Is striking a deal that nobody is happy with, and makes the country poorer, really democracy.
The ex Brexit Secretary, an ardent leave voter, amongst others, has said he would prefer to stay in, than accept her deal.
Then we get on to what happens next.
It seems like she will lose the meaningful vote in Parliament. Whether she brings it back for a second vote seems to depend on how many votes she loses by.
Then it is the lap of the Gods.
There could be an Election, and The Tories would appoint a new leader to fight it. So would a new Tory leader start all over again?
Labour could win it and they would start all over again. Unless they included another referendum in their manifesto.
The Tories might trigger a leadership challenge. If Theresa May won, where would that leave us?
I think I speak for the Forum (all 10 of us ) when I say that this thread needs fresh ideas. It was bad enough when the 2 of you were attacking 1 another, but now the prospect of the 2 of you getting a room and debating in versus out is too terrible to contemplate!
My thoughts are:-
1. It is rarely a good idea to let the people vote in referenda; 2. The campaign was appalling on both sides, not only with barefaced lies but a total failure to address any of the issues; 3. If economics were the only yardstick, then better to remain, not least because our trade policies have been allied there for the last 45 years; 4. Trade is not the only issue here-we are talking about European Union, not a Common Market; 5. Rightly or wrongly, the people have spoken-we have to leave, regardless of my own views. We have always been geographically and economically on the edge of Europe, with a level of mutual distrust. We can debate Norway vs Canada all day, but we have to leave, or democracy just died in our country; 6. There is no time for a second (or more accurately third) vote, just like there is no time for an election or for Lord Snooty to start negotiations all over again; 7. It really is time this country moved on, did a deal whereby May agreed to step down in return for people supporting this agreement, and provide business with legal certainty
Rant over-can always spot a man who just lost DYMs at 1.10/2.20/3.30 when got decent streaks going...
First agreement of the day .
Second agreement of the day , problem is Haysie would have everyone vote , regardless of this.
34 million people managed it,
We have all read leave politicians and supporters stress it's not just about economics .
I would really be interested in the way the political gains will be to your advantage, and your personal tangible gains?
Theresa May has pretty much ruled out a " norway style " option .
She has ruled out all other options.
That still won't stop Haysie from banging his drum , even up to and probably after receiving his telegram .
I think the country is a million miles away from moving on. What do you think is going to happen next
Comments
Where many leave voters did so on the basis of taking back control of our money, borders, and laws, reducing immigration, sovereignty, fishing rights etc etc
I cant remember much talk of what would happen after we left, although there were claims that have turned out to be untrue. Although at the time they were made it was difficult to tell.
And it could also be levelled at Remain voters that they were/are unwilling to explore any advantages down the line of leaving .
And therein lies one of the main issues , why it was difficult to cast an informed vote .
I'm sure Haysie will be along shortly to point out why he's wrong about all of it
I’m only able to skim read at present , but on first glance I’m rather skeptical about the gdpr, workers rights issues, and I think he mentioned privatising the post office was following eu instructions ( for wNt of a better word)
Now I’m no genius but I do know Tory policy isn’t to nationalise businesses
Bit worried you’re fixating on Haysie and calling him a liar now, what happened to me being the object of your derision ? 😏
If you are going to challenge anything Arnott has said probably a good idea to back it up with facts and read the article properly .
Please reference where I have called him a liar . And I wouldn't worry about me fixating on you , after your " poor me " diatribe the other day I decided it would be like shooting fish in a barrel . Happy to help
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6025233/Jeremy-Paxman-admits-flip-flopped-Brexit-vote-changed-mind-polling-station.html
I’m beginning to like you, have you always been this bitter towards men or is it just a recent thing?
I’m busy working at present, may read it later.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/11/16/7-more-things-weve-learned-about-public-opinion-br
Keep up the good work Dobie.
And therein lies one of the main issues , why it was difficult to cast an informed vote .
What I have said is true.
At the time of the referendum people were asked to make a binary choice. There was little talk of what the subsequent relationship might be.
For instance I cant remember any mention of the Irish border, which has proved to be such a problem.
Nobody was asking what would happen to the Irish border if we left The Single Market, and The Customs Union.
So if you said I didn't vote because I wasn't sure what would happen with the Irish border, I don't think this would be a valid claim.
Similarly I don't think it is valid to cite the problems that have come to light since the referendum either.
Around 34 million people managed it, many of whom knew nothing about The Single Market, The Customs Union, the Irish border, and didn't have a clue about what our trading relationship with the EU might be like.
At the time of the referendum people were asked to make a binary choice. There was little talk of what the subsequent relationship might be.
For instance I cant remember any mention of the Irish border, which has proved to be such a problem.
Nobody was asking what would happen to the Irish border if we left The Single Market, and TH Customs Union.
So if you said I didn't vote because I wasn't sure what would happen with the Irish border, I don't think this would be a valid claim.
Similarly I don't think it is valid to cite the problems that have come to light since the referendum either.
Around 34 million people managed it, many of whom knew nothing about The Single Market, The Customs Union, the Irish border, and didn't have a clue about what our trading relationship with the EU might be like.
Once again , I didn't say that. Whether you think my points are valid or not is a total irrelevance to me . The few readers who read this will already have a very good snapshot of your mindset .
Advocating uninformed voting ..genius again . You are also in favour of a 2nd referendum , presumably that would be on the basis that people voted without really knowing the consequences or likely deal ...You can't have it both ways , you cant suggest we should make everyone vote ( uninformed or not ) , but if we don't like the result , we will make them vote again .
Rant over-can always spot a man who just lost DYMs at 1.10/2.20/3.30 when got decent streaks going...
I agree with a lot of what you say in this post, and it is obviously the common sense that we would expect from you.
One of the things I would dispute is that not leaving would be the end of democracy. I don't think that democracy just existed for one day in 2016. How valid is the vote if there was so many false claims fed to the electorate. Shouldn't people be allowed to just change their minds? Who even contemplated a Blind Brexit?
As far as the campaign is concerned, I would agree that although both sides don't emerge blameless, the leave campaign were worse. They have fallen foul of the Electoral Commission, and criminal charges may follow. Some of their false claims regarding immigration were horrendous, and I am certain they struck fear into many people and affected the vote.
We have electoral rules, which are meant to protect our democracy. Yet when they are broken the only remedy is to fine those involved, but still respect the result. I would say that it is difficult to know how much the result was affected by Aaron Banks, Russian bots, Cambridge Analytica, and Facebook, and I suppose we will never know. Although I don't suppose it portrays our democracy well.
Is democracy really about The Government pursuing a policy in the certain knowledge that it will make the country worse off.
The Chancellor claimed the other day that even though leaving the EU will be damaging to the economy, there will be political benefits. I am not sure how many people will think the cost of these political benefits is worthwhile.
There will be a cost to everyone. Yet I don't think that the political benefits of taking back control will do much for me.
It would seem we are taking back control of our borders by not having any?
We are stopping Freedom of Movement, but encouraging immigration from elsewhere?
We are taking back control of our money by not sending our contributions to the EU, but our GDP will be worse off by more than the contributions, so we gain nothing?
We are taking back control of our laws, when according to Nick Clegg, only 7% of our Primary Legislation came from Europe?
So we already had control of 93%, and many of the laws that came from the EU benefitted our citizens.
Taking this control back to our Parliament has left it in chaos.
So all in all I am not sure what I will gain from the political benefits, but I will be unhappy about the cost.
On your last point, I am not sure how it is going to be possible for the country to move on, when the future trade negotiations are likely to go on for years to come. There is definitely going to be ructions over the fishing for instance, and probably disappointments in other areas, which will play out on a daily basis in the media. Is leaving without knowing what we are getting really democracy?
One of the major advantages of leaving was to have the ability to strike free trade deals elsewhere.
Yet these projected future trade deals have a miniscule impact in the latest Treasury Analysis.
Liz Truss said she wasn't certain of the reason for this, and suggested that it was probably because we already traded with the countries that were taken into account. So what she was saying was that as we already do significant trade with the USA, to strike a free trade deal with them would not increase the amount of trade by much.
In addition to this we lose access to the EU free trade deals on leaving.
Also to continue to trade significantly with the EU we have to remain aligned with them. This alignment will be a barrier to free trade deals elsewhere.
We therefore have a choice of remaining aligned with our biggest trading partner, or to strike trade deals freely elsewhere. This was not the pitch we got from the Brexiteers.
We now have the PM pursuing a deal that has been described by a number of politicians as the worst of all worlds.
Because she is trying to get a deal that makes everyone happy, nobody is happy.
Is striking a deal that nobody is happy with, and makes the country poorer, really democracy.
The ex Brexit Secretary, an ardent leave voter, amongst others, has said he would prefer to stay in, than accept her deal.
Then we get on to what happens next.
It seems like she will lose the meaningful vote in Parliament. Whether she brings it back for a second vote seems to depend on how many votes she loses by.
Then it is the lap of the Gods.
There could be an Election, and The Tories would appoint a new leader to fight it. So would a new Tory leader start all over again?
Labour could win it and they would start all over again. Unless they included another referendum in their manifesto.
The Tories might trigger a leadership challenge. If Theresa May won, where would that leave us?
Whereas a new leader would want to renegotiate.
Whatever happens this is far from being over.
Another referendum may be the only way out.