Interesting spot, K3 plays it dreadfully by forcing you out, lucky that the K rivers. Its a tough spot if you know the player behind doesn't really get it, cos they often murder the hand and keep shorty in.
Yep I agree with that @HENDRIK62 - thanks for commenting. We make the fold expecting to be ahead of the lead almost always but do we almost have to fold and just hope his pair holds or improves or his draw gets there vs shorty...? But it also obviously crushes us when shorty does double after we invest so much of our stack here which begs the question is it better to just jam ourselves pre, potentially running into it or have a bigger stack potentially donk it off but get there vs us and still lose to shorty? Or just fold pre, hope someone wakes up or calls and gets there vs shorty and avoid being put in this situation?
About to post another spot from tonight I'm unsure how to play in a DYM - it's a profitable shove in this spot in a 5 handed sit and go or an MTT (slam dunk shove in the same spot with added bounty equity) but it once again highlights my lack of knowledge/understanding of the format... is there even a case here for making a weird min raise with the intention of folding to action behind (something you would obviously never do in the other formats, especially not in a bounty hunter, but is it the case that everyone is going to play so honestly behind and our range looks so strong when we min raise this spot in a DYM that we can actually consider min-raise-folding? :
As it happens that J9 hand above turned out to be the streak killer tonight as it ended a string of 5 binks in £1.10's (but that's not really pertinent to the question above and is a spot I would want to look at anyway regardless of any potential Streak Effect... is that a thing? I like it ).
So, tonight was fun but still (somewhat disconcertingly) bewildering in some spots... which is also kind of fun for me as well. I'm enjoying the challenge of being out of my comfort zone (and quite possibly out of my depth) in a new format that I have done zero 'studying' for and am just trying to wing it and learn on the fly... fun times
Tonight's binks and bricks then:
£1.10: ooooxx (streak of 4 tonight added to last night's one carried over making 5) £2.20: xox (nothing doing) £3.30: oxx (even less doing)
Any joys for any of you girls and boys? (I will keep asking that question in the hope of getting some sort of response )
Still not great, whichever way you slice it, but I definitely prefer it with the first night taken out... can we forget Monday? Everyone hates Monday's anyway:
After having a wee read here, decided to play a few DYMs (used to play them a lot) so I played 4 (I am having trouble getting motivated at the moment) but I'm still on so might book and try a few more tomorrow. I agree with Dragon, given stacks the J9 is not a shove, even if we avoid a reshove, shorty should call and we are flipping, which is something you should try and avoid any time you can in a this format.
Hi guys, just a quick one to say I'm delighted with the feedback and plan to post properly when I get home this evening. I feel it's important to point out that both of the unseen stacks have 3k each in this J9 spot... I'll explain my (very possibly flawed) in game thought process later on...
As it happens that J9 hand above turned out to be the streak killer tonight as it ended a string of 5 binks in £1.10's (but that's not really pertinent to the question above and is a spot I would want to look at anyway regardless of any potential Streak Effect... is that a thing? I like it ).
So, tonight was fun but still (somewhat disconcertingly) bewildering in some spots... which is also kind of fun for me as well. I'm enjoying the challenge of being out of my comfort zone (and quite possibly out of my depth) in a new format that I have done zero 'studying' for and am just trying to wing it and learn on the fly... fun times
Tonight's binks and bricks then:
£1.10: ooooxx (streak of 4 tonight added to last night's one carried over making 5) £2.20: xox (nothing doing) £3.30: oxx (even less doing)
Any joys for any of you girls and boys? (I will keep asking that question in the hope of getting some sort of response )
Bye for now.
My hand history reading is terrible as others would confirm but...
The bb is very short, yes? I think that this makes it a snap fold with far stronger holdings than J9.
If we do a hypothetical and say the bb has a similar stack to us then i think i’m still passing here with our stack. If i was say on approx 1500 then i might well shove it.
The min raise idea comes into the he knows that i know that he knows category. Good players have toyed with it a lot. When i’m playing well i’ll still be minning with all my range at this stage. I’m not loving it but will absolutely fold to the 3bet shove when i’m weak. We can still win with 1600. Obv we have to be totally balanced with this and also be minning all the hands that we we will snap call with otherwise we’re going to be massively exploited.
I never explain myself well. Hope some of that makes a bit of sense.
Not played all that many DYMs but have a lot of sat experience. Knowing your opponents thought level is key. In some spots our opponent should fold pretty much 100% range but if people are calling because they think they are ahead of our range then we need to adjust our ranges accordingly. Generally with sats and DYMs we don't want calls and winning uncontested money is amazing. This is why the tens hand is quite hard because it seems madness for our opponent to play their flush draw like they have. It seems like a standard call and check down/call and fold to jam spot as opponent should only be doing it with nutted hands pre or on the flop. I don't know whether we are better playing as we did or doing something different like jam or fold. Is an interesting spot that shouldn't be interesting but with opponents playing like they did it seems to be one where you can argue most options.
Thanks again for the comments/opinions/advice guys - great to get feedback and potentially some debate going.
@HENDRIK62 For sure we absolutely have to be calling off tighter in general in these don't we, often much tighter. What that should mean, though, is that we can and should be raising/shoving wider (?) not tighter (obviously dependent on position, stage of the DYM and chip distribution around the table and within reason - we're not going to be doing anything stupid as a middling stack 2nd in chips with 4 left for example). RFI/open shoving isn't opting into flips, the calling player/player with the decision is the one who decides whether you might be flipping or not when they call or not. We should have way more fold equity in so many spots in these (as compared to MTT's and bounty hunter's in particular) because people are not incentivised to call it off and simply have to call off much tighter and generally try to avoid flips like you say... seems logical but is it correct?
Going back to the J9s - we already know that the hand is a shove with this stack from the Hijack at a 5 handed table. Clearly with calling ranges being much tighter we won't perform so well on average with the J9s when called in this spot in a DYM than we would when called for this size shove in a Bounty Hunter but is it not a logical leap to assume it could be a better shove in this format and in this spot in particular because the stacks in the CO and BTN just can't find enough hands to be able (or more importantly willing) to make the call with... we just have to avoid the SB waking up with a hand that can call and even then he might make some way too tight laydowns. Isn't the fold equity huge in this specific spot vs the players behind given the distribution of stacks around the table? If we assume the shove gets through to the BB at a very high frequency here, isn't the upshot of winning vs the BB too big to pass up? J9s vs what is likely to be a 95-100% BB calling range for his remaining <2bb makes us an almost 56% favourite on average and even when we lose the other 44% we still get another chance to spin it up.
I'm all for folding/surviving/chip preservation in general (and I might be way off the mark with my assessment of this spot) but I can't help feeling that taking this spot gives us the best chance of surviving the important ladder from 4th to 3rd (currently 5 left and we are adrift in 4th) as it potentially puts us in a much healthier position with 4 left whereas even if we fold and the BB is knocked out (ideally by the biggest stack) we are in the BB next hand and find ourselves some way adrift in 4th anyway. Unless I'm way overestimating how much fold equity we actually have here (ignoring the BB, we expect him to call ) in which case the whole thing crumbles. I'm also taking on board the comment about stack sizes and maybe I need to adjust my understanding of just how short stacked you can/should be prepared to allow yourself to get in these things... bigger stack more fold equity, shorter stack less fold equity though... maybe I'm over estimating/over rating fold equity and it's more about preserving and letting other players make shoving/calling errors first...
I don't know. It's a flippin' minefield guys. Love it
@Allan23 Looks like your doing ok, how are you finding the games? Are you turbo only or mixing and matching? I'm not playing the turbo's because I think I would really need to study shove-fold and re-shove ranges thoroughly for these to be able to get anywhere close to breakeven
Comments
Who knew?!
Its a tough spot if you know the player behind doesn't really get it, cos they often murder the hand and keep shorty in.
So, tonight was fun but still (somewhat disconcertingly) bewildering in some spots... which is also kind of fun for me as well. I'm enjoying the challenge of being out of my comfort zone (and quite possibly out of my depth) in a new format that I have done zero 'studying' for and am just trying to wing it and learn on the fly... fun times
Tonight's binks and bricks then:
£1.10: ooooxx (streak of 4 tonight added to last night's one carried over making 5)
£2.20: xox (nothing doing)
£3.30: oxx (even less doing)
Any joys for any of you girls and boys? (I will keep asking that question in the hope of getting some sort of response
Bye for now.
£1.10: xoxxxoooxooooox
£2.20: xxxoxoooxooxxox
£3.30: xxxoxoooxxxoxx
I can feel a £3.30 streak coming on tomorrow... (my Sky Poker balance is desperate for it
£1.10: xxoooxooooox
£2.20: oxoooxooxxox
£3.30: oxoooxxxoxx
Survival, not winning.
But much better players like Timmy and Grumpy Jac might disagree.
3.30 - oox
5.50 - oxxooxooox
Tl;dr: Down money on rake
I agree with Dragon, given stacks the J9 is not a shove, even if we avoid a reshove, shorty should call and we are flipping, which is something you should try and avoid any time you can in a this format.
Thats my forum opinion , at the tables, who knows what I would do.
The bb is very short, yes?
I think that this makes it a snap fold with far stronger holdings than J9.
If we do a hypothetical and say the bb has a similar stack to us then i think i’m still passing here with our stack. If i was say on approx 1500 then i might well shove it.
The min raise idea comes into the he knows that i know that he knows category.
Good players have toyed with it a lot.
When i’m playing well i’ll still be minning with all my range at this stage. I’m not loving it but will absolutely fold to the 3bet shove when i’m weak. We can still win with 1600. Obv we have to be totally balanced with this and also be minning all the hands that we we will snap call with otherwise we’re going to be massively exploited.
I never explain myself well. Hope some of that makes a bit of sense.
@HENDRIK62
For sure we absolutely have to be calling off tighter in general in these don't we, often much tighter. What that should mean, though, is that we can and should be raising/shoving wider (?) not tighter (obviously dependent on position, stage of the DYM and chip distribution around the table and within reason - we're not going to be doing anything stupid as a middling stack 2nd in chips with 4 left for example).
RFI/open shoving isn't opting into flips, the calling player/player with the decision is the one who decides whether you might be flipping or not when they call or not. We should have way more fold equity in so many spots in these (as compared to MTT's and bounty hunter's in particular) because people are not incentivised to call it off and simply have to call off much tighter and generally try to avoid flips like you say... seems logical but is it correct?
Going back to the J9s - we already know that the hand is a shove with this stack from the Hijack at a 5 handed table. Clearly with calling ranges being much tighter we won't perform so well on average with the J9s when called in this spot in a DYM than we would when called for this size shove in a Bounty Hunter but is it not a logical leap to assume it could be a better shove in this format and in this spot in particular because the stacks in the CO and BTN just can't find enough hands to be able (or more importantly willing) to make the call with... we just have to avoid the SB waking up with a hand that can call and even then he might make some way too tight laydowns. Isn't the fold equity huge in this specific spot vs the players behind given the distribution of stacks around the table? If we assume the shove gets through to the BB at a very high frequency here, isn't the upshot of winning vs the BB too big to pass up? J9s vs what is likely to be a 95-100% BB calling range for his remaining <2bb makes us an almost 56% favourite on average and even when we lose the other 44% we still get another chance to spin it up.
I'm all for folding/surviving/chip preservation in general (and I might be way off the mark with my assessment of this spot) but I can't help feeling that taking this spot gives us the best chance of surviving the important ladder from 4th to 3rd (currently 5 left and we are adrift in 4th) as it potentially puts us in a much healthier position with 4 left whereas even if we fold and the BB is knocked out (ideally by the biggest stack) we are in the BB next hand and find ourselves some way adrift in 4th anyway. Unless I'm way overestimating how much fold equity we actually have here (ignoring the BB, we expect him to call
I don't know. It's a flippin' minefield guys. Love it
Any spots you'd like to share with us here Allan?