As for the pot odds is it his £5 bet into £2.50 so I have to call £5 to win £7.50 so I am getting 2/3 ?
Therefor have to be right say 66.6% of the time ? At the micros where players tend to be on the more passive side do you think that I am winning 66% of the time here at showdown ?
But if I am getting 2/3 so 66.6% on a call does that mean that I need at least 66.6% equity against his range to make it a profitable call ?
So to expand on this further when I asked earlier if @The_Don90 or @Donttelmum had ever made a call just because they where priced in what I meant is basically this:
We are getting laid 66.6% to call on the river, we have 70% equity against villains range but this time we feel very strongly because of how the hand was played that we are up against a full house.
Do we still call because of the math or do we go with our gut and fold ? All comments are appreciated here
Your maths is out Alan regarding the pod odds. You need to add the amount of your call into the total pot before then dividing that amount by the pot, so in this case you need to call £5 to win a total pot of £12.50 and therefore need to be good 40% of the time. When you're the one doing the betting and make it 2x pot, you're the one who needs to be good 66% of the time.
The chart below might be a useful reference for you. As a general rule of thumb, I tend to always call if I think I'm ahead of any parts of an opponents value range. At 4nl on Sky, I think enough of the overall population will be over-valuing worse Jx combos enough of the time for me to happily call it off here with AJ. If I consider my hand to be a pure bluff catcher, it's generally a lay down without specific reads.
Your maths is out Alan regarding the pod odds. You need to add the amount of your call into the total pot before then dividing that amount by the pot, so in this case you need to call £5 to win a total pot of £12.50 and therefore need to be good 40% of the time. When you're the one doing the betting and make it 2x pot, you're the one who needs to be good 66% of the time.
The chart below might be a useful reference for you. As a general rule of thumb, I tend to always call if I think I'm ahead of any parts of an opponents value range. At 4nl on Sky, I think enough of the overall population will be over-valuing worse Jx combos enough of the time for me to happily call it off here with AJ. If I consider my hand to be a pure bluff catcher, it's generally a lay down without specific reads.
Hi @Duesenberg great post mate and thanks for posting the chart also
The more I actually study poker and try and improve the more I realise that there is just so much to poker and no matter how much you already know there is always more to learn, which is what I think makes it such a great game.
I haven't seen many posts from you lately, have you been playing much ? If so how's it been going mate ?
Did you read what I said about being priced in earlier ? Am I right in thinking that if we are faced with a 1/2 pot bet on the river which we need to be good 25% of the time, so should we be calling our hand if we have 30% equity against his range ?
Do you have that Flopzilla ? And do you think that I will benefit from buying it ? What type of things do you use it for ?
I found the same - the more I learned about poker, the more I realised I didn't know
I'm familiar with Flopzilla but it's not something I've ever used so let us know how you find it.
The notion of being 'priced in' is something I think often ends up getting used by weak players to justify poor calls. The only clear examples are when a call closes the action and the equity of a draw surpasses the odds you are being laid - eg an opponent shoves their remaining stack on the flop which is 75% of the pot and you call (correctly) with the nut flush draw, even though you're almost certain you're behind at this point.
Going with your gut despite what the maths/theory would suggest is something that I do sparingly and only with very good reasons. I guess in these instances it's not really my gut but rather an exploitative adjustment I'm making vs a specific opponent or an overall population read. I think one needs to be careful with following ones gut too frequently as you can soon end up with theoretically unsound plays becoming your default lines because all too often you aren't 'feeling it'. It's ok to get stacked sometimes and you need to be ready to accept that as part of the game. Just because you make a big call but are wrong, or you bluff and get hero called, doesn't mean those plays are bad when put in the long term context of your game. The odd light call or big bluff on your part will also help drive action your way on later hands too, so there is added value from a meta game perspective.
I've had a lazy month at the tables so far and probably need to pull my finger out a little
Flicking through the lobby this morning and came across a decent 50NL game so thought I would jump in and see how it went ? (not the best bankroll choice I know)
The following hand I have posted is against a recreational player. I had previous to this hand seen villain get kind of sticky with top pair and make a few "interesting" plays.
OK wouldn't mind going through this hand street by street if anyone is interested:
Pre - I think calling on the button with 33 is pretty standard here. We have a min open by a rec then a min 3-bet by another rec. There is just close to £4 in the pot and I have to call £2 so I am getting 3-1 on the call is the correct ? I just thought that given the implied odds we where getting it was worth a call.
When it come to putting the villain who 3bet pre on a range it was quite difficult as he had played quite a few questionable opening hands prior to this hand. I was thinking somewhere along the lines of any pocket pair 22-AA or some kind of broadway whether it be suited or not.
Flop - Villain continues for 1/2 pot and I 3x his bet. At this point I think there is a strong chance villain could have an overpair to the board TT-AA (he may of wanted to 3bet small so he did not lose any customers which is sometimes how recreational players think) That is what I am thinking at the time anyway.
Turn - The turn brings another spade completing the flush daw which I am not overly happy about but not too concerned about given all of the other possible hands villain could have. Pot is £27, villain checks and I elect to fire a half pot bet. Going to do a multi choice question here and would like people to post their answer and why please:
Should hero: 1) Check the turn 2) Bet the turn and what percentage of the pot
When I bet half pot that brings the pot to £40 (80bb) villain has 70bb behind and I have 50bb behind. Villain insta check-raise shoves which I am not happy at all about but am sure he could be doing this with worse hands than 2nd bottom set. Pot is then £75 and I have £25 left so does that mean I add my £25 to the £75 making £100 to my £25 so am I getting 4-1.
Because of the money already in the pot do I have to call if I think I am winning this at least 1 out of 5 times or 1 out of 4 times ? (I struggle a little with all this pot odds business) 4-1 as a percentage would be 25% right ? So surely I would have to win 1 time out of the 4 ? (confusing myself already)
Should hero: 1) Snap call 2) Snap fold
In my opinion villain "may" also take this line with overpairs, overpairs and a flush draw, flushes, sets so wasn't quite sure what to do. Wasn't really worried about the flush untill he raise shoved ? I read something posted by @FeelGroggy a few weeks ago where he said that our aim in poker is to make as much money as we can with our range vs villains range and its not to minimise the losses with our range vs villains range and for that reason I think we should always be betting that turn (maybe a little bigger also 60-75% pot)
So sometimes we are going to run into the top of villains range and get stacked but more often that not we are going to stack villain and profit in the long run. Really interested to hear peoples thoughts here and also what their line would of been against a competent reg instead of a recreational player (not saying this recreational player is a bad one btw, just stating that he is not a reg)
I didn't bet the turn as wanted my hand to look weaker than it was and also if villain had KQ and hit the straight he was definitely going to raise my turn bet so I didn't want blowing of the hand.
When the Ace come filling me up I thought I had to go for value as there are so many worse hands that will have a hard time folding there.
Thoughts on how I played the hand please ? How would anyone of played it differently ?
Looking back this is the only hand I really beat is 76 but this is probably in villains blind calling range. I don't think villain ever takes this line with a strong Jack.
86s is a close spot on the river. You talk about only beating 76 but you are of course always beating their bluffs too! The turned flush draw gives them a lot of credible bluffs with reasonable hands they may be floating the flop with - QcTc, Tc9c, KcQc etc, almost all of which will likely be firing the river too. Not having a club in your hand helps in this regard too. Also, I'd rather be calling here with 86 than something like T6 as you're blocking 87 for the nut straight (although conversely, holding an 8 reduces some of their likely turn bluff combos too). From an MDF perspective you probably need to be calling but, in reality, I don't think you're being particularly exploited in these games if you're over-folding these spots as people are generally not bluffing anywhere near as frequently as they should.
AJ hand. I'd prefer another cbet on the turn. Firstly you want to protect your bluffing range by making sure you balance in enough clear cut value barrels (especially on a board which is great for your range but one where you'll also have a lot of semi-bluffs too). Secondly, there are some rivers on which it's going to be tough for you to bet for value (K or Q) so I think you want to be locking up as many streets of value whilst you can with top 2. As played, I think you need to check river to allow villain to continue with all their bluffs given you now block so many of their possible value hands. You make it far easier for them not to make a mistake by suddenly leading here with a rather face-up looking Ax combo.
KJo. I'm not a fan of 3betting this here. You'll have plenty of better 3bet bluff options in this spot and it doesn't play that great post flop with some possible reverse implied odds implications on K and J high boards. I'd be on board with KJs though for both it's greater playability and it's extra equity. I'm calling river here too but hating life whilst doing so!
KK. If you always get all the money in preflop with KK at these stack depths or less, you're never making a mistake and will win more money than you lose in the long run. As played, don't 4bet it if you're intending to fold to additional pressure preflop - just call the 3bet and play some post flop poker. Also, at these stack depths and being oop, you need to make your 4bet sizing larger (more like £3.60 in this instance). By making a virtual min-raise here you'll have zero fold equity vs the in position players entire 3bet range (including their weakest bluffs) as they simply have too much equity to continue and they'll be over-realising too with the benefit of position and deep stacks in play.
How's the roll looking? I'm assuming you've been taking some BRM liberties here!
There is just close to £4 in the pot and I have to call £2 so I am getting 3-1 on the call is the correct ?
If the hand were to end at this spot and the best hand got paid your getting (almost) 1.9 to 1
The min raiser now gets odds of 5.75 to 1 for what its worth.
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
feefee18
Small blind
£0.25
£0.25
£55.04
jackl
Big blind
£0.50
£0.75
£71.40
snowman69
Sit out
Your hole cards
3
3
leemarti17
Raise
£1.00
£1.75
£4.39
Eryr
Raise
£2.00
£3.75
£45.45
ALAN_18
Call
£2.00
£5.75
I thought if there is £4 in the pot and I have to call £2 then you add my £2 to the £4 already in the pot making £6, so essentially I am staking £2 to win £6 is that not 3-1 ?
Comments
But with the alone fact that we have 67% equity against there range we have to call I guess.
Therefor have to be right say 66.6% of the time ? At the micros where players tend to be on the more passive side do you think that I am winning 66% of the time here at showdown ?
But if I am getting 2/3 so 66.6% on a call does that mean that I need at least 66.6% equity against his range to make it a profitable call ?
So to expand on this further when I asked earlier if @The_Don90 or @Donttelmum had ever made a call just because they where priced in what I meant is basically this:
We are getting laid 66.6% to call on the river, we have 70% equity against villains range but this time we feel very strongly because of how the hand was played that we are up against a full house.
Do we still call because of the math or do we go with our gut and fold ? All comments are appreciated here
The chart below might be a useful reference for you. As a general rule of thumb, I tend to always call if I think I'm ahead of any parts of an opponents value range. At 4nl on Sky, I think enough of the overall population will be over-valuing worse Jx combos enough of the time for me to happily call it off here with AJ. If I consider my hand to be a pure bluff catcher, it's generally a lay down without specific reads.
The more I actually study poker and try and improve the more I realise that there is just so much to poker and no matter how much you already know there is always more to learn, which is what I think makes it such a great game.
I haven't seen many posts from you lately, have you been playing much ? If so how's it been going mate ?
Did you read what I said about being priced in earlier ? Am I right in thinking that if we are faced with a 1/2 pot bet on the river which we need to be good 25% of the time, so should we be calling our hand if we have 30% equity against his range ?
Do you have that Flopzilla ? And do you think that I will benefit from buying it ? What type of things do you use it for ?
Nice to hear from you anyway mate
I'm familiar with Flopzilla but it's not something I've ever used so let us know how you find it.
The notion of being 'priced in' is something I think often ends up getting used by weak players to justify poor calls. The only clear examples are when a call closes the action and the equity of a draw surpasses the odds you are being laid - eg an opponent shoves their remaining stack on the flop which is 75% of the pot and you call (correctly) with the nut flush draw, even though you're almost certain you're behind at this point.
Going with your gut despite what the maths/theory would suggest is something that I do sparingly and only with very good reasons. I guess in these instances it's not really my gut but rather an exploitative adjustment I'm making vs a specific opponent or an overall population read. I think one needs to be careful with following ones gut too frequently as you can soon end up with theoretically unsound plays becoming your default lines because all too often you aren't 'feeling it'. It's ok to get stacked sometimes and you need to be ready to accept that as part of the game. Just because you make a big call but are wrong, or you bluff and get hero called, doesn't mean those plays are bad when put in the long term context of your game. The odd light call or big bluff on your part will also help drive action your way on later hands too, so there is added value from a meta game perspective.
I've had a lazy month at the tables so far and probably need to pull my finger out a little
Good luck
That pretty much sums up what I was thinking
The following hand I have posted is against a recreational player. I had previous to this hand seen villain get kind of sticky with top pair and make a few "interesting" plays.
Pre - I think calling on the button with 33 is pretty standard here. We have a min open by a rec then a min 3-bet by another rec. There is just close to £4 in the pot and I have to call £2 so I am getting 3-1 on the call is the correct ? I just thought that given the implied odds we where getting it was worth a call.
When it come to putting the villain who 3bet pre on a range it was quite difficult as he had played quite a few questionable opening hands prior to this hand. I was thinking somewhere along the lines of any pocket pair 22-AA or some kind of broadway whether it be suited or not.
Flop - Villain continues for 1/2 pot and I 3x his bet. At this point I think there is a strong chance villain could have an overpair to the board TT-AA (he may of wanted to 3bet small so he did not lose any customers which is sometimes how recreational players think) That is what I am thinking at the time anyway.
Turn - The turn brings another spade completing the flush daw which I am not overly happy about but not too concerned about given all of the other possible hands villain could have. Pot is £27, villain checks and I elect to fire a half pot bet. Going to do a multi choice question here and would like people to post their answer and why please:
Should hero: 1) Check the turn 2) Bet the turn and what percentage of the pot
When I bet half pot that brings the pot to £40 (80bb) villain has 70bb behind and I have 50bb behind. Villain insta check-raise shoves which I am not happy at all about but am sure he could be doing this with worse hands than 2nd bottom set. Pot is then £75 and I have £25 left so does that mean I add my £25 to the £75 making £100 to my £25 so am I getting 4-1.
Because of the money already in the pot do I have to call if I think I am winning this at least 1 out of 5 times or 1 out of 4 times ? (I struggle a little with all this pot odds business) 4-1 as a percentage would be 25% right ? So surely I would have to win 1 time out of the 4 ? (confusing myself already)
Should hero: 1) Snap call 2) Snap fold
In my opinion villain "may" also take this line with overpairs, overpairs and a flush draw, flushes, sets so wasn't quite sure what to do. Wasn't really worried about the flush untill he raise shoved ? I read something posted by @FeelGroggy a few weeks ago where he said that our aim in poker is to make as much money as we can with our range vs villains range and its not to minimise the losses with our range vs villains range and for that reason I think we should always be betting that turn (maybe a little bigger also 60-75% pot)
So sometimes we are going to run into the top of villains range and get stacked but more often that not we are going to stack villain and profit in the long run. Really interested to hear peoples thoughts here and also what their line would of been against a competent reg instead of a recreational player (not saying this recreational player is a bad one btw, just stating that he is not a reg)
When the Ace come filling me up I thought I had to go for value as there are so many worse hands that will have a hard time folding there.
Thoughts on how I played the hand please ? How would anyone of played it differently ?
There is just close to £4 in the pot and I have to call £2 so I am getting 3-1 on the call is the correct ?
If the hand were to end at this spot and the best hand got paid your getting (almost) 1.9 to 1
The min raiser now gets odds of 5.75 to 1 for what its worth.
AJ hand. I'd prefer another cbet on the turn. Firstly you want to protect your bluffing range by making sure you balance in enough clear cut value barrels (especially on a board which is great for your range but one where you'll also have a lot of semi-bluffs too). Secondly, there are some rivers on which it's going to be tough for you to bet for value (K or Q) so I think you want to be locking up as many streets of value whilst you can with top 2. As played, I think you need to check river to allow villain to continue with all their bluffs given you now block so many of their possible value hands. You make it far easier for them not to make a mistake by suddenly leading here with a rather face-up looking Ax combo.
KJo. I'm not a fan of 3betting this here. You'll have plenty of better 3bet bluff options in this spot and it doesn't play that great post flop with some possible reverse implied odds implications on K and J high boards. I'd be on board with KJs though for both it's greater playability and it's extra equity. I'm calling river here too but hating life whilst doing so!
KK. If you always get all the money in preflop with KK at these stack depths or less, you're never making a mistake and will win more money than you lose in the long run. As played, don't 4bet it if you're intending to fold to additional pressure preflop - just call the 3bet and play some post flop poker. Also, at these stack depths and being oop, you need to make your 4bet sizing larger (more like £3.60 in this instance). By making a virtual min-raise here you'll have zero fold equity vs the in position players entire 3bet range (including their weakest bluffs) as they simply have too much equity to continue and they'll be over-realising too with the benefit of position and deep stacks in play.
How's the roll looking? I'm assuming you've been taking some BRM liberties here!
Good luck
These pot odds confuse the f%*k out of me