@waller02 The KK hand villain is 200bb deep and I am 175bb deep. I had played a fair bit with villain and had not even seen him 4-bet never mind 5-bet and the sizing was something like 4x which made me think is it ever anything apart from AA ?
100bb deep I am shoving/calling all day long and am happy about it, if I run into Aces then so be it. I just couldn't see villain 5-betting AK, QQ here this deep knowing there is a good chance I could have AA or KK.
I also do not think that villain has go it in him to bluff in this spot (not saying he/she is bad player, just doesn't seem to make many if any preflop moves)
If it was a HU match and not a 6-max game then I am 6-bet shoving KK here even 200bb deep and am happy about it. HU players seem to stack of much more lightly.
I personally feel that the fold was the correct play with me being 175bb deep and villain covering me (100bb deep, different story.
@Duesenberg reading over your comments again mate and really appreciate you going over every spot for me.
One of my leaks is that in game I end up making plays that I am unsure why I am making them if you know what I mean ?
Like I will check the turn but in my head I don't know whether I am checking for pot control, checking to induce or whatever ? Sometimes things work out, sometimes they don't, but even when they do work out its as if I just done whatever came into my head at the time and I didn't have a clear cut plan of how I would like the hand to play out from before the flop.
I really want to improve as a player so by posting these hands and getting other peoples perspective is a massive help, so cant thank you guys enough
You talk poker strategy so well and your hand analysis is second to none. Everything you say seems to make perfect sense and I am just wondering if in game is most of this stuff just second nature to you now you have been in these spots a load of times ? How long have you been playing poker and is there any reason that you do not play any higher than you already do ?
Quick question before I go play these happy hours, what 4-bet sizes do you normally use ? 2.5x in position and 3x out of position ? As for the KK hand when I 4-bet I didn't take into consideration I was OOP and just went for my standard 2.5x raise which should of been £3 not sure why I made it £2.50. Now I mention it I think I might have always been making it £2.50 just by accident and not paying attention to the simplest of math
Lastly I have around 25 buy-ins for 10NL and yes have been taking some bad shots lately at 20/30/50NL when I have seen games that are really soft knowing that I can always grind it back up at 4NL if I need to. I am playing only 10NL tables for the time being and am tracking my hours and earnings so that after say 100 hours 50k hands I can work out a rough approximate winrate bb/100 just to see where I am at and whether I can consistently beat this stake.
I know 50k is not a massive sample but I think that if I am beating it for say 3-4bb/100 over 50k hands (100 hours) then there is a high chance that I am a winning player at said stake and not just on a massive heater. You agree ?
Nice playing with you this morning anyway, GL at the tables (not that you need it)
I was just going off this comment from @Duesenberg
Your maths is out Alan regarding the pod odds. You need to add the amount of your call into the total pot before then dividing that amount by the pot, so in this case you need to call £5 to win a total pot of £12.50 and therefore need to be good 40% of the time. When you're the one doing the betting and make it 2x pot, you're the one who needs to be good 66% of the time.
Here I had to call £5 in to a pot that was already £7.50 making it that I had to stake £5 to win a total of £12.50 so what pot odds am I getting here ?
Morning Alan. Just catching up on your thread. Duesenberg does seem to make a lot of sense and I have been thinking he is just on a two year heater😉. Regarding your schedule, it’s great that you are studying but there really is no substitute for playing it is the fastest way to learn at the stakes we play in my opinion. Advanced strategies are way over the head of most of us at low stakes and you just need to be thinking one level above your opponent. Two levels and your going to be missing value. Playing is the only way you are going to learn your opponents tendencies and exploit them. When I started out and sets kept stacking me I would google things like ‘how do I know when my over pair is beat’ and I would find an answer ‘it depends’ and would be frustrated as I thought that was no answer at all and just wanted some kind of rule to follow. However this is certainly true,there are opponents I would never lay an over pair down to and others it’s an insta fold and I don’t think twice. Essentially you are a winning player and cash is all about playing and grinding out your hourly rate.
Morning Alan. Just catching up on your thread. Duesenberg does seem to make a lot of sense and I have been thinking he is just on a two year heater😉. Regarding your schedule, it’s great that you are studying but there really is no substitute for playing it is the fastest way to learn at the stakes we play in my opinion. Advanced strategies are way over the head of most of us at low stakes and you just need to be thinking one level above your opponent. Two levels and your going to be missing value. Playing is the only way you are going to learn your opponents tendencies and exploit them. When I started out and sets kept stacking me I would google things like ‘how do I know when my over pair is beat’ and I would find an answer ‘it depends’ and would be frustrated as I thought that was no answer at all and just wanted some kind of rule to follow. However this is certainly true,there are opponents I would never lay an over pair down to and others it’s an insta fold and I don’t think twice. Essentially you are a winning player and cash is all about playing and grinding out your hourly rate.
Hi @H3nry appreciate you popping in mate. That's music to my ears because I much prefer to learn by playing as some of these advanced startegies make my head fall off lol However if I do want to keep moving up stakes they are going to have to be learnt at some point.
I think my biggest problem when moving up from 4NL to 10NL was that at 4NL I was pretty much able to book a win in 90% of my sessions and in my opinion I was one of the best players at that stake.
Now at 10NL when I am not tilting I still feel I have an edge against majority of the player pool but I am no longer running over everyone like I used to at 4NL and there are maybe at least another 10 regs as good as if not better than myself.
I have not played lots of 10NL to be honest so I guess you are right in saying that I need more experience at that stake to make it my stake of choice so to speak. Because I am close to hitting priority this month I have been playing 7-8 tables of 10NL which I think is affecting my winrate (I have played 20 hours since Friday morn and am up only £20)
I am just going to get this month out of the way then put a solid month in June all at 10NL playing no more than 6 tables when they are full or 5 short handed. Another of my leaks is letting my ego get in the way and sitting playing a reg HU when the tables break and we are the only two left and neither of us wanting to sit out on each other, however that is going to stop.
Going to send you a PM now mate anyway, thanks for your comments and hope you stick around as it's nice to have some one who plays at the same stakes commenting.
A chorlton win on skybet is 2/1, If you stick a quid on....
Hopefully this picture clears it up.
Hi mate, yes I understand that but I am getting conflicting views here I think which is sending my head into overload trying to figure it out haha Think I need to watch a few youtube videos to get my thick head around it as I know I will be missing something.
A chorlton win on skybet is 2/1, If you stick a quid on....
Hopefully this picture clears it up.
Hi mate, yes I understand that but I am getting conflicting views here I think which is sending my head into overload trying to figure it out haha Think I need to watch a few youtube videos to get my thick head around it as I know I will be missing something.
Hi @ALAN_18, the two examples you have shown (£2 & £5) equate to odds of £2= 15/8, where you are calling £2 to win £3.75 & £5= 6/4, where you are calling £5 to win £7.50. Hope this clears it up for you
A chorlton win on skybet is 2/1, If you stick a quid on....
Hopefully this picture clears it up.
Hi mate, yes I understand that but I am getting conflicting views here I think which is sending my head into overload trying to figure it out haha Think I need to watch a few youtube videos to get my thick head around it as I know I will be missing something.
Hi @ALAN_18, the two examples you have shown (£2 & £5) equate to odds of £2= 15/8, where you are calling £2 to win £3.75 & £5= 6/4, where you are calling £5 to win £7.50. Hope this clears it up for you
GL at the tables
When you are calling £5 to win £7.50 do you not add your £5 to the £7.50 though so you are staking £5 to win £12.50 so getting 6/4 ?
A chorlton win on skybet is 2/1, If you stick a quid on....
Hopefully this picture clears it up.
Hi mate, yes I understand that but I am getting conflicting views here I think which is sending my head into overload trying to figure it out haha Think I need to watch a few youtube videos to get my thick head around it as I know I will be missing something.
Hi @ALAN_18, the two examples you have shown (£2 & £5) equate to odds of £2= 15/8, where you are calling £2 to win £3.75 & £5= 6/4, where you are calling £5 to win £7.50. Hope this clears it up for you
GL at the tables
When you are calling £5 to win £7.50 do you not add your £5 to the £7.50 though so you are staking £5 to win £12.50 so getting 6/4 ?
Yes it is 6/4 on your £5 call as you would win £7.50 (if you won the hand obv) plus your £5 back
I've been playing online on and off since way back in 2003 but I only started taking it seriously (as in studying the game) in around 2013/14. I talk a far better game than I manage to play in real time but I've also got several million hands under my belt now so many spots are familiar to me and I have default lines ingrained in my psyche.
Once I'd reached a point where I was beating games up to 50nl I kinda took the easy option of staying in my comfort zone and grinding out some half decent and relatively pain free pocket money (I'm hardly the poster boy for ambition haha!). The more time passed the harder the game continued to get, which made the notion of pushing forward towards higher stakes an increasingly intimidating and unappealing prospect. I'll never say never though and maybe one day I'll lock myself in a basement for 6 months with nothing but Piosolver for company before coming out to give LLinusLLove a run for his money
Regarding 4bet sizings, I usually tend to go anywhere from 2.2-2.8x in position and 2.5-3.2x when out of position. One of the biggest deciding factors will be the effective stack sizes and the larger they are, the bigger the sizing I'll opt for. The deeper a game plays, the bigger the implied odds are for more speculative holdings and it's important to use 4bet sizes that will generate fold equity for the times you're 4bet bluffing.
I don't think you should get too caught up in trying to reach a certain number of hands played or ascertaining your bb/100 at 10nl. The rake is rather crippling and I recommend you just focus on doing whatever you think is best to build your roll enough for a more concerted shot at 20nl where the rake drops significantly. 100k is generally considered the point at which you can start to get a more realistic view of what your win rate may be but, by the time you've played those hands, you will likely be a better player than at the start of that sample so your overall win rate figure will probably always be an inaccurate reflection of the current state of your game.
Oh, @H3nry is right by the way - I'm actually just on a 2 year heater. I'm sure it's merely a coincidence that the heater began around the same time as I started playing him
@Duesenberg@mumsie Will reply in a bit thanks for your replies, just wanted to post this hand before the vegas stack builder starts in 5 mins, GL if you guys are in it
Am I ever check raising flop here to fold to a 3-bet ? Also please look past the 3-bet sizing as I know it should of been £1.60 4x his open as I am out of position but I was timing out the hand and just hit the pot button to save time.
Against this range we have 40% equity - JJ+, AKs, ATs, KJs-KTs, QTs+, JTs, AKo, ATo. Also want to note villain is one of the better regs at 20/30NL and does not usually play this low, he is more than capable of making a move here however I do think a flop 3-bet in 3-bet pot looks so strong.
WHAT IS VILLAIN REPPING HERE AND CAN WE CALL THIS OFF WITH AK HIGH ???
Notes on player - 10/20/30NL reg, very agrro, bluffs a lot of draws, more than capable of triple barrel bluffs, 3-bet/squeezes a lot
Villain will know that I am also quite agrro as we have played together before and that I will be usually firing 3 barrels on this runout with an overpair so why check raise jam the turn ?
The only reason I could think of is that he wants me to fold as he knows the money is probably all going in before showdown if he goes into check call mode so he doesn't have to check raise as it folds out all of my bluffs in this spot. If he was worried about loosing value with a full house then he could check call the turn then lead river ?
Will wait till I hear a few replies then I will post results of this hand.
Comments
100bb deep I am shoving/calling all day long and am happy about it, if I run into Aces then so be it. I just couldn't see villain 5-betting AK, QQ here this deep knowing there is a good chance I could have AA or KK.
I also do not think that villain has go it in him to bluff in this spot (not saying he/she is bad player, just doesn't seem to make many if any preflop moves)
If it was a HU match and not a 6-max game then I am 6-bet shoving KK here even 200bb deep and am happy about it. HU players seem to stack of much more lightly.
I personally feel that the fold was the correct play with me being 175bb deep and villain covering me (100bb deep, different story.
I will reply in a few hours after I have played the 9-11pm happy hours. Need the points as I am close to making priority this month.
One of my leaks is that in game I end up making plays that I am unsure why I am making them if you know what I mean ?
Like I will check the turn but in my head I don't know whether I am checking for pot control, checking to induce or whatever ? Sometimes things work out, sometimes they don't, but even when they do work out its as if I just done whatever came into my head at the time and I didn't have a clear cut plan of how I would like the hand to play out from before the flop.
I really want to improve as a player so by posting these hands and getting other peoples perspective is a massive help, so cant thank you guys enough
You talk poker strategy so well and your hand analysis is second to none. Everything you say seems to make perfect sense and I am just wondering if in game is most of this stuff just second nature to you now you have been in these spots a load of times ? How long have you been playing poker and is there any reason that you do not play any higher than you already do ?
Quick question before I go play these happy hours, what 4-bet sizes do you normally use ? 2.5x in position and 3x out of position ? As for the KK hand when I 4-bet I didn't take into consideration I was OOP and just went for my standard 2.5x raise which should of been £3 not sure why I made it £2.50. Now I mention it I think I might have always been making it £2.50 just by accident and not paying attention to the simplest of math
Lastly I have around 25 buy-ins for 10NL and yes have been taking some bad shots lately at 20/30/50NL when I have seen games that are really soft knowing that I can always grind it back up at 4NL if I need to. I am playing only 10NL tables for the time being and am tracking my hours and earnings so that after say 100 hours 50k hands I can work out a rough approximate winrate bb/100 just to see where I am at and whether I can consistently beat this stake.
I know 50k is not a massive sample but I think that if I am beating it for say 3-4bb/100 over 50k hands (100 hours) then there is a high chance that I am a winning player at said stake and not just on a massive heater. You agree ?
Nice playing with you this morning anyway, GL at the tables (not that you need it)
A chorlton win on skybet is 2/1, If you stick a quid on....
Hopefully this picture clears it up.
I was just going off this comment from @Duesenberg
Your maths is out Alan regarding the pod odds. You need to add the amount of your call into the total pot before then dividing that amount by the pot, so in this case you need to call £5 to win a total pot of £12.50 and therefore need to be good 40% of the time. When you're the one doing the betting and make it 2x pot, you're the one who needs to be good 66% of the time.
Here I had to call £5 in to a pot that was already £7.50 making it that I had to stake £5 to win a total of £12.50 so what pot odds am I getting here ?
Cheers Mumsie
Just catching up on your thread.
Duesenberg does seem to make a lot of sense and I have been thinking he is just on a two year heater😉.
Regarding your schedule, it’s great that you are studying but there really is no substitute for playing it is the fastest way to learn at the stakes we play in my opinion. Advanced strategies are way over the head of most of us at low stakes and you just need to be thinking one level above your opponent. Two levels and your going to be missing value. Playing is the only way you are going to learn your opponents tendencies and exploit them.
When I started out and sets kept stacking me I would google things like ‘how do I know when my over pair is beat’ and I would find an answer ‘it depends’ and would be frustrated as I thought that was no answer at all and just wanted some kind of rule to follow. However this is certainly true,there are opponents I would never lay an over pair down to and others it’s an insta fold and I don’t think twice.
Essentially you are a winning player and cash is all about playing and grinding out your hourly rate.
I think my biggest problem when moving up from 4NL to 10NL was that at 4NL I was pretty much able to book a win in 90% of my sessions and in my opinion I was one of the best players at that stake.
Now at 10NL when I am not tilting I still feel I have an edge against majority of the player pool but I am no longer running over everyone like I used to at 4NL and there are maybe at least another 10 regs as good as if not better than myself.
I have not played lots of 10NL to be honest so I guess you are right in saying that I need more experience at that stake to make it my stake of choice so to speak. Because I am close to hitting priority this month I have been playing 7-8 tables of 10NL which I think is affecting my winrate (I have played 20 hours since Friday morn and am up only £20)
I am just going to get this month out of the way then put a solid month in June all at 10NL playing no more than 6 tables when they are full or 5 short handed. Another of my leaks is letting my ego get in the way and sitting playing a reg HU when the tables break and we are the only two left and neither of us wanting to sit out on each other, however that is going to stop.
Going to send you a PM now mate anyway, thanks for your comments and hope you stick around as it's nice to have some one who plays at the same stakes commenting.
GL at the tables
Hope this clears it up for you
GL at the tables
I've been playing online on and off since way back in 2003 but I only started taking it seriously (as in studying the game) in around 2013/14. I talk a far better game than I manage to play in real time but I've also got several million hands under my belt now so many spots are familiar to me and I have default lines ingrained in my psyche.
Once I'd reached a point where I was beating games up to 50nl I kinda took the easy option of staying in my comfort zone and grinding out some half decent and relatively pain free pocket money (I'm hardly the poster boy for ambition haha!). The more time passed the harder the game continued to get, which made the notion of pushing forward towards higher stakes an increasingly intimidating and unappealing prospect. I'll never say never though and maybe one day I'll lock myself in a basement for 6 months with nothing but Piosolver for company before coming out to give LLinusLLove a run for his money
Regarding 4bet sizings, I usually tend to go anywhere from 2.2-2.8x in position and 2.5-3.2x when out of position. One of the biggest deciding factors will be the effective stack sizes and the larger they are, the bigger the sizing I'll opt for. The deeper a game plays, the bigger the implied odds are for more speculative holdings and it's important to use 4bet sizes that will generate fold equity for the times you're 4bet bluffing.
I don't think you should get too caught up in trying to reach a certain number of hands played or ascertaining your bb/100 at 10nl. The rake is rather crippling and I recommend you just focus on doing whatever you think is best to build your roll enough for a more concerted shot at 20nl where the rake drops significantly. 100k is generally considered the point at which you can start to get a more realistic view of what your win rate may be but, by the time you've played those hands, you will likely be a better player than at the start of that sample so your overall win rate figure will probably always be an inaccurate reflection of the current state of your game.
Oh, @H3nry is right by the way - I'm actually just on a 2 year heater. I'm sure it's merely a coincidence that the heater began around the same time as I started playing him
Take a look at this video and take the quiz.
https://www.splitsuit.com/pot-odds-video-quiz
Against this range we have 40% equity - JJ+, AKs, ATs, KJs-KTs, QTs+, JTs, AKo, ATo. Also want to note villain is one of the better regs at 20/30NL and does not usually play this low, he is more than capable of making a move here however I do think a flop 3-bet in 3-bet pot looks so strong.
Notes on player - 10/20/30NL reg, very agrro, bluffs a lot of draws, more than capable of triple barrel bluffs, 3-bet/squeezes a lot
Villain will know that I am also quite agrro as we have played together before and that I will be usually firing 3 barrels on this runout with an overpair so why check raise jam the turn ?
The only reason I could think of is that he wants me to fold as he knows the money is probably all going in before showdown if he goes into check call mode so he doesn't have to check raise as it folds out all of my bluffs in this spot. If he was worried about loosing value with a full house then he could check call the turn then lead river ?
Will wait till I hear a few replies then I will post results of this hand.