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Racism.

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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862
    lucy4 said:

    Tikay10 said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Tikay10 said:


    "The simple answer to this problem would be to only employ Police Officers that are able to correctly enter a car registration number."

    Seems a little harsh. The fella keyed in a wrong digit.

    The fact that the incorrect registration gave the owners address in North Yorkshire may have been a clue.

    Police Officers are expected to deal with some very difficult situations, but what could be easier than reading off, or entering into a computer the registration of a car that you are following, while looking at the number plate.

    If you are unable to do this correctly, what could you be trusted to do?

    Also I think that The Police are on occasion the architects of their own downfall.

    On the one hand they made the stop because they were investigating gang and knife crime.

    On the other hand they made the stop because they came up with the car owners address in North Yorkshire.

    What is the likelihood of someone living in North Yorkshire being involved with a London gang?
    Keying in a registration number on a little keyboard whilst travelling in a car bumping along may well result in a keying error.

    And if it comes up with a car registered in Yorkshire driving around in Hackney, yes, that's could well be suspicious.

    There is systematic racism in the Met Police, no denying that, but Ms Butler seems to be making a meal of this when there is no need. She could not wait to tweet "I've been stopped by the police, I've filmed it all, full report coming" all seems a bit eager for confrontation to me.


    This point exactly,if people whether they be black,white,yellow,brown,gay,straight,male,female,young,old etc were to just listen,cooperate & engage with the police when stopped for any reason,instead of the first reaction/response being to whip their phones out and start trying to be become social media's next Quentin Tarantino,then most of the resulting events would never occur.

    If this was an event, then the recording of it didnt contribute to it.
    I think that everyone is entitled to ask why they have been stopped.
    The stats clearly show that you are more likely to be stopped if you are black.
    Do all Police Forces profile cars that are registered out of the area?
    If so, why?
    Dawn Butler was clearly confused by this targeting, as would most people.
    I am not sure if the recording was done by a dash cam, or a phone.
    The fact that many of these incidents are recorded should make The Police more careful in the way they deal with people
    In the old days they could probably get away with denying that they have said, or done something, but not any more.



    If you've done nothing wrong and got nothing to hide then engage with their enquiries,respond in a calm and peaceful manner and you'll soon be on your way.


    Two other stops have been covered on this thread.
    I thought that Dawn Butler behaved the best of them.
    She calmly asked them what they were up to.
    I dont think their story made sense.




    If they still persist with false/wrong/racist etc allegations,let them carry on oblige with their requests and then if you're still certain that you have been wronged,have your day in court,where you can then go full on Tarantino with the real media watching.

    Yes, I am certain The Police would admit to being racist in court.

    The Police have got a hard enough job to do in these times we're living in,without their every move/decision being subjected to trial by Facebook by those seeking instant fame and social media attention to boost their own egos.
    If you consider the number of tourists that visit London, it is a wonder The Met has time for anything, other than stopping cars that are registered outside the area.
  • VespaPXVespaPX Member Posts: 12,404
    HAYSIE said:

    Tikay10 said:


    "The simple answer to this problem would be to only employ Police Officers that are able to correctly enter a car registration number."

    Seems a little harsh. The fella keyed in a wrong digit.

    The fact that the incorrect registration gave the owners address in North Yorkshire may have been a clue.

    Police Officers are expected to deal with some very difficult situations, but what could be easier than reading off, or entering into a computer the registration of a car that you are following, while looking at the number plate.

    If you are unable to do this correctly, what could you be trusted to do?

    Also I think that The Police are on occasion the architects of their own downfall.

    On the one hand they made the stop because they were investigating gang and knife crime.

    On the other hand they made the stop because they came up with the car owners address in North Yorkshire.

    What is the likelihood of someone living in North Yorkshire being involved with a London gang?
    County Lines?
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862
    bbMike said:

    Never meant to click fold and clicked call instead? What else can’t you be trusted to do?! I’m not sure a world without mistakes is an attainable target.

    If you enter something and get a surprising answer, wouldnt you check?
    I think it is more about expecting The Police to perform a simple task correctly, than a world without mistakes.


    I believe the keying error pulled back a different make and model, so without double checking the officer perhaps thought they were looking at fake plates - which is probably a fair reason for a stop.

    All the more reason for checking rather than making a stop.
    Surely to God, if your check came up with a different make an model, and a North Yorkshire address then checking what you had entered would be the first port of call.
    Not least to avoid looking stupid.


    I’d like to see officers publish the body cam footage when ‘victims’ post their accounts, particularly where they’ve had a go at editing and deciding to go FULL CAPS on Twitter.

    Noted the black driver’s face is blurred out to protect his identity. No such courtesy for the officer.

    The officer apologised for wasting her time.
    The whole thing was difficult to understand.
    The officer said that they only stopped her because they input the registration incorrectly.
    They also said they were targeting cars that werent registered locally.
    They were targeting those involved in gang crime.
    That appears to be a confused picture to me.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862
    VespaPX said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Tikay10 said:


    "The simple answer to this problem would be to only employ Police Officers that are able to correctly enter a car registration number."

    Seems a little harsh. The fella keyed in a wrong digit.

    The fact that the incorrect registration gave the owners address in North Yorkshire may have been a clue.

    Police Officers are expected to deal with some very difficult situations, but what could be easier than reading off, or entering into a computer the registration of a car that you are following, while looking at the number plate.

    If you are unable to do this correctly, what could you be trusted to do?

    Also I think that The Police are on occasion the architects of their own downfall.

    On the one hand they made the stop because they were investigating gang and knife crime.

    On the other hand they made the stop because they came up with the car owners address in North Yorkshire.

    What is the likelihood of someone living in North Yorkshire being involved with a London gang?
    County Lines?
    Ok, but North Yorkshire would seem a bit of a stretch.

    The whole thing could have been avoided by entering the correct registration number.

    I dont think it would be an effective policy as I am sure the number of tourists overwhelmingly outweighs the number of drug dealers.
  • VespaPXVespaPX Member Posts: 12,404
  • bbMikebbMike Member Posts: 3,717
    It does seem to be a confusing stop. Dawn Butler seemed very confused. Seemed to think it was her that was being stopped, rather than her driver friend. Presume if you stop an innocent black person now, that is racism. Stopping innocent white people couldn’t be racism of course, but maybe it never ever happens.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862
    bbMike said:

    It does seem to be a confusing stop. Dawn Butler seemed very confused. Seemed to think it was her that was being stopped, rather than her driver friend. Presume if you stop an innocent black person now, that is racism. Stopping innocent white people couldn’t be racism of course, but maybe it never ever happens.

    Why stop a car just because it is registered out of the area?
  • bbMikebbMike Member Posts: 3,717
    Because it has black people inside, that seems to be the most common answer offered.
  • bbMikebbMike Member Posts: 3,717
    HAYSIE said:


    The whole thing could have been avoided by entering the correct registration number.

    Not if you believe the stop was in fact made because of systemic racism.
  • lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 7,939
    HAYSIE said:

    bbMike said:

    It does seem to be a confusing stop. Dawn Butler seemed very confused. Seemed to think it was her that was being stopped, rather than her driver friend. Presume if you stop an innocent black person now, that is racism. Stopping innocent white people couldn’t be racism of course, but maybe it never ever happens.

    Why stop a car just because it is registered out of the area?
    It's just one of the ways of policing the roads nowadays,in my area with a relatively small population of approx 20,000 on the outskirts of London,the Police regularly hold stop and search road checks on the main roads leading in,out of & through the area.They then publish the results of the operation and a significant number of arrests are made against 'outsiders' coming to the area to conduct their criminal activities with county drug lines being one of the most active.Like I said in my original post,if you've got nothing to hide then cooperate with them and you'll soon be on your way.
  • stokefcstokefc Member Posts: 7,830
    HAYSIE said:

    lucy4 said:

    Tikay10 said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Tikay10 said:


    "The simple answer to this problem would be to only employ Police Officers that are able to correctly enter a car registration number."

    Seems a little harsh. The fella keyed in a wrong digit.

    The fact that the incorrect registration gave the owners address in North Yorkshire may have been a clue.

    Police Officers are expected to deal with some very difficult situations, but what could be easier than reading off, or entering into a computer the registration of a car that you are following, while looking at the number plate.

    If you are unable to do this correctly, what could you be trusted to do?

    Also I think that The Police are on occasion the architects of their own downfall.

    On the one hand they made the stop because they were investigating gang and knife crime.

    On the other hand they made the stop because they came up with the car owners address in North Yorkshire.

    What is the likelihood of someone living in North Yorkshire being involved with a London gang?
    Keying in a registration number on a little keyboard whilst travelling in a car bumping along may well result in a keying error.

    And if it comes up with a car registered in Yorkshire driving around in Hackney, yes, that's could well be suspicious.

    There is systematic racism in the Met Police, no denying that, but Ms Butler seems to be making a meal of this when there is no need. She could not wait to tweet "I've been stopped by the police, I've filmed it all, full report coming" all seems a bit eager for confrontation to me.


    This point exactly,if people whether they be black,white,yellow,brown,gay,straight,male,female,young,old etc were to just listen,cooperate & engage with the police when stopped for any reason,instead of the first reaction/response being to whip their phones out and start trying to be become social media's next Quentin Tarantino,then most of the resulting events would never occur.

    If this was an event, then the recording of it didnt contribute to it.
    I think that everyone is entitled to ask why they have been stopped.
    The stats clearly show that you are more likely to be stopped if you are black.
    Do all Police Forces profile cars that are registered out of the area?
    If so, why?
    Dawn Butler was clearly confused by this targeting, as would most people.
    I am not sure if the recording was done by a dash cam, or a phone.
    The fact that many of these incidents are recorded should make The Police more careful in the way they deal with people
    In the old days they could probably get away with denying that they have said, or done something, but not any more.



    If you've done nothing wrong and got nothing to hide then engage with their enquiries,respond in a calm and peaceful manner and you'll soon be on your way.


    Two other stops have been covered on this thread.
    I thought that Dawn Butler behaved the best of them.
    She calmly asked them what they were up to.
    I dont think their story made sense.




    If they still persist with false/wrong/racist etc allegations,let them carry on oblige with their requests and then if you're still certain that you have been wronged,have your day in court,where you can then go full on Tarantino with the real media watching.

    Yes, I am certain The Police would admit to being racist in court.

    The Police have got a hard enough job to do in these times we're living in,without their every move/decision being subjected to trial by Facebook by those seeking instant fame and social media attention to boost their own egos.
    If you consider the number of tourists that visit London, it is a wonder The Met has time for anything, other than stopping cars that are registered outside the area.
    so do you disagree with what @lucy4 said , i think it's being smart and not reacting is the way to go even more so if you've got nowt to hide
    how would you react if stopped
  • MattBatesMattBates Member Posts: 4,118
    lucy4 said:

    HAYSIE said:

    bbMike said:

    It does seem to be a confusing stop. Dawn Butler seemed very confused. Seemed to think it was her that was being stopped, rather than her driver friend. Presume if you stop an innocent black person now, that is racism. Stopping innocent white people couldn’t be racism of course, but maybe it never ever happens.

    Why stop a car just because it is registered out of the area?
    It's just one of the ways of policing the roads nowadays,in my area with a relatively small population of approx 20,000 on the outskirts of London,the Police regularly hold stop and search road checks on the main roads leading in,out of & through the area.They then publish the results of the operation and a significant number of arrests are made against 'outsiders' coming to the area to conduct their criminal activities with county drug lines being one of the most active.Like I said in my original post,if you've got nothing to hide then cooperate with them and you'll soon be on your way.
    Would you not be extremely frustrated if you are repeatedly stopped when you have done nothing wrong?
  • lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 7,939
    MattBates said:

    lucy4 said:

    HAYSIE said:

    bbMike said:

    It does seem to be a confusing stop. Dawn Butler seemed very confused. Seemed to think it was her that was being stopped, rather than her driver friend. Presume if you stop an innocent black person now, that is racism. Stopping innocent white people couldn’t be racism of course, but maybe it never ever happens.

    Why stop a car just because it is registered out of the area?
    It's just one of the ways of policing the roads nowadays,in my area with a relatively small population of approx 20,000 on the outskirts of London,the Police regularly hold stop and search road checks on the main roads leading in,out of & through the area.They then publish the results of the operation and a significant number of arrests are made against 'outsiders' coming to the area to conduct their criminal activities with county drug lines being one of the most active.Like I said in my original post,if you've got nothing to hide then cooperate with them and you'll soon be on your way.
    Would you not be extremely frustrated if you are repeatedly stopped when you have done nothing wrong?
    I've been there and lived those experiences thanks to the late 1970's Sweeney style & early 1980's SPG (a law unto themselves) policing methods.Police harassment/brutality is nothing new it's been going on since the inception of the first Police force.I'll repeat that given the fragile times we live in a bit of understanding/cooperation would prevent a lot of the volatile situations.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862
    bbMike said:

    Because it has black people inside, that seems to be the most common answer offered.

    I was being serious.
    The Police admitted they were wrong in this instance, and apologised.
    They clearly stated that they would not have made the stop if the registration had not been entered incorrectly.
    They claimed the reason for the stop was that the car was not registered locally.

    This confused me.
    I was under the impression that the police needed a reason to stop you.
    For example in the Bianca Williams case they accused them of driving erratically, on the wrong side of the road, speeding off, and taking a suspicious route.
    In this case they said they could just stop them if they wanted to.
    So why didnt they just say that to Bianca Williams?

    So do The Police need a reason to stop you or not?

    I can see that a properly trained, experienced Police Officer may be able to spot suspicious looking people on the streets, and stop and search them.
    How on earth do you determine a suspicious car, that is being driven correctly?
    Is the fact that it is not registered locally suspicious enough?
    Dawn Butler was accused of nothing else.

    I am in favour of The Police being helped to catch as many criminals as possible
    I think they should opt for more clarity and less confusion.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862
    bbMike said:

    HAYSIE said:


    The whole thing could have been avoided by entering the correct registration number.

    Not if you believe the stop was in fact made because of systemic racism.
    She accused them of profiling the car rather than the occupants.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862
    lucy4 said:

    MattBates said:

    lucy4 said:

    HAYSIE said:

    bbMike said:

    It does seem to be a confusing stop. Dawn Butler seemed very confused. Seemed to think it was her that was being stopped, rather than her driver friend. Presume if you stop an innocent black person now, that is racism. Stopping innocent white people couldn’t be racism of course, but maybe it never ever happens.

    Why stop a car just because it is registered out of the area?
    It's just one of the ways of policing the roads nowadays,in my area with a relatively small population of approx 20,000 on the outskirts of London,the Police regularly hold stop and search road checks on the main roads leading in,out of & through the area.They then publish the results of the operation and a significant number of arrests are made against 'outsiders' coming to the area to conduct their criminal activities with county drug lines being one of the most active.Like I said in my original post,if you've got nothing to hide then cooperate with them and you'll soon be on your way.
    Would you not be extremely frustrated if you are repeatedly stopped when you have done nothing wrong?
    I've been there and lived those experiences thanks to the late 1970's Sweeney style & early 1980's SPG (a law unto themselves) policing methods.Police harassment/brutality is nothing new it's been going on since the inception of the first Police force.I'll repeat that given the fragile times we live in a bit of understanding/cooperation would prevent a lot of the volatile situations.
    They need to come to terms with modern technology.
    There are dash cams, body cams, CCTV, security cameras, and mobile phones.
    I can remember the days when if they wanted to stop you they could just make something up, like one of your lights was out.
    Those days are gone.
    They can get away with very little these days.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862
    MattBates said:

    lucy4 said:

    HAYSIE said:

    bbMike said:

    It does seem to be a confusing stop. Dawn Butler seemed very confused. Seemed to think it was her that was being stopped, rather than her driver friend. Presume if you stop an innocent black person now, that is racism. Stopping innocent white people couldn’t be racism of course, but maybe it never ever happens.

    Why stop a car just because it is registered out of the area?
    It's just one of the ways of policing the roads nowadays,in my area with a relatively small population of approx 20,000 on the outskirts of London,the Police regularly hold stop and search road checks on the main roads leading in,out of & through the area.They then publish the results of the operation and a significant number of arrests are made against 'outsiders' coming to the area to conduct their criminal activities with county drug lines being one of the most active.Like I said in my original post,if you've got nothing to hide then cooperate with them and you'll soon be on your way.
    Would you not be extremely frustrated if you are repeatedly stopped when you have done nothing wrong?
    It would seem that going on a journey is enough reason.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862
    stokefc said:

    HAYSIE said:

    lucy4 said:

    Tikay10 said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Tikay10 said:


    "The simple answer to this problem would be to only employ Police Officers that are able to correctly enter a car registration number."

    Seems a little harsh. The fella keyed in a wrong digit.

    The fact that the incorrect registration gave the owners address in North Yorkshire may have been a clue.

    Police Officers are expected to deal with some very difficult situations, but what could be easier than reading off, or entering into a computer the registration of a car that you are following, while looking at the number plate.

    If you are unable to do this correctly, what could you be trusted to do?

    Also I think that The Police are on occasion the architects of their own downfall.

    On the one hand they made the stop because they were investigating gang and knife crime.

    On the other hand they made the stop because they came up with the car owners address in North Yorkshire.

    What is the likelihood of someone living in North Yorkshire being involved with a London gang?
    Keying in a registration number on a little keyboard whilst travelling in a car bumping along may well result in a keying error.

    And if it comes up with a car registered in Yorkshire driving around in Hackney, yes, that's could well be suspicious.

    There is systematic racism in the Met Police, no denying that, but Ms Butler seems to be making a meal of this when there is no need. She could not wait to tweet "I've been stopped by the police, I've filmed it all, full report coming" all seems a bit eager for confrontation to me.


    This point exactly,if people whether they be black,white,yellow,brown,gay,straight,male,female,young,old etc were to just listen,cooperate & engage with the police when stopped for any reason,instead of the first reaction/response being to whip their phones out and start trying to be become social media's next Quentin Tarantino,then most of the resulting events would never occur.

    If this was an event, then the recording of it didnt contribute to it.
    I think that everyone is entitled to ask why they have been stopped.
    The stats clearly show that you are more likely to be stopped if you are black.
    Do all Police Forces profile cars that are registered out of the area?
    If so, why?
    Dawn Butler was clearly confused by this targeting, as would most people.
    I am not sure if the recording was done by a dash cam, or a phone.
    The fact that many of these incidents are recorded should make The Police more careful in the way they deal with people
    In the old days they could probably get away with denying that they have said, or done something, but not any more.



    If you've done nothing wrong and got nothing to hide then engage with their enquiries,respond in a calm and peaceful manner and you'll soon be on your way.


    Two other stops have been covered on this thread.
    I thought that Dawn Butler behaved the best of them.
    She calmly asked them what they were up to.
    I dont think their story made sense.




    If they still persist with false/wrong/racist etc allegations,let them carry on oblige with their requests and then if you're still certain that you have been wronged,have your day in court,where you can then go full on Tarantino with the real media watching.

    Yes, I am certain The Police would admit to being racist in court.

    The Police have got a hard enough job to do in these times we're living in,without their every move/decision being subjected to trial by Facebook by those seeking instant fame and social media attention to boost their own egos.
    If you consider the number of tourists that visit London, it is a wonder The Met has time for anything, other than stopping cars that are registered outside the area.
    so do you disagree with what @lucy4 said , i think it's being smart and not reacting is the way to go even more so if you've got nowt to hide
    how would you react if stopped
    Dawn Butler didnt kick off.

    I criticised those that went off on a rant, on the other 2 stops covered on this thread.

    The Police are consistently dealing with these incidents badly.

    I would cooperate in order to escape quickly.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,862
    lucy4 said:

    HAYSIE said:

    bbMike said:

    It does seem to be a confusing stop. Dawn Butler seemed very confused. Seemed to think it was her that was being stopped, rather than her driver friend. Presume if you stop an innocent black person now, that is racism. Stopping innocent white people couldn’t be racism of course, but maybe it never ever happens.

    Why stop a car just because it is registered out of the area?
    It's just one of the ways of policing the roads nowadays,in my area with a relatively small population of approx 20,000 on the outskirts of London,the Police regularly hold stop and search road checks on the main roads leading in,out of & through the area.They then publish the results of the operation and a significant number of arrests are made against 'outsiders' coming to the area to conduct their criminal activities with county drug lines being one of the most active.Like I said in my original post,if you've got nothing to hide then cooperate with them and you'll soon be on your way.
    The Police create many questions.




    Labour MP Dawn Butler accuses Met Police of racially profiling after they stopped her driving through Hackney
    The MP for Brent Central tweeted she had been stopped by police in Hackney
    Ms Butler, parliament's third black female MP, later released heated footage
    Chief Superintendent Roy Smith confirmed there had been a police stop
    Scotland Yard said wrong registration had been entered and stop was in error


    Scotland Yard explained the car was stopped because an officer 'incorrectly entered' its registration into a police occupier and identified it as a vehicle registered to an address in Yorkshire.

    'Upon stopping the vehicle and speaking with the driver, it quickly became apparent that the registration had been entered incorrectly and was registered to the driver in London,' a statement said.

    'Once the mistake was realised the officer sought to explain this to the occupants; they were then allowed on their way.'

    The statement did not explain why the registration was entered in the first place.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8609379/Labour-MP-Dawn-Butler-pulled-police-driving-London.html




    Dawn Butler police: Why was Dawn Butler stopped by police?
    DAWN BUTLER was stopped by police who later admitted they had made a mistake this weekend. Why was Dawn Butler stopped by police?



    Labour MP Dawn Butler has claimed she was the victim of racial profiling when she was stopped by police while travelling through London on Sunday. The MP for Brent Central was the passenger in a car with her friend when the police stopped them. The BMW was being driven by a male friend, who is also black, when it was pulled over by two police cars, Ms Butler said.

    It is the third time Butler has been stopped by police as an MP, she said, while her friend had been stopped regularly.

    Why did the police stop Dawn Butler?
    The Met Police have said Ms Butler was stopped due to a clerical error when an officer stopping her incorrectly entered the registration number of the car, which said the vehicle was registered in Yorkshire, some 250 miles away from London.

    Her footage of the stop, which happened at around lunchtime on Sunday, shows the officer saying they were carrying out searches because of "gang and knife crime".

    Ms Butler, a prominent race activist and one of few black female MPs currently in Parliament, has claimed she was stopped for the colour of her skin and has said that stop-and-search tactics by police are embedded in racism.

    She is heard in the video telling the officers: "It is really quite irritating. It's like you cannot drive around and enjoy a Sunday afternoon whilst black, because you're going to be stopped by police."

    She goes on to say: "If you are driving outside the area, I think that's a ridiculous reason to stop.

    "If you are profiling people who are driving in a certain type of car, that's an inappropriate reason to stop, and if you are profiling people because of the colour of their skin, that's an inappropriate reason to stop."

    One of the officers in the video is heard to say: "I appreciate everything you say and I do apologise for wasting your time."

    The Met Police have been contacted by Express.co.uk for comment.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1320879/Dawn-Butler-police-why-was-Dawn-Butler-stopped-by-police
  • bbMikebbMike Member Posts: 3,717
    I’d like to know how Dawn Butler would construct a model for making stop decisions. She wouldn’t use area or make of car. Wonder what might be better predictors instead.

    She’s been stopped 3 times yet is making out she can’t drive anywhere without being pulled over. Let’s forget the fact she wasn’t driving at all, and the driver doesn’t have the darkest shade of skin upon which the officers are supposedly making their decisions.

    There really is nothing to see here, apart from an MP trying to undermine police doing a difficult job.
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