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Effects Of Brexit.

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  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,038
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Are AZ making any vaccines in the USA?

    Try looking on Google. The answer appears to be no.

    But we have new evidence to show that, at the very least, the US has the raw ingredients from AZ to make massive amounts of what we would call vaccine.

    But AZ is not licenced in the USA. So, as far as US laws are concerned, no "vaccine" is being made. Just stuff that other countries think are vaccines. And US laws, unlike EU or UK laws, allow medicines to be held in the USA on the say-so of Government. Or in any contracts.

    So, ask yourself this. The USA is definitely stockpiling AZ ingredients, and is in all probability stockpiling AZ vaccine when they are the only major country in the World yet to authorise it. And, as Dr Fauci says, they hope to be in a position never to have to use any AZ vaccine, whereas AZ appear to be saying they could supply 50 million vaccines to the US.

    Now, according to the EU neither the UK or US are sending the EU vaccines. The UK, whether justified or not, appears to be using AZ vaccine to put in UK arms. Whereas, the US appear to be stockpiling materials and/or vaccines that they are not currently using, and hope never to use.

    While Europeans are dying in large numbers. And the world's largest economy by GDP is in crisis. While the world's 2nd largest economy by GDP seems to be holding on to vaccines or materials for themselves that it does not even intend to use.

    That is a serious point.
    Although I only posted the headline on a tongue in cheek basis to see if there were any biters.
    There is more to AZ than meets the eye.
    You might think that they would concentrate on fulfilling their existing contracts.
    I know what you mean.

    But it has become clear that there is another "existing contract" that was being hidden from us all. And that would not be AZ's doing. This had a secrecy agreement. Which, when someone was trying to score a point at Johnson & Johnson (could that really be twice as bad as 1 Boris Johnson?) they forgot all about.

    Which, if I was in the EU, either as a citizen or at the EU Commission, I would be mad about. And, if they could stop fixating on Brexit and politics, they should be doing something about.
    I agree.
  • Options
    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 7,999
    edited April 2021
    Just found this article, from the New York Times.

    "The U.S. Is Sitting on Tens of Millions of Vaccine Doses the World Needs

    Those tens of millions of doses from AstraZeneca are waiting for trial results, while countries that authorized the vaccine beg to have them.

    An Emergent BioSolutions laboratory in Baltimore. The company has already produced tens of millions of doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine, which cannot be used in the United States yet.
    An Emergent BioSolutions laboratory in Baltimore. The company has already produced tens of millions of doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine, which cannot be used in the United States yet.Credit...Michael Robinson Chavez/The Washington Post, via Getty Images

    By Noah Weiland and Rebecca Robbins
    March 11, 2021
    Leer en español

    WASHINGTON — Tens of millions of doses of the coronavirus vaccine made by the British-Swedish company AstraZeneca are sitting idly in American manufacturing facilities, awaiting results from its U.S. clinical trial while countries that have authorized its use beg for access.

    The fate of those doses of AstraZeneca’s vaccine is the subject of an intense debate among White House and federal health officials, with some arguing the administration should let them go abroad where they are desperately needed while others are not ready to relinquish them, according to senior administration officials.

    AstraZeneca is involved in those conversations.

    “We understand other governments may have reached out to the U.S. government about donation of AstraZeneca doses, and we’ve asked the U.S. government to give thoughtful consideration to these requests,” said Gonzalo Viña, a spokesman for AstraZeneca.

    About 30 million doses are currently bottled at AstraZeneca’s facility in West Chester, Ohio, which handles “fill-finish,” the final phase of the manufacturing process during which the vaccine is placed in vials, one official with knowledge of the stockpile said.

    Advertisement
    Continue reading the main story

    Emergent BioSolutions, a company in Maryland that AstraZeneca has contracted to manufacture its vaccine in the United States, has also produced enough vaccine in Baltimore for tens of millions more doses once it is filled into vials and packaged, the official said.


    But although AstraZeneca’s vaccine is already authorized in more than 70 countries, according to a company spokesman, its U.S. clinical trial has not yet reported results, and the company has not applied to the Food and Drug Administration for emergency use authorization. AstraZeneca has asked the Biden administration to let it loan American doses to the European Union, where it has fallen short of its original supply commitments and where the vaccination campaign has stumbled badly.

    The administration, for now, has denied the request, one official said.

    Some federal officials have pushed the White House to make a decision in the next few weeks. Officials have discussed sending doses to Brazil, which has been hard hit by a worsening coronavirus crisis, or the European Union or Britain.

    “If those donation actions were to proceed, we would seek guidance from the U.S. government on replacement of doses for use in the U.S.,” Mr. Viña said.

    The White House did not respond to a request for comment.

    The administration’s hesitation is at least partly related to uncertainties with vaccine supply before a benchmark of late May laid down by President Biden when he promised enough vaccine doses to cover every adult in the United States. Vaccine production is notoriously complex and delicate, and problems like mold growth can interrupt a plant’s progress."

    AZ are not perfect. Far from it.
    But America? sometimes it just takes my breath away.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,038
    HAYSIE said:

    The Brexit elite cannot hope to fool us for much longer



    https://uk.yahoo.com/news/brexit-elite-cannot-hope-fool-060001116.html


  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,038
    Arlene Foster accused of blatant 'arrogance' as DUP leader shifts blame after riots



    However, Ms Foster was hit by a swift backlash as listeners took to Twitter to voice their frustration at the leader's "arrogance", attitude and blame-shifting at a difficult time for the country.

    While speaking on Newsnight Mr O'Dowd said: "The DUP's support for a right-wing Conservative form of Brexit has caused huge problems for the Island of Ireland and the relationships across the border.

    "They chose to spend more time engaging with English nationals than they did with Irish nationals.



    "As a result, we had political failures and I think this is an attempt by political unionism to hide the feelings that they have made in this political era.

    "They were led by the nose of the Conservative Party and they fail their own people."

    Listeners were not convinced, however, with many lashing out at Ms Foster and accusing her of sidestepping her role in allowing Boris Johnson's Brexit deal through with the Northern Irish protocol and the subsequent frustrations and unrest in the country.

    One Twitter user wrote: "Arlene Foster demonstrating just how stupid she is, harking back to the Troubles.

    "No wonder she enabled Johnson's disastrous hard Brexit."

    Another added: "Arlene Foster spouting absolute nonsense and not even being quizzed on her role in this whole situation, appalling.

    Another wrote: "Arlene Foster on Radio 4 now, what a nasty piece of work, How can NI move on when politicians play games and are so childish."

    Another added: "Arlene Foster giving a masterclass in arrogance on the radio just now.

    "Sneering in her replies she blames all but herself and DUP for the toxic tailspin unionism appears trapped in.

    "A lame-duck leader with a scorched earth survival policy is not the answer we all need right now."

    https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby/community/forums#/discussion/180905/effects-of-brexit
  • Options
    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 7,999
    HAYSIE said:

    Arlene Foster accused of blatant 'arrogance' as DUP leader shifts blame after riots



    However, Ms Foster was hit by a swift backlash as listeners took to Twitter to voice their frustration at the leader's "arrogance", attitude and blame-shifting at a difficult time for the country.

    While speaking on Newsnight Mr O'Dowd said: "The DUP's support for a right-wing Conservative form of Brexit has caused huge problems for the Island of Ireland and the relationships across the border.

    "They chose to spend more time engaging with English nationals than they did with Irish nationals.



    "As a result, we had political failures and I think this is an attempt by political unionism to hide the feelings that they have made in this political era.

    "They were led by the nose of the Conservative Party and they fail their own people."

    Listeners were not convinced, however, with many lashing out at Ms Foster and accusing her of sidestepping her role in allowing Boris Johnson's Brexit deal through with the Northern Irish protocol and the subsequent frustrations and unrest in the country.

    One Twitter user wrote: "Arlene Foster demonstrating just how stupid she is, harking back to the Troubles.

    "No wonder she enabled Johnson's disastrous hard Brexit."

    Another added: "Arlene Foster spouting absolute nonsense and not even being quizzed on her role in this whole situation, appalling.

    Another wrote: "Arlene Foster on Radio 4 now, what a nasty piece of work, How can NI move on when politicians play games and are so childish."

    Another added: "Arlene Foster giving a masterclass in arrogance on the radio just now.

    "Sneering in her replies she blames all but herself and DUP for the toxic tailspin unionism appears trapped in.

    "A lame-duck leader with a scorched earth survival policy is not the answer we all need right now."

    https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby/community/forums#/discussion/180905/effects-of-brexit

    Completely agree with this.

    The idea that the DUP would just listen to Boris on what is possibly the most important decision in the history of Northern Ireland beggars belief.

    It could be that Boris was lying. It could be that he prioritised what was best for Boris Johnson, or Great Britain over Northern Ireland. It could be that he was unaware of what this would really mean for people on the island of Ireland.

    But why did the largest party in Northern Ireland stay quiet on what may prove to be the biggest threat to Unionism in Northern Ireland? Because I refuse to believe the DUP did not think this through. Were they still too busy counting the money they got from Theresa May?

    And why did no other party in NI or Ireland shout louder?
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,038
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Arlene Foster accused of blatant 'arrogance' as DUP leader shifts blame after riots



    However, Ms Foster was hit by a swift backlash as listeners took to Twitter to voice their frustration at the leader's "arrogance", attitude and blame-shifting at a difficult time for the country.

    While speaking on Newsnight Mr O'Dowd said: "The DUP's support for a right-wing Conservative form of Brexit has caused huge problems for the Island of Ireland and the relationships across the border.

    "They chose to spend more time engaging with English nationals than they did with Irish nationals.



    "As a result, we had political failures and I think this is an attempt by political unionism to hide the feelings that they have made in this political era.

    "They were led by the nose of the Conservative Party and they fail their own people."

    Listeners were not convinced, however, with many lashing out at Ms Foster and accusing her of sidestepping her role in allowing Boris Johnson's Brexit deal through with the Northern Irish protocol and the subsequent frustrations and unrest in the country.

    One Twitter user wrote: "Arlene Foster demonstrating just how stupid she is, harking back to the Troubles.

    "No wonder she enabled Johnson's disastrous hard Brexit."

    Another added: "Arlene Foster spouting absolute nonsense and not even being quizzed on her role in this whole situation, appalling.

    Another wrote: "Arlene Foster on Radio 4 now, what a nasty piece of work, How can NI move on when politicians play games and are so childish."

    Another added: "Arlene Foster giving a masterclass in arrogance on the radio just now.

    "Sneering in her replies she blames all but herself and DUP for the toxic tailspin unionism appears trapped in.

    "A lame-duck leader with a scorched earth survival policy is not the answer we all need right now."

    https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby/community/forums#/discussion/180905/effects-of-brexit

    Completely agree with this.

    The idea that the DUP would just listen to Boris on what is possibly the most important decision in the history of Northern Ireland beggars belief.

    It could be that Boris was lying. It could be that he prioritised what was best for Boris Johnson, or Great Britain over Northern Ireland. It could be that he was unaware of what this would really mean for people on the island of Ireland.

    But why did the largest party in Northern Ireland stay quiet on what may prove to be the biggest threat to Unionism in Northern Ireland? Because I refuse to believe the DUP did not think this through. Were they still too busy counting the money they got from Theresa May?

    And why did no other party in NI or Ireland shout louder?
    I think it is much simpler than that.

    Leaving the EU, assuming that we were leaving the single market and customs union, meant there was always going to have to be a border.
    Where else could it go?
    The border was always going to split NI off from the rest of the UK.
    This meant that NI was going to have to obey some EU rules.
    Theresa May said that no British PM would ever put a border in the Irish Sea, and Boris agreed.
    I just dont think that Boris had the bottle to admit he had done it.
    So he lied to everyone.
    He was still lying about it when Brandon Lewis blurted out in The House of Commons that there was in fact a border in the Irish Sea.
    What are the alternatives?
    He probably thought he would deal with it when we got there.
    So we have got there and it has caused a bit of chaos, and to avoid exacerbating the chaos he decided to unilaterally extend the grace periods.
    What happens next?

    What amazes me is that where did any of these astute politicians on all sides, think we would put the border?
  • Options
    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 7,999
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Arlene Foster accused of blatant 'arrogance' as DUP leader shifts blame after riots



    However, Ms Foster was hit by a swift backlash as listeners took to Twitter to voice their frustration at the leader's "arrogance", attitude and blame-shifting at a difficult time for the country.

    While speaking on Newsnight Mr O'Dowd said: "The DUP's support for a right-wing Conservative form of Brexit has caused huge problems for the Island of Ireland and the relationships across the border.

    "They chose to spend more time engaging with English nationals than they did with Irish nationals.



    "As a result, we had political failures and I think this is an attempt by political unionism to hide the feelings that they have made in this political era.

    "They were led by the nose of the Conservative Party and they fail their own people."

    Listeners were not convinced, however, with many lashing out at Ms Foster and accusing her of sidestepping her role in allowing Boris Johnson's Brexit deal through with the Northern Irish protocol and the subsequent frustrations and unrest in the country.

    One Twitter user wrote: "Arlene Foster demonstrating just how stupid she is, harking back to the Troubles.

    "No wonder she enabled Johnson's disastrous hard Brexit."

    Another added: "Arlene Foster spouting absolute nonsense and not even being quizzed on her role in this whole situation, appalling.

    Another wrote: "Arlene Foster on Radio 4 now, what a nasty piece of work, How can NI move on when politicians play games and are so childish."

    Another added: "Arlene Foster giving a masterclass in arrogance on the radio just now.

    "Sneering in her replies she blames all but herself and DUP for the toxic tailspin unionism appears trapped in.

    "A lame-duck leader with a scorched earth survival policy is not the answer we all need right now."

    https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby/community/forums#/discussion/180905/effects-of-brexit

    Completely agree with this.

    The idea that the DUP would just listen to Boris on what is possibly the most important decision in the history of Northern Ireland beggars belief.

    It could be that Boris was lying. It could be that he prioritised what was best for Boris Johnson, or Great Britain over Northern Ireland. It could be that he was unaware of what this would really mean for people on the island of Ireland.

    But why did the largest party in Northern Ireland stay quiet on what may prove to be the biggest threat to Unionism in Northern Ireland? Because I refuse to believe the DUP did not think this through. Were they still too busy counting the money they got from Theresa May?

    And why did no other party in NI or Ireland shout louder?
    I think it is much simpler than that.

    Leaving the EU, assuming that we were leaving the single market and customs union, meant there was always going to have to be a border.
    Where else could it go?
    The border was always going to split NI off from the rest of the UK.
    This meant that NI was going to have to obey some EU rules.
    Theresa May said that no British PM would ever put a border in the Irish Sea, and Boris agreed.
    I just dont think that Boris had the bottle to admit he had done it.
    So he lied to everyone.
    He was still lying about it when Brandon Lewis blurted out in The House of Commons that there was in fact a border in the Irish Sea.
    What are the alternatives?
    He probably thought he would deal with it when we got there.
    So we have got there and it has caused a bit of chaos, and to avoid exacerbating the chaos he decided to unilaterally extend the grace periods.
    What happens next?

    What amazes me is that where did any of these astute politicians on all sides, think we would put the border?
    You always want to believe life is "simpler".

    The baddies are always baddies. That sort of thing.

    Me? I think life is more complex. For example, if what you say is true (and I think a lot of this may well be) then Boris was rather more astute than May. And has been more successful than the self-proclaimed "awkward woman".

    And it wasn't that he lacked "bottle"-he achieved the promises that were given to the UK electorate. He was successful. We have moved forward. We have avoided the "No Deal" that you (and me) despised so much.

    The alternatives might have been a Bad/ No Deal for 60 million. Or a better (not perfect) deal for 59 million, with a deal that was about as bad as no deal for 1 million.

    Not great. But almost certainly the least bad of a bunch of bad options in 2019.

    I will never like Boris Johnson. But I think he deserves credit for that.
  • Options
    tai-gartai-gar Member Posts: 2,591
    edited April 2021
    Without Covid I think that we could easily have survived a “No Deal” or “Any Deal” Brexit.

    However, we now find ourselves in a very different financial position.

    The future still remains uncertain and our ability to cope with crisis after crisis is greatly diminished.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,038
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Arlene Foster accused of blatant 'arrogance' as DUP leader shifts blame after riots



    However, Ms Foster was hit by a swift backlash as listeners took to Twitter to voice their frustration at the leader's "arrogance", attitude and blame-shifting at a difficult time for the country.

    While speaking on Newsnight Mr O'Dowd said: "The DUP's support for a right-wing Conservative form of Brexit has caused huge problems for the Island of Ireland and the relationships across the border.

    "They chose to spend more time engaging with English nationals than they did with Irish nationals.



    "As a result, we had political failures and I think this is an attempt by political unionism to hide the feelings that they have made in this political era.

    "They were led by the nose of the Conservative Party and they fail their own people."

    Listeners were not convinced, however, with many lashing out at Ms Foster and accusing her of sidestepping her role in allowing Boris Johnson's Brexit deal through with the Northern Irish protocol and the subsequent frustrations and unrest in the country.

    One Twitter user wrote: "Arlene Foster demonstrating just how stupid she is, harking back to the Troubles.

    "No wonder she enabled Johnson's disastrous hard Brexit."

    Another added: "Arlene Foster spouting absolute nonsense and not even being quizzed on her role in this whole situation, appalling.

    Another wrote: "Arlene Foster on Radio 4 now, what a nasty piece of work, How can NI move on when politicians play games and are so childish."

    Another added: "Arlene Foster giving a masterclass in arrogance on the radio just now.

    "Sneering in her replies she blames all but herself and DUP for the toxic tailspin unionism appears trapped in.

    "A lame-duck leader with a scorched earth survival policy is not the answer we all need right now."

    https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby/community/forums#/discussion/180905/effects-of-brexit

    Completely agree with this.

    The idea that the DUP would just listen to Boris on what is possibly the most important decision in the history of Northern Ireland beggars belief.

    It could be that Boris was lying. It could be that he prioritised what was best for Boris Johnson, or Great Britain over Northern Ireland. It could be that he was unaware of what this would really mean for people on the island of Ireland.

    But why did the largest party in Northern Ireland stay quiet on what may prove to be the biggest threat to Unionism in Northern Ireland? Because I refuse to believe the DUP did not think this through. Were they still too busy counting the money they got from Theresa May?

    And why did no other party in NI or Ireland shout louder?
    I think it is much simpler than that.

    Leaving the EU, assuming that we were leaving the single market and customs union, meant there was always going to have to be a border.
    Where else could it go?
    The border was always going to split NI off from the rest of the UK.
    This meant that NI was going to have to obey some EU rules.
    Theresa May said that no British PM would ever put a border in the Irish Sea, and Boris agreed.
    I just dont think that Boris had the bottle to admit he had done it.
    So he lied to everyone.
    He was still lying about it when Brandon Lewis blurted out in The House of Commons that there was in fact a border in the Irish Sea.
    What are the alternatives?
    He probably thought he would deal with it when we got there.
    So we have got there and it has caused a bit of chaos, and to avoid exacerbating the chaos he decided to unilaterally extend the grace periods.
    What happens next?

    What amazes me is that where did any of these astute politicians on all sides, think we would put the border?
    You always want to believe life is "simpler".

    No I dont, sometimes it is very complicated.

    The baddies are always baddies. That sort of thing.

    They usually are.

    Me? I think life is more complex. For example, if what you say is true (and I think a lot of this may well be) then Boris was rather more astute than May. And has been more successful than the self-proclaimed "awkward woman".

    The Backstop which was Theresa Mays solution to this problem did not involve an Irish Sea border, however awkward she might have been.

    And it wasn't that he lacked "bottle"-he achieved the promises that were given to the UK electorate. He was successful. We have moved forward. We have avoided the "No Deal" that you (and me) despised so much.

    He put a border in the Irish Sea, while denying he had done so.
    He didnt have the bottle to admit he had done it.
    Even after Brandon Lewis admitted it, he maintained that there wasnt really a border, there would be no real customs checks, and no extra paperwork.
    When it transpired that there would be extra paperwork, he told everyone they could bin it, and if they were questioned, they were to respond that Boris said so.
    You are missing the point.
    The deal had nothing to do with it.
    If there had been no deal, and we planned to trade with the EU, and everybody else on WTO rules, we would still have to have had a border.
    The only place we could have put it is in the Irish Sea


    The alternatives might have been a Bad/ No Deal for 60 million. Or a better (not perfect) deal for 59 million, with a deal that was about as bad as no deal for 1 million.

    Theresa May had a better deal for everyone without an Irish Sea border, and the chaos associated with it.
    This was part of the Withdrawal Agreement rather than the deal.


    Not great. But almost certainly the least bad of a bunch of bad options in 2019.

    No.

    I will never like Boris Johnson. But I think he deserves credit for that.
    None whatsoever.

  • Options
    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 7,999
    tai-gar said:

    Without Covid I think that we could easily have survived a “No Deal” or “Any Deal” Brexit.

    However, we now find ourselves in a very different financial position.

    The future still remains uncertain and our ability to cope with crisis after crisis is greatly diminished.

    What Covid has undoubtedly done is changed the world we live in. In lots of ways.

    What is certain is this. Lovers and haters of Brexit will continue to ignore the fact that Covid has, at least in the short term, changed pretty much everything. And that assumptions either side have made have been totally changed by factors that have nothing to do with Brexit.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,038
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Arlene Foster accused of blatant 'arrogance' as DUP leader shifts blame after riots



    However, Ms Foster was hit by a swift backlash as listeners took to Twitter to voice their frustration at the leader's "arrogance", attitude and blame-shifting at a difficult time for the country.

    While speaking on Newsnight Mr O'Dowd said: "The DUP's support for a right-wing Conservative form of Brexit has caused huge problems for the Island of Ireland and the relationships across the border.

    "They chose to spend more time engaging with English nationals than they did with Irish nationals.



    "As a result, we had political failures and I think this is an attempt by political unionism to hide the feelings that they have made in this political era.

    "They were led by the nose of the Conservative Party and they fail their own people."

    Listeners were not convinced, however, with many lashing out at Ms Foster and accusing her of sidestepping her role in allowing Boris Johnson's Brexit deal through with the Northern Irish protocol and the subsequent frustrations and unrest in the country.

    One Twitter user wrote: "Arlene Foster demonstrating just how stupid she is, harking back to the Troubles.

    "No wonder she enabled Johnson's disastrous hard Brexit."

    Another added: "Arlene Foster spouting absolute nonsense and not even being quizzed on her role in this whole situation, appalling.

    Another wrote: "Arlene Foster on Radio 4 now, what a nasty piece of work, How can NI move on when politicians play games and are so childish."

    Another added: "Arlene Foster giving a masterclass in arrogance on the radio just now.

    "Sneering in her replies she blames all but herself and DUP for the toxic tailspin unionism appears trapped in.

    "A lame-duck leader with a scorched earth survival policy is not the answer we all need right now."

    https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby/community/forums#/discussion/180905/effects-of-brexit

    Completely agree with this.

    The idea that the DUP would just listen to Boris on what is possibly the most important decision in the history of Northern Ireland beggars belief.

    It could be that Boris was lying. It could be that he prioritised what was best for Boris Johnson, or Great Britain over Northern Ireland. It could be that he was unaware of what this would really mean for people on the island of Ireland.

    But why did the largest party in Northern Ireland stay quiet on what may prove to be the biggest threat to Unionism in Northern Ireland? Because I refuse to believe the DUP did not think this through. Were they still too busy counting the money they got from Theresa May?

    And why did no other party in NI or Ireland shout louder?
    I think it is much simpler than that.

    Leaving the EU, assuming that we were leaving the single market and customs union, meant there was always going to have to be a border.
    Where else could it go?
    The border was always going to split NI off from the rest of the UK.
    This meant that NI was going to have to obey some EU rules.
    Theresa May said that no British PM would ever put a border in the Irish Sea, and Boris agreed.
    I just dont think that Boris had the bottle to admit he had done it.
    So he lied to everyone.
    He was still lying about it when Brandon Lewis blurted out in The House of Commons that there was in fact a border in the Irish Sea.
    What are the alternatives?
    He probably thought he would deal with it when we got there.
    So we have got there and it has caused a bit of chaos, and to avoid exacerbating the chaos he decided to unilaterally extend the grace periods.
    What happens next?

    What amazes me is that where did any of these astute politicians on all sides, think we would put the border?
    You always want to believe life is "simpler".

    No I dont, sometimes it is very complicated.

    The baddies are always baddies. That sort of thing.

    They usually are.

    Me? I think life is more complex. For example, if what you say is true (and I think a lot of this may well be) then Boris was rather more astute than May. And has been more successful than the self-proclaimed "awkward woman".

    The Backstop which was Theresa Mays solution to this problem did not involve an Irish Sea border, however awkward she might have been.

    And it wasn't that he lacked "bottle"-he achieved the promises that were given to the UK electorate. He was successful. We have moved forward. We have avoided the "No Deal" that you (and me) despised so much.

    He put a border in the Irish Sea, while denying he had done so.
    He didnt have the bottle to admit he had done it.
    Even after Brandon Lewis admitted it, he maintained that there wasnt really a border, there would be no real customs checks, and no extra paperwork.
    When it transpired that there would be extra paperwork, he told everyone they could bin it, and if they were questioned, they were to respond that Boris said so.
    You are missing the point.
    The deal had nothing to do with it.
    If there had been no deal, and we planned to trade with the EU, and everybody else on WTO rules, we would still have to have had a border.
    The only place we could have put it is in the Irish Sea


    The alternatives might have been a Bad/ No Deal for 60 million. Or a better (not perfect) deal for 59 million, with a deal that was about as bad as no deal for 1 million.

    Theresa May had a better deal for everyone without an Irish Sea border, and the chaos associated with it.
    This was part of the Withdrawal Agreement rather than the deal.


    Not great. But almost certainly the least bad of a bunch of bad options in 2019.

    No.

    I will never like Boris Johnson. But I think he deserves credit for that.
    None whatsoever.

    The backstop is replaced
    Overall the backstop has essentially been replaced by a full stop whereby Northern Ireland remains aligned to the EU from the end of the transition period for at least four years. A change can only happen if it is voted on by the Stormont assembly (more of that later).


    As Jonathan Powell, Tony Blair’s chief negotiator in the Good Friday agreement, tweeted: “The funny side of the No 10 claim they have got rid of the backstop is that they have in fact transformed it from a fallback into the definitive future arrangement for NI with the province remaining in the single market and customs union”.

    Consent
    Stormont will have a key role in future Brexit arrangements. And if there is cross-community support to remain aligned to the EU rather than the UK the consent will hold for eight years.

    The arrangements in this deal will automatically kick in for a mandated four years if there is a breakdown in trade talks, so it remains a “backstop” but with a permanent tinge.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/17/how-is-boris-johnson-brexit-deal-different-from-theresa-may
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,038
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Arlene Foster accused of blatant 'arrogance' as DUP leader shifts blame after riots



    However, Ms Foster was hit by a swift backlash as listeners took to Twitter to voice their frustration at the leader's "arrogance", attitude and blame-shifting at a difficult time for the country.

    While speaking on Newsnight Mr O'Dowd said: "The DUP's support for a right-wing Conservative form of Brexit has caused huge problems for the Island of Ireland and the relationships across the border.

    "They chose to spend more time engaging with English nationals than they did with Irish nationals.



    "As a result, we had political failures and I think this is an attempt by political unionism to hide the feelings that they have made in this political era.

    "They were led by the nose of the Conservative Party and they fail their own people."

    Listeners were not convinced, however, with many lashing out at Ms Foster and accusing her of sidestepping her role in allowing Boris Johnson's Brexit deal through with the Northern Irish protocol and the subsequent frustrations and unrest in the country.

    One Twitter user wrote: "Arlene Foster demonstrating just how stupid she is, harking back to the Troubles.

    "No wonder she enabled Johnson's disastrous hard Brexit."

    Another added: "Arlene Foster spouting absolute nonsense and not even being quizzed on her role in this whole situation, appalling.

    Another wrote: "Arlene Foster on Radio 4 now, what a nasty piece of work, How can NI move on when politicians play games and are so childish."

    Another added: "Arlene Foster giving a masterclass in arrogance on the radio just now.

    "Sneering in her replies she blames all but herself and DUP for the toxic tailspin unionism appears trapped in.

    "A lame-duck leader with a scorched earth survival policy is not the answer we all need right now."

    https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby/community/forums#/discussion/180905/effects-of-brexit

    Completely agree with this.

    The idea that the DUP would just listen to Boris on what is possibly the most important decision in the history of Northern Ireland beggars belief.

    It could be that Boris was lying. It could be that he prioritised what was best for Boris Johnson, or Great Britain over Northern Ireland. It could be that he was unaware of what this would really mean for people on the island of Ireland.

    But why did the largest party in Northern Ireland stay quiet on what may prove to be the biggest threat to Unionism in Northern Ireland? Because I refuse to believe the DUP did not think this through. Were they still too busy counting the money they got from Theresa May?

    And why did no other party in NI or Ireland shout louder?
    Brexit Trade and Political Price for Northern Ireland

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFbf78lbTFc
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,038
    Includes Boris in lying action.

    Did Brexit Spark the Belfast Riots? What Really Instigated the Riots? - TLDR News

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge_zY1_1nds
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,038
    Essexphil said:

    tai-gar said:

    Without Covid I think that we could easily have survived a “No Deal” or “Any Deal” Brexit.

    However, we now find ourselves in a very different financial position.

    The future still remains uncertain and our ability to cope with crisis after crisis is greatly diminished.

    What Covid has undoubtedly done is changed the world we live in. In lots of ways.

    What is certain is this. Lovers and haters of Brexit will continue to ignore the fact that Covid has, at least in the short term, changed pretty much everything. And that assumptions either side have made have been totally changed by factors that have nothing to do with Brexit.
    You would probably like this one, he has a go at the Daily Mail.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7PIBDjpIi8
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,038
    tai-gar said:

    Without Covid I think that we could easily have survived a “No Deal” or “Any Deal” Brexit.

    However, we now find ourselves in a very different financial position.

    The future still remains uncertain and our ability to cope with crisis after crisis is greatly diminished.

    I think that no deal would have been much worse.

    Brexit has clearly created problems.

    You can blame covid for some of the stuff, like lorry drivers being delayed waiting for a covid test, but I think the majority of stuff that people are complaining about, are down to Brexit.

    Boris has to own it.

    The difficulties that are being experienced in NI, and elsewhere, are difficulties that he has agreed.

    When all the rules are in place, when the grace periods end, it is likely to get worse.
  • Options
    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 7,999
    Sorry.

    I try to read what you say.

    But I have to draw the line somewhere. As, even though I am sure that I read more of what you post than anyone else, I have to draw the line somewhere. And, having to click into articles from Brexit-deniers or Well Hard No Deal Brexit madmen is it.

    It's like your thread on lockdown programmes. I value what you say-I think we mostly like similar programmes, books etc. But I never click on to other people's adverts that you post.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,038
    Essexphil said:

    Sorry.

    I try to read what you say.

    But I have to draw the line somewhere. As, even though I am sure that I read more of what you post than anyone else, I have to draw the line somewhere. And, having to click into articles from Brexit-deniers or Well Hard No Deal Brexit madmen is it.

    It's like your thread on lockdown programmes. I value what you say-I think we mostly like similar programmes, books etc. But I never click on to other people's adverts that you post.

    Other peoples adverts?
  • Options
    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 7,999
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Sorry.

    I try to read what you say.

    But I have to draw the line somewhere. As, even though I am sure that I read more of what you post than anyone else, I have to draw the line somewhere. And, having to click into articles from Brexit-deniers or Well Hard No Deal Brexit madmen is it.

    It's like your thread on lockdown programmes. I value what you say-I think we mostly like similar programmes, books etc. But I never click on to other people's adverts that you post.

    Other peoples adverts?
    Trailers.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,038
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Sorry.

    I try to read what you say.

    But I have to draw the line somewhere. As, even though I am sure that I read more of what you post than anyone else, I have to draw the line somewhere. And, having to click into articles from Brexit-deniers or Well Hard No Deal Brexit madmen is it.

    It's like your thread on lockdown programmes. I value what you say-I think we mostly like similar programmes, books etc. But I never click on to other people's adverts that you post.

    Other peoples adverts?
    If you are referring to the videos?

    The first one discusses the BBC coverage of the damage to trade with NI.

    The second one is by TLDR, ( you previously questioned the name) which examines the reasons for the riots, and whether they are down to Brexit, The Police have made some high profile UDA arrests.
    It also includes the unfortunate Boris comments regarding unfettered access between NI, and UK, and vice versa.

    The third one savages a post Brexit, Daily Mail article.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,038
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Sorry.

    I try to read what you say.

    But I have to draw the line somewhere. As, even though I am sure that I read more of what you post than anyone else, I have to draw the line somewhere. And, having to click into articles from Brexit-deniers or Well Hard No Deal Brexit madmen is it.

    It's like your thread on lockdown programmes. I value what you say-I think we mostly like similar programmes, books etc. But I never click on to other people's adverts that you post.

    Other peoples adverts?
    Trailers.
    Informative videos?
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