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Effects Of Brexit.

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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,899
    Brexit: Imperial units only part of laws revamp, says No 10



    However, the changes were criticised by Labour's Angela Rayner, who tweeted: "My constituents are bothering about losing 20 quid a week from their universal credit, not twenty ounces or twenty pounds."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58597693
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,899
    M&S halts Christmas food ordering service in Northern Ireland



    The retailer produces a festive food catalogue allowing customers to place click and collect orders.

    But it said Northern Ireland will be excluded this year as there was "too much risk" it could let customers down.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-58597974
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,783
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Lapping up any pro-EU stuff.

    The "UK Trade and Business Commission" tries desperately to fool people as to its basis. It is not a Parliamentary Committee-it was set up by "Best for Britain", a campaign group whose main purposes are for us to rejoin the EU and to frustrate any moves towards independence from the EU.

    53% polled did not like Boris's deal? Sure. But then the majority have voted against pretty much everything-staying in the EU, every single type of deal to leave, every party wanting to remain.

    The British public votes against everything. In short, it votes to have the omelette without breaking eggs. Doesn't prove anything. Other than the public have unrealistic expectations.

    The polls that matter-the ones that really determine the path ahead-have not gone your way.

    "Crisis facing touring musicians"? Really? So they are to be treated like everyone else wanting to do work abroad. I don't see US bands finding this to be insurmountable.

    This is just the opposite side of the coin to the likes of the ERG. Propaganda. Designed to fool the gullible.

    So you think its a good deal, and there are no real problems?

    Of course not. There only seem to be 2 sides to the debate:-
    (1) It's all brilliant, we've got our country back; and
    (2) We're all doomed

    Both are faintly ridiculous.

    The Northern Ireland bit is not going well. There needs to be renegotiation on all sides, particularly including Ireland.

    There needs to be immigration policies tailor-made for the needs of the UK. a willingness not to rely on 3rd World countries to do our dirty work. And to provide forward-looking ideas. Not rest on the laurels/defeat of 2016.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,783
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Lapping up any pro-EU stuff.

    The "UK Trade and Business Commission" tries desperately to fool people as to its basis. It is not a Parliamentary Committee-it was set up by "Best for Britain", a campaign group whose main purposes are for us to rejoin the EU and to frustrate any moves towards independence from the EU.

    53% polled did not like Boris's deal? Sure. But then the majority have voted against pretty much everything-staying in the EU, every single type of deal to leave, every party wanting to remain.

    The British public votes against everything. In short, it votes to have the omelette without breaking eggs. Doesn't prove anything. Other than the public have unrealistic expectations.

    The polls that matter-the ones that really determine the path ahead-have not gone your way.

    "Crisis facing touring musicians"? Really? So they are to be treated like everyone else wanting to do work abroad. I don't see US bands finding this to be insurmountable.

    This is just the opposite side of the coin to the likes of the ERG. Propaganda. Designed to fool the gullible.

    I would disagree.
    There just arent any articles proclaiming UK triumphs in regard to Brexit.
    Of course there are. You just refuse to see them. I mentioned AUKUS a while back. you ignored it. We have the ability to be our own voice on the world stage. Without looking over our shoulder. To negotiate our own way in the world.

    It will all take time. Or would you rather we accepted merely being part of a pan-EU Army? Have our ability to be our own nation gradually eroded?

    In all deals such as this, there are good bits. And bad bits. You could certainly argue that (at the very least, economically) the bad outweigh the good. But no good at all? Delusional.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,899
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Lapping up any pro-EU stuff.

    The "UK Trade and Business Commission" tries desperately to fool people as to its basis. It is not a Parliamentary Committee-it was set up by "Best for Britain", a campaign group whose main purposes are for us to rejoin the EU and to frustrate any moves towards independence from the EU.

    53% polled did not like Boris's deal? Sure. But then the majority have voted against pretty much everything-staying in the EU, every single type of deal to leave, every party wanting to remain.

    The British public votes against everything. In short, it votes to have the omelette without breaking eggs. Doesn't prove anything. Other than the public have unrealistic expectations.

    The polls that matter-the ones that really determine the path ahead-have not gone your way.

    "Crisis facing touring musicians"? Really? So they are to be treated like everyone else wanting to do work abroad. I don't see US bands finding this to be insurmountable.

    This is just the opposite side of the coin to the likes of the ERG. Propaganda. Designed to fool the gullible.

    So you think its a good deal, and there are no real problems?

    Of course not. There only seem to be 2 sides to the debate:-
    (1) It's all brilliant, we've got our country back; and
    (2) We're all doomed

    Both are faintly ridiculous.

    The Northern Ireland bit is not going well. There needs to be renegotiation on all sides, particularly including Ireland.

    There needs to be immigration policies tailor-made for the needs of the UK. a willingness not to rely on 3rd World countries to do our dirty work. And to provide forward-looking ideas. Not rest on the laurels/defeat of 2016.
    Johnson’s claim Dutch PM offered to mediate in Brexit row not true, say sources


    “The [Dutch] prime minister called on Boris Johnson to be constructive, pragmatic and engage with the commission,” a Dutch diplomatic source said of last week’s meeting between the two leaders. “Both the UK and EU share the responsibility to make the protocol as negotiated and ratified on both sides of the Channel work for the people in Northern Ireland.”

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/johnson-s-claim-dutch-pm-offered-to-mediate-in-brexit-row-not-true-say-sources/ar-AAODpqt?ocid=msedgntp
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,899
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Lapping up any pro-EU stuff.

    The "UK Trade and Business Commission" tries desperately to fool people as to its basis. It is not a Parliamentary Committee-it was set up by "Best for Britain", a campaign group whose main purposes are for us to rejoin the EU and to frustrate any moves towards independence from the EU.

    53% polled did not like Boris's deal? Sure. But then the majority have voted against pretty much everything-staying in the EU, every single type of deal to leave, every party wanting to remain.

    The British public votes against everything. In short, it votes to have the omelette without breaking eggs. Doesn't prove anything. Other than the public have unrealistic expectations.

    The polls that matter-the ones that really determine the path ahead-have not gone your way.

    "Crisis facing touring musicians"? Really? So they are to be treated like everyone else wanting to do work abroad. I don't see US bands finding this to be insurmountable.

    This is just the opposite side of the coin to the likes of the ERG. Propaganda. Designed to fool the gullible.

    I would disagree.
    There just arent any articles proclaiming UK triumphs in regard to Brexit.
    Of course there are. You just refuse to see them. I mentioned AUKUS a while back. you ignored it. We have the ability to be our own voice on the world stage. Without looking over our shoulder. To negotiate our own way in the world.

    It will all take time. Or would you rather we accepted merely being part of a pan-EU Army? Have our ability to be our own nation gradually eroded?

    In all deals such as this, there are good bits. And bad bits. You could certainly argue that (at the very least, economically) the bad outweigh the good. But no good at all? Delusional.
    The slow, inevitable burst of Boris’s Brexit bubble
    And the first green shoots of a fightback.




    For three years, Brexit dominated the front pages of national newspapers and the headlines of TV news broadcasts. The long, torturous slog towards a conclusion to our withdrawal from the European Union was reported, the minutiae scrutinised and the soundbites replayed. Then, all went quiet. It was like the lights going out. The intense scrutiny gave way to almost total silence about the emerging realities of Brexit.

    Of course, this is due in no small part to the fact that nothing fundamentally changed during the transition period. Trade continued to flow seamlessly; travel from and to the EU remained uninhibited and the supermarket shelves were replete. Then, we left the Single Market and Customs Union as part of the enforcement of an extreme Brexit even prominent Leave campaigners repeatedly swore wasn’t on the cards. Since tearing ourselves wholesale from the European fabric on 31 December 2020, the fantasy pimped by the Brextemists has been rapidly debunked by the realities of the socio-economic vandalism perpetrated by this government.

    Self-imposed solitary confinement
    It is a tragic fact that in some ways, the UK had to take its medicine in this regard. The Leave cabal needed to see what life looks like in self-imposed solitary confinement. Had we not taken this extreme path, the much-repeated myths about ‘sovereignty’ would have simply been repeated ad nauseam under the ‘Leave Means Leave’ banner. Remainers take no pleasure in where we are at. Despite their repeated warnings that leaving the Single Market and Customs Union would be disastrous for business and individuals alike, there is nothing to crow about. With EU citizens with settled status being interrogated at the UK border and mixed-nationality families finding their movement severely hindered, there is a very human element to this tragedy that must not be omitted from the narrative.

    Johnson and co have thus far sought to bury this bad news under the COVID-19 crisis. The media have largely assisted him in achieving this as the country grapples with an unprecedented health crisis. Acute HGV driver shortages and sparsely filled supermarket shelves at have, until now, been largely dismissed as temporary, pandemic-related issues. Meanwhile, such problems are strangely absent in other European countries, themselves also struggling with the impact of coronavirus.

    Sir Roger Gale
    There are encouraging signs of reality dawning where it really matters, however. Just last week, at PMQs, Sir Roger Gale, MP for Thanet North raised the dilemma of hundreds of thousands of pounds’ worth of fruit going to waste in Kent fields. Instead of the opposition’s usual coy silence on Brexit as the root cause of the multitude of logistical crises we now face, Gale was met with cries of ‘Brexit!’ from the benches opposite. If it takes the Conservatives bellyaching about the consequences of their own misguided policies for Labour to wake up and speak out, so be it.

    Many businesses of all sizes have, up to now, been reluctant to explicitly name Brexit as the cause of the plethora of issues they are facing. Perhaps, understandably, this was quite simply an acceptance of the situation they were in and a quiet determination to ‘get on with it’. However, this week saw M&S announce the closure of 11 stores in France, placing the blame for this squarely with the UK’s decision to leave the EU and with it the Single Market and Customs Union.

    Manchester fishmonger
    Alongside this was a BBC interview with a Manchester fishmonger who looked directly into the camera and assigned the responsibility for her shipping costs more than tripling to Brexit. Despite this, the version aired on the BBC at 6pm was edited to omit this part. Even now, it seems some are determined to silence the facts.

    The complaints will only increase as more grace periods end and more administrative burdens hamper the flow of trade. But what we are seeing are the first green shoots of a fightback. That it has taken this level of disruption to force the obvious to be stated is trumped only by the speed at which ‘Project Fear’ has become ‘Project Here’. The UK can choose to ignore the entirely negative consequences of its geopolitical ignorance and economic recklessness. No doubt Johnson, having now established his whole political persona on a bed of Brexit lies, will continue to play to the gallery with his imperial measurements and pantomime bluster. But the truth is this; his Brexit bubble has started to deflate. It is now just a matter of time until it is as empty as the promises he made and, increasingly, the supermarket shelves we depend on.

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/the-slow-inevitable-burst-of-boriss-brexit-bubble-291244/
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,783
    edited September 2021
    Excellent. Quoting the Kate Hoey of Remainers.

    Lee Williscroft-Ferris. A man who believes that Brexit is both fascist and homophobic. A man desperate to turn back time.

    A man who brings precisely nothing to the table. Except for trotting out his Wish List. As empty as a Boris Bus.

    "Geopolitical ignorance"? There's a man who has been educated beyond his intelligence.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,899
    Essexphil said:

    Excellent. Quoting the Kate Hoey of Remainers.

    Lee Williscroft-Ferris. A man who believes that Brexit is both fascist and homophobic. A man desperate to turn back time.

    A man who brings precisely nothing to the table. Except for trotting out his Wish List. As empty as a Boris Bus.

    "Geopolitical ignorance"? There's a man who has been educated beyond his intelligence.

    You cant just continually shoot the messenger.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,783
    The EU, the Single Market, the Good Friday Agreement, and impact on Northern Ireland politics.

    The Single Market is much misunderstood. The 1 thing that it does consistently is provide various rules within the EU member countries.

    What it does not do is set out what tariffs./rules must apply in relation to trade with non-member countries. In a better world, this would be left to the directly affected nations to sort out. This is particularly important once you leave Europe's continental land mass, and look at the islands at the edge of Europe. Like Great Britain. Or Ireland. But no-the countries that run the EU make the rules.

    Let's look at Northern Ireland. Geographically, it has 3 major sources of trade. Itself, Ireland, and Great Britain.

    Then, let's briefly look at the Good Friday Agreement. At its heart, its basic premise is that, in order to avoid various problems, the people of Northern Ireland should be free to support the UK and Ireland. As it chooses. To avoid sectarianism.

    Now let's look at the current situation in Northern Ireland. Northern Irish goods may freely be traded to Ireland. And vice versa. But-if the goods come from Great Britain, people from Northern Ireland cannot sell those goods to people from Northern Ireland. But the EU does not have to impose these rules. It just chooses to do so. Compare/contrast with French Guiana, Greenland, the UK bases of Akrotiri/Dhekelia. Lots of compromises were and are possible.

    This is not just the fault of the EU. It is doing it for political reasons. As is Boris Johnson.

    But there are significant political changes in Northern Ireland as a result. The DUP share of the vote has collapsed, causing Sinn Fein to be comfortably the largest party in NI. The Unionist vote, having deserted the DUP, is going in 2 directions. Firstly, to the UUP-a moderate, left-leaning Party. But.

    The Party that has risen from nowhere to 3rd place in the polls is the TUV-the Traditional Unionist Voice. A group that make UKIP/the DUP look left wing and inclusive. Being given effective support by the machinations of the Conservatives and the EU.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,899
    Essexphil said:

    The EU, the Single Market, the Good Friday Agreement, and impact on Northern Ireland politics.

    The Single Market is much misunderstood. The 1 thing that it does consistently is provide various rules within the EU member countries.

    What it does not do is set out what tariffs./rules must apply in relation to trade with non-member countries. In a better world, this would be left to the directly affected nations to sort out. This is particularly important once you leave Europe's continental land mass, and look at the islands at the edge of Europe. Like Great Britain. Or Ireland. But no-the countries that run the EU make the rules.

    Let's look at Northern Ireland. Geographically, it has 3 major sources of trade. Itself, Ireland, and Great Britain.

    Then, let's briefly look at the Good Friday Agreement. At its heart, its basic premise is that, in order to avoid various problems, the people of Northern Ireland should be free to support the UK and Ireland. As it chooses. To avoid sectarianism.

    Now let's look at the current situation in Northern Ireland. Northern Irish goods may freely be traded to Ireland. And vice versa. But-if the goods come from Great Britain, people from Northern Ireland cannot sell those goods to people from Northern Ireland. But the EU does not have to impose these rules. It just chooses to do so. Compare/contrast with French Guiana, Greenland, the UK bases of Akrotiri/Dhekelia. Lots of compromises were and are possible.

    This is not just the fault of the EU. It is doing it for political reasons. As is Boris Johnson.

    But there are significant political changes in Northern Ireland as a result. The DUP share of the vote has collapsed, causing Sinn Fein to be comfortably the largest party in NI. The Unionist vote, having deserted the DUP, is going in 2 directions. Firstly, to the UUP-a moderate, left-leaning Party. But.

    The Party that has risen from nowhere to 3rd place in the polls is the TUV-the Traditional Unionist Voice. A group that make UKIP/the DUP look left wing and inclusive. Being given effective support by the machinations of the Conservatives and the EU.

    I cant believe you have posted this in good faith.
    Everyone was aware of the geographical situation before the referendum.
    None of our respected politicians ever pointed out the implications.
    After tearing up the backstop how could Boris not,
    1 Put a border in the Irish Sea?
    2 Not leave NI in the SM/CU?

    Boris split up the UK.

    As the Irish Sea border is the barrier between GB and the SM, we surely expected an increased number of checks?
    Who are we to dictate what checks the EU should carry out on their side?
    Perhaps Boris should have tried to negotiate less checks BEFORE signing the deal?

    I am not sure that the examples you quote are relevant, both in terms of volume of trade, and that unchecked goods are able to enter the SM through NI.

    You seem to ignore that these rules were in place while we were members, and we helped to compile them.

    The protection for NI, as far as Boris was concerned, was to include a clause where Stormont could vote the protocol down.
    This is a question I have asked you a number of times, but you have ignored it each time.
    Assuming the EU stick to their guns as firmly as the UK is likely to do, and Stormont votes down the protocol, what on earth could it be replaced with?
    Where could you move the border to?
    How do you get NI out of the SM, and CU?

    As I have said a number of times before the implementation of Brexit is the problem, rather than the protocol.

    Why do you think we have declined the EUs offer of a veterinary agreement to reduce the border checks by 80%?
    Why do you think that instead of accepting the options available to us, we have to blame the other side for not caving in to our demands?
    Dont forget that more havoc has been postponed by delaying the end of grace periods, some of them until the middle of next year.

    I find it absolutely ridiculous that Boris would rather die in a ditch than extend the transition period, on the advice of business leaders to postpone the new rules coming in to place.
    Yet he now seems to spend half his life whinging about these rules, and extending grace periods to avoid implementing them.
    You couldnt make it up.

    The DUP shot themselves in the foot by supporting a Brexit they clearly didnt understand, believed the lies told to them by the PM, and failed to get anything in writing.

    The people of NI have been let down by Boris, and the DUP.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,899
    Essexphil said:

    Excellent. Quoting the Kate Hoey of Remainers.

    Lee Williscroft-Ferris. A man who believes that Brexit is both fascist and homophobic. A man desperate to turn back time.

    A man who brings precisely nothing to the table. Except for trotting out his Wish List. As empty as a Boris Bus.

    "Geopolitical ignorance"? There's a man who has been educated beyond his intelligence.

    Astra boss ditches UK expansion plan to build new plant in Ireland as jabs row with Government escalates


    Pharma giant Astrazeneca has ditched plans for fresh investment in Macclesfield and will build a plant in Ireland instead after a dispute with ministers.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/astra-boss-ditches-uk-expansion-plan-to-build-new-plant-in-ireland-as-jabs-row-with-government-escalates/ar-AAOE8ei?ocid=msedgntp

    Brexit impact ‘will get worse’ with supermarket shop to cost more and some EU products vanishing from shelves




    The full impact of Brexit on both businesses and consumers will not be felt until next year with shortages set to worsen in sectors ranging from food to building materials, a leading customs expert has claimed.


    Simon Sutcliffe, a partner at tax and advisory firm Blick Rothenberg, believes Government delays in implementing post-Brexit customs laws have “softened the impact” of the UK’s exit from the European Union, and that “things will get worse” when they are finally brought in from January 2022.

    Despite leaving the EU on 1 January 2020, the Government has delayed many of the customs laws that were due to come into force last year.

    The requirement for pre-notification of arrival in the UK of agri-food imports will be introduced on 1 January 2022 as opposed to the already delayed date of 1 October this year.

    The new requirements for Export Health Certificates will now be introduced even later, on 1 July next year.

    Controls to protect animals and plants from diseases, pests, or contaminants will also be delayed until 1 July 2022, as will the requirement for Safety and Security declarations on imports.

    When these laws, which also include the customs declaration system, are brought in Mr Sutcliffe believes the food and raw material shortages already experienced to some extent – especially in Northern Ireland – will worsen on the mainland with some products disappearing from supermarket shelves for the foreseeable future.

    Mr Sutcliffe, who was among the first to predict the truck driver shortage and border issues in Northern Ireland, said: “Once these extra extensions come to an end we’re going to be in a whole world of pain for until importers get to grips with it just like the exporters from the UK to the EU have had to already.

    “The cost of the bureaucracy involved will mean many retailers will simply not stock some products from the EU any longer.

    If you know your fruit delivery is stuck in a UK port for 10 days waiting to be checked, then you’re not going to bother importing it as it’ll go off before it even reaches the store.

    “We’re looking at all kinds of products disappearing from supermarkets, from salami to cheeses, because they will just be too expensive to ship in. While a few boutique delicatessens may stock these products, they will become a more expensive and be harder to find.”

    He added that the supermarket shop will also face steep price rises as the cost of importing even basic products such as fresh meat, milk, eggs and vegetables will cost retailers more.

    “The retailers will not have much choice but to pass on at least some of the increased costs to the consumer,” said Mr Sutcliffe. “In other words, consumers will have less choice and will have to pay more for their weekly shop.”

    A spokesman for No 10 said: “We want businesses to focus on their recovery from the pandemic rather than have to deal with new requirements at the border, which is why we’ve set out a pragmatic new timetable for introducing full border controls.

    “Businesses will now have more time to prepare for these controls which will be phased in throughout 2022”



    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/technology/brexit-impact-will-get-worse-with-supermarket-shop-to-cost-more-and-some-eu-products-vanishing-from-shelves/ar-AAOEQ4G?ocid=msedgntp
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,899
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Lapping up any pro-EU stuff.

    The "UK Trade and Business Commission" tries desperately to fool people as to its basis. It is not a Parliamentary Committee-it was set up by "Best for Britain", a campaign group whose main purposes are for us to rejoin the EU and to frustrate any moves towards independence from the EU.

    53% polled did not like Boris's deal? Sure. But then the majority have voted against pretty much everything-staying in the EU, every single type of deal to leave, every party wanting to remain.

    The British public votes against everything. In short, it votes to have the omelette without breaking eggs. Doesn't prove anything. Other than the public have unrealistic expectations.

    The polls that matter-the ones that really determine the path ahead-have not gone your way.

    "Crisis facing touring musicians"? Really? So they are to be treated like everyone else wanting to do work abroad. I don't see US bands finding this to be insurmountable.

    This is just the opposite side of the coin to the likes of the ERG. Propaganda. Designed to fool the gullible.

    I would disagree.
    There just arent any articles proclaiming UK triumphs in regard to Brexit.
    Of course there are. You just refuse to see them. I mentioned AUKUS a while back. you ignored it. We have the ability to be our own voice on the world stage. Without looking over our shoulder. To negotiate our own way in the world.

    It will all take time. Or would you rather we accepted merely being part of a pan-EU Army? Have our ability to be our own nation gradually eroded?

    In all deals such as this, there are good bits. And bad bits. You could certainly argue that (at the very least, economically) the bad outweigh the good. But no good at all? Delusional.



  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,899
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,899
    edited September 2021
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Lapping up any pro-EU stuff.

    The "UK Trade and Business Commission" tries desperately to fool people as to its basis. It is not a Parliamentary Committee-it was set up by "Best for Britain", a campaign group whose main purposes are for us to rejoin the EU and to frustrate any moves towards independence from the EU.

    53% polled did not like Boris's deal? Sure. But then the majority have voted against pretty much everything-staying in the EU, every single type of deal to leave, every party wanting to remain.

    The British public votes against everything. In short, it votes to have the omelette without breaking eggs. Doesn't prove anything. Other than the public have unrealistic expectations.

    The polls that matter-the ones that really determine the path ahead-have not gone your way.

    "Crisis facing touring musicians"? Really? So they are to be treated like everyone else wanting to do work abroad. I don't see US bands finding this to be insurmountable.

    This is just the opposite side of the coin to the likes of the ERG. Propaganda. Designed to fool the gullible.

    I would disagree.
    There just arent any articles proclaiming UK triumphs in regard to Brexit.
    Of course there are. You just refuse to see them. I mentioned AUKUS a while back. you ignored it. We have the ability to be our own voice on the world stage. Without looking over our shoulder. To negotiate our own way in the world.

    It will all take time. Or would you rather we accepted merely being part of a pan-EU Army? Have our ability to be our own nation gradually eroded?

    In all deals such as this, there are good bits. And bad bits. You could certainly argue that (at the very least, economically) the bad outweigh the good. But no good at all? Delusional.
    A terminal crisis is looming for Boris Johnson’s doctrine of ‘cakeism’




    Britain’s involvement in Aukus – the new security partnership of the US, Australia and the UK, underpinned by a fleet of Australian nuclear submarines to patrol the Indo-Pacific oceans – has provoked rage, ridicule and incredulity.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/a-terminal-crisis-is-looming-for-boris-johnson-s-doctrine-of-cakeism/ar-AAOFcP1?ocid=msedgntp
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,899
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,899
    edited September 2021
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    The EU, the Single Market, the Good Friday Agreement, and impact on Northern Ireland politics.

    The Single Market is much misunderstood. The 1 thing that it does consistently is provide various rules within the EU member countries.

    What it does not do is set out what tariffs./rules must apply in relation to trade with non-member countries. In a better world, this would be left to the directly affected nations to sort out. This is particularly important once you leave Europe's continental land mass, and look at the islands at the edge of Europe. Like Great Britain. Or Ireland. But no-the countries that run the EU make the rules.

    Let's look at Northern Ireland. Geographically, it has 3 major sources of trade. Itself, Ireland, and Great Britain.

    Then, let's briefly look at the Good Friday Agreement. At its heart, its basic premise is that, in order to avoid various problems, the people of Northern Ireland should be free to support the UK and Ireland. As it chooses. To avoid sectarianism.

    Now let's look at the current situation in Northern Ireland. Northern Irish goods may freely be traded to Ireland. And vice versa. But-if the goods come from Great Britain, people from Northern Ireland cannot sell those goods to people from Northern Ireland. But the EU does not have to impose these rules. It just chooses to do so. Compare/contrast with French Guiana, Greenland, the UK bases of Akrotiri/Dhekelia. Lots of compromises were and are possible.

    This is not just the fault of the EU. It is doing it for political reasons. As is Boris Johnson.

    But there are significant political changes in Northern Ireland as a result. The DUP share of the vote has collapsed, causing Sinn Fein to be comfortably the largest party in NI. The Unionist vote, having deserted the DUP, is going in 2 directions. Firstly, to the UUP-a moderate, left-leaning Party. But.

    The Party that has risen from nowhere to 3rd place in the polls is the TUV-the Traditional Unionist Voice. A group that make UKIP/the DUP look left wing and inclusive. Being given effective support by the machinations of the Conservatives and the EU.

    I cant believe you have posted this in good faith.
    Everyone was aware of the geographical situation before the referendum.
    None of our respected politicians ever pointed out the implications.
    After tearing up the backstop how could Boris not,
    1 Put a border in the Irish Sea?
    2 Not leave NI in the SM/CU?

    Boris split up the UK.

    As the Irish Sea border is the barrier between GB and the SM, we surely expected an increased number of checks?
    Who are we to dictate what checks the EU should carry out on their side?
    Perhaps Boris should have tried to negotiate less checks BEFORE signing the deal?

    I am not sure that the examples you quote are relevant, both in terms of volume of trade, and that unchecked goods are able to enter the SM through NI.

    You seem to ignore that these rules were in place while we were members, and we helped to compile them.

    The protection for NI, as far as Boris was concerned, was to include a clause where Stormont could vote the protocol down.
    This is a question I have asked you a number of times, but you have ignored it each time.
    Assuming the EU stick to their guns as firmly as the UK is likely to do, and Stormont votes down the protocol, what on earth could it be replaced with?
    Where could you move the border to?
    How do you get NI out of the SM, and CU?

    As I have said a number of times before the implementation of Brexit is the problem, rather than the protocol.

    Why do you think we have declined the EUs offer of a veterinary agreement to reduce the border checks by 80%?
    Why do you think that instead of accepting the options available to us, we have to blame the other side for not caving in to our demands?
    Dont forget that more havoc has been postponed by delaying the end of grace periods, some of them until the middle of next year.

    I find it absolutely ridiculous that Boris would rather die in a ditch than extend the transition period, on the advice of business leaders to postpone the new rules coming in to place.
    Yet he now seems to spend half his life whinging about these rules, and extending grace periods to avoid implementing them.
    You couldnt make it up.

    The DUP shot themselves in the foot by supporting a Brexit they clearly didnt understand, believed the lies told to them by the PM, and failed to get anything in writing.

    The people of NI have been let down by Boris, and the DUP.
    NI Protocol port checks could be reduced by 80% – Coveney



    The number of checks on goods arriving into Northern Ireland from Great Britain could be reduced by 80%, the Irish Foreign Affairs minister has said.

    Simon Coveney said that option exists within the Northern Ireland Protocol if the UK was willing to agreed a common approach to standards in relation to veterinary practices, and sanitary and phytosanitary standards on food.


    https://www.itv.com/news/utv/2021-05-20/ni-protocol-port-checks-could-be-reduced-by-80-coveney
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,899
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Lapping up any pro-EU stuff.

    The "UK Trade and Business Commission" tries desperately to fool people as to its basis. It is not a Parliamentary Committee-it was set up by "Best for Britain", a campaign group whose main purposes are for us to rejoin the EU and to frustrate any moves towards independence from the EU.

    53% polled did not like Boris's deal? Sure. But then the majority have voted against pretty much everything-staying in the EU, every single type of deal to leave, every party wanting to remain.

    The British public votes against everything. In short, it votes to have the omelette without breaking eggs. Doesn't prove anything. Other than the public have unrealistic expectations.

    The polls that matter-the ones that really determine the path ahead-have not gone your way.

    "Crisis facing touring musicians"? Really? So they are to be treated like everyone else wanting to do work abroad. I don't see US bands finding this to be insurmountable.

    This is just the opposite side of the coin to the likes of the ERG. Propaganda. Designed to fool the gullible.

    So you think its a good deal, and there are no real problems?

    Of course not. There only seem to be 2 sides to the debate:-
    (1) It's all brilliant, we've got our country back; and
    (2) We're all doomed

    Both are faintly ridiculous.

    The Northern Ireland bit is not going well. There needs to be renegotiation on all sides, particularly including Ireland.

    There needs to be immigration policies tailor-made for the needs of the UK. a willingness not to rely on 3rd World countries to do our dirty work. And to provide forward-looking ideas. Not rest on the laurels/defeat of 2016.
    I suppose you would support the honesty box solution?
    I dont think that the word honesty, and Boris Johnson should be used in the same sentence.
    I am amazed that every other country in the world hasnt already adopted this fantastic Boris idea, think of the money they could save by implementing the honesty box system.

    How the EU would respond if London follows its threat and triggers Article 16




    The UK is pushing for changes to the protocol which was agreed to prevent a hard border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland after Brexit.

    In addition, the Government wants to see the removal of the European Court of Justice over Northern Ireland goods trade and an "honesty box" system for goods travelling across the Irish Border.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/how-the-eu-would-respond-if-london-follows-its-threat-and-triggers-article-16/ar-AAOF5w8?ocid=msedgntp
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,899
    Essexphil said:

    The EU, the Single Market, the Good Friday Agreement, and impact on Northern Ireland politics.

    The Single Market is much misunderstood. The 1 thing that it does consistently is provide various rules within the EU member countries.

    What it does not do is set out what tariffs./rules must apply in relation to trade with non-member countries. In a better world, this would be left to the directly affected nations to sort out. This is particularly important once you leave Europe's continental land mass, and look at the islands at the edge of Europe. Like Great Britain. Or Ireland. But no-the countries that run the EU make the rules.

    Let's look at Northern Ireland. Geographically, it has 3 major sources of trade. Itself, Ireland, and Great Britain.

    Then, let's briefly look at the Good Friday Agreement. At its heart, its basic premise is that, in order to avoid various problems, the people of Northern Ireland should be free to support the UK and Ireland. As it chooses. To avoid sectarianism.

    Now let's look at the current situation in Northern Ireland. Northern Irish goods may freely be traded to Ireland. And vice versa. But-if the goods come from Great Britain, people from Northern Ireland cannot sell those goods to people from Northern Ireland. But the EU does not have to impose these rules. It just chooses to do so. Compare/contrast with French Guiana, Greenland, the UK bases of Akrotiri/Dhekelia. Lots of compromises were and are possible.

    This is not just the fault of the EU. It is doing it for political reasons. As is Boris Johnson.

    But there are significant political changes in Northern Ireland as a result. The DUP share of the vote has collapsed, causing Sinn Fein to be comfortably the largest party in NI. The Unionist vote, having deserted the DUP, is going in 2 directions. Firstly, to the UUP-a moderate, left-leaning Party. But.

    The Party that has risen from nowhere to 3rd place in the polls is the TUV-the Traditional Unionist Voice. A group that make UKIP/the DUP look left wing and inclusive. Being given effective support by the machinations of the Conservatives and the EU.

    What would have happened if the EU had said no to NI staying in the SM/CU?
    What if they had insisted on the whole of the UK remaining in, or the whole of the UK leaving both?

    The end result is that NI has remained in, but we dont want to accept the rules associated with staying in, in NI, and we dont want to accept the rules imposed on third countries in the rest of the UK.
    We also cant accept that our exports to NI, are no longer classified as goods travelling within the UK.

    Why arent the EU at all unhappy with the agreement we both signed?
    Maybe they just knew what they were doing?
    Alternatively they may be just concentrating on implementing the rules, rather than whinging about them?
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,783

    I cant believe you have posted this in good faith.

    Really? You believe anyone who has an opinion that does not coincide with yours is acting in bad faith? How sad are you?

    Everyone was aware of the geographical situation before the referendum.
    None of our respected politicians ever pointed out the implications.

    2 sentences that contradict one another. The second is true.

    After tearing up the backstop how could Boris not,
    1 Put a border in the Irish Sea?
    2 Not leave NI in the SM/CU?

    Always going to be a major problem. Needs co-operation from both the UK and EU. Both sides failing in this.

    Boris split up the UK.

    No-he has not.

    As the Irish Sea border is the barrier between GB and the SM, we surely expected an increased number of checks?
    Who are we to dictate what checks the EU should carry out on their side?
    Perhaps Boris should have tried to negotiate less checks BEFORE signing the deal?

    Not as simple as that. There are lots of key borders. GB-NI. NI to Ireland, Ireland to the rest of the EU. Any sensible solution necessarily involves elements from all of these. For example, the GB-NI border is not "their side".

    I am not sure that the examples you quote are relevant, both in terms of volume of trade, and that unchecked goods are able to enter the SM through NI.

    You seem to ignore that these rules were in place while we were members, and we helped to compile them.

    The Single Market does not provide rules in relation to non-member countries. That is decided on a case-by-case basis by the EU. So-for example-Greenland joined the EEC in 1972 with Denmark. It then refused to abide by the Fisheries policy, and exited the EU, although it is still nominally in the Single Market. 90% of Greenland's exports are fish. No checks on the products in relation to following EU rules. There has been no case of the size of the UK-the EU has chosen to adopt a hardline approach.

    The protection for NI, as far as Boris was concerned, was to include a clause where Stormont could vote the protocol down.
    This is a question I have asked you a number of times, but you have ignored it each time.
    Assuming the EU stick to their guns as firmly as the UK is likely to do, and Stormont votes down the protocol, what on earth could it be replaced with?

    I'm not ignoring it. I can't predict the future. If Stormont were to vote down the Protocol, the likeliest result will be a return to the Troubles. And that will be the fault of the EU, as well as the UK.

    Where could you move the border to?
    How do you get NI out of the SM, and CU?

    No need to move the border. There have been special rules between the UK and Ireland since before the creation of the EEC. There needs to be a compromise that suits all parties. Like, for example, Switzerland.

    As I have said a number of times before the implementation of Brexit is the problem, rather than the protocol.

    The facts don't bear this out. Let's use the TUV as an example. NI elections-got precisely 1 seat. 2017 elections-nowhere. 2019 elections-didn't even field a candidate. 2021-look like a massive problem.

    Why do you think we have declined the EUs offer of a veterinary agreement to reduce the border checks by 80%?
    Why do you think that instead of accepting the options available to us, we have to blame the other side for not caving in to our demands?
    Dont forget that more havoc has been postponed by delaying the end of grace periods, some of them until the middle of next year.

    This is a typical example of how you only believe the facts that suit you. I'll deal withb this in a separate post.

    I find it absolutely ridiculous that Boris would rather die in a ditch than extend the transition period, on the advice of business leaders to postpone the new rules coming in to place.
    Yet he now seems to spend half his life whinging about these rules, and extending grace periods to avoid implementing them.
    You couldnt make it up.

    "Business leaders" want to do what is best for them. they're not unbiased. We have consistently voted for a Party that have delivered exactly what they promised. They didn't "make it up". We agreed to it. Not you, and not me-but democracy.

    The DUP shot themselves in the foot by supporting a Brexit they clearly didnt understand, believed the lies told to them by the PM, and failed to get anything in writing.

    Agree. With the exception that they did get some cash.

    The people of NI have been let down by Boris, and the DUP.

    This is where we disagree. The people of NI have been let down by Boris, the DUP AND the EU.


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