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Effects Of Brexit.

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  • tai-gartai-gar Member Posts: 2,678
    But Democracy does not involve me getting what I want. And the last 2 (Highly manipulated by lying cheating popularists's) Elections gave clear support to us not being in the EEA.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,658
    To quote Winston Churchill:-

    “Democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried.” He said that after losing the 1945 election.

    People on all sides lied. 1 side lied more successfully (as well as on a bigger scale). Not for the first time. And not for the last.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,517
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    The 2 articles above show rather differing approaches to the UK's role in a post-Brexit world.

    The 8:12 shows Sir Iain Duncan Donuts at his usual worst.

    Full of ideas. Empty on how to implement any of them. If he had the slightest clue, he could point to one of his 100 "rules", and show how one could be implemented without causing problems. But, of course, he doesn't.

    An increasingly irrelevant, ex-Tory Leader. Hanging around like a bad smell. Like Edward Heath, but without the talent.

    The 8:13 article is far more interesting. The City, contrary to appearing to be running around like Corporal Jones 2-4 years ago, now realises that life goes on. And that with new Rules comes new Opportunities. And that sensible tinkering of former EU Rules can profitably be done rather more easily in relation to Services (as opposed to Goods).

    I think that if your glass is half empty, you are unlikely to improve anything.
    Although the positive reports on post Brexit UK seem to follow a pattern.
    Commentators regularly point to the current decline in a particular area, but promise a huge improvement at some point in the future, often in the very distant future.
    For the sake of the country I hope these improvements occur, but many predictions fail to materialise.
    I follow many of the arguments with interest.
    It seems strange to me that after all the criticism of the EU and their rules during the referendum campaign, that we havent seen fit to escape from many of their rules as soon as we escaped.
    Wasnt that the point.
    So far we have got blue passports, crowns on pint glasses (which we could have had anyway), feet and inches, and pounds and ounces, (to confuse school kids, and manufacturers).
    But you are only looking at the economic side. And rather too much on agriculture/fishing.

    I believe an accurate summary so far would be:-

    1. In relation to goods, Brexit will cost us money. Not as much as Remainers claimed, but more than Brexiteers claimed. Difficult to say how much, due to the blurring effect of Covid. But quite a lot. People who trade within the UK will have done quite well, unlike importers/exporters. There has been a lack of planning for change, both from Government and Exporters. And a lack of accepting how many EU Rules need to stay.

    2. In relation to Services. Too early to tell. Much smaller initial hit than feared. More likely to be able to diverge profitably, but time will tell.

    3. Other benefits. Life is not just about money. It is about the freedom to make our own mistakes, and to do what the voters of the UK want. We were a part of the EEC. And the EC. But we do not want to be part of a European Union. Me? I'd love us to be in the EU at some level. But Democracy does not involve me getting what I want. And the last 2 Elections gave clear support to us not being in the EEA.
    I think that you have simplified the argument.
    Many things may get better in the future, but they may get worse.
    I have not said it was all about money.
    We are still at the initial stages, and havent even come to the end of the grace periods.
    As we abandon EU rules, things are likely to get worse, rather than better.
    As we enter into trade deals with other countries that dont meet EU standards, more friction is guaranteed.
    A united Ireland seems inevitable, it seems just a matter of when.
    Assuming this does occur, does that create more friction, or less?
    Some of the costs seem to be ignored.
    The Tories usually hammer the EU for their bureaucracy, yet Natalie Elphicke was on the other night, very happy that 650 jobs had been created through us having to implement it at the port of Dover.
    How many jobs have been created by this bureaucracy, that will last forever?
    What is the cost?

    I am not sure that the conclusions you draw from the election results are correct.
    It is easy to make assumptions about election results, that may not be true.
    How many people voted Tory, because they couldnt vote for Corbyn?
    How many voted Tory, particularly in red wall seats, because they felt left behind?
    How many now regret it?
    It is easy to assume the large Tory majority was down to Boris promising to Get Brexit Done.

    One thing that is clear, is that Brexit isnt done.
    Will it ever be done?
    Doesnt continual divergence mean regularly sitting around tables negotiating a constantly evolving Brexit.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,517
    Brexit: Drop in European trade hitting profits, say firms


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-60463145
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,517
    Essexphil said:

    To quote Winston Churchill:-

    “Democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried.” He said that after losing the 1945 election.

    People on all sides lied. 1 side lied more successfully (as well as on a bigger scale). Not for the first time. And not for the last.

    UK firms hit by record £4.5bn in customs duties after Brexit checks imposed



    https://uk.yahoo.com/news/uk-firms-hit-record-4-114420143.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,517
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,658
    HAYSIE said:
    Did you read that article?

    The Express is a truly awful rag. And is consistently in favour of a xenophobic Britain where Brexit is King.

    This article barely mentions Brexit at all. It's main focus is on lots of other factors. Which are affecting the whole world, regardless of whether they are in or out of the EU. The only time it does mention Brexit is to bemoan the fact that "deregulation" is not happening quicker.

    Ignoring the fact that this "deregulation", if not handled very carefully, would cause a bigger impact on exports than Brexit has.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,517
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:
    Did you read that article?

    The Express is a truly awful rag. And is consistently in favour of a xenophobic Britain where Brexit is King.

    This article barely mentions Brexit at all. It's main focus is on lots of other factors. Which are affecting the whole world, regardless of whether they are in or out of the EU. The only time it does mention Brexit is to bemoan the fact that "deregulation" is not happening quicker.

    Ignoring the fact that this "deregulation", if not handled very carefully, would cause a bigger impact on exports than Brexit has.
    I just thought it was a peculiar Express headline.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,658
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:
    Did you read that article?

    The Express is a truly awful rag. And is consistently in favour of a xenophobic Britain where Brexit is King.

    This article barely mentions Brexit at all. It's main focus is on lots of other factors. Which are affecting the whole world, regardless of whether they are in or out of the EU. The only time it does mention Brexit is to bemoan the fact that "deregulation" is not happening quicker.

    Ignoring the fact that this "deregulation", if not handled very carefully, would cause a bigger impact on exports than Brexit has.
    I just thought it was a peculiar Express headline.
    I suspect that its main focus was to try and ensure that Rishi Sunak is not the next PM. There seem to be a lot of press articles looking to do exactly that.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,517
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:
    Did you read that article?

    The Express is a truly awful rag. And is consistently in favour of a xenophobic Britain where Brexit is King.

    This article barely mentions Brexit at all. It's main focus is on lots of other factors. Which are affecting the whole world, regardless of whether they are in or out of the EU. The only time it does mention Brexit is to bemoan the fact that "deregulation" is not happening quicker.

    Ignoring the fact that this "deregulation", if not handled very carefully, would cause a bigger impact on exports than Brexit has.
    I just thought it was a peculiar Express headline.
    I suspect that its main focus was to try and ensure that Rishi Sunak is not the next PM. There seem to be a lot of press articles looking to do exactly that.
    DAN HODGES: Liz Truss sidelined. Rishi Sunak's economic plans in tatters. And the emergence of Ben Wallace as a Cabinet Action Man… How the race to replace Boris Johnson was turned on its head in just seven days



    DAN HODGES: Russia's invasion of the Ukraine is just over a week old. In the space of seven days, British politics has been turned on its head

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10581639/DAN-HODGES-race-replace-Boris-Johnson-turned-head-just-seven-days.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,517
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:
    Did you read that article?

    The Express is a truly awful rag. And is consistently in favour of a xenophobic Britain where Brexit is King.

    This article barely mentions Brexit at all. It's main focus is on lots of other factors. Which are affecting the whole world, regardless of whether they are in or out of the EU. The only time it does mention Brexit is to bemoan the fact that "deregulation" is not happening quicker.

    Ignoring the fact that this "deregulation", if not handled very carefully, would cause a bigger impact on exports than Brexit has.
    I just thought it was a peculiar Express headline.
    I suspect that its main focus was to try and ensure that Rishi Sunak is not the next PM. There seem to be a lot of press articles looking to do exactly that.
    He is as short as 5/4 in a couple of places.

    https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/next-conservative-leader
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,517
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:
    Did you read that article?

    The Express is a truly awful rag. And is consistently in favour of a xenophobic Britain where Brexit is King.

    This article barely mentions Brexit at all. It's main focus is on lots of other factors. Which are affecting the whole world, regardless of whether they are in or out of the EU. The only time it does mention Brexit is to bemoan the fact that "deregulation" is not happening quicker.

    Ignoring the fact that this "deregulation", if not handled very carefully, would cause a bigger impact on exports than Brexit has.
    Another one.

    Brexit Betrayal as UK farmers undercut by ‘massive flow' of cheap pesticide filled produce


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/brexit-betrayal-as-uk-farmers-undercut-by-massive-flow-of-cheap-pesticide-filled-produce/ar-AAUFPNi?ocid=msedgntp
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,517
    Kate Mosse: 'Brexit has made this a divided and ugly country'





    Worst thing about Brexit?
    There are people with integrity on both sides : people who believe Brexit is genuinely good for the country, and people who genuinely believe it is not. But between that, there’s an awful lot of dishonesty and ill faith. Brexit has made this a divided and ugly country. It’s made everything polarised and binary. You’re either for or against. I write about periods of history, and I know that while leaders would happily destroy everybody on the opposite team, most people want to live in harmony with their neighbours and have friendships with people who don’t have the same views.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/celebrity/kate-mosse-brexit-has-made-this-a-divided-and-ugly-country/ar-AAUvueZ?ocid=msedgntp
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,658
    HAYSIE said:

    Kate Mosse: 'Brexit has made this a divided and ugly country'





    Worst thing about Brexit?
    There are people with integrity on both sides : people who believe Brexit is genuinely good for the country, and people who genuinely believe it is not. But between that, there’s an awful lot of dishonesty and ill faith. Brexit has made this a divided and ugly country. It’s made everything polarised and binary. You’re either for or against. I write about periods of history, and I know that while leaders would happily destroy everybody on the opposite team, most people want to live in harmony with their neighbours and have friendships with people who don’t have the same views.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/celebrity/kate-mosse-brexit-has-made-this-a-divided-and-ugly-country/ar-AAUvueZ?ocid=msedgntp

    Brexit is only one step on that particular path. In my view, it goes something like:-

    1. Centuries-old distrust between UK and various states of Europe
    2. UK not allowed to join the EEC in the 50s/60s
    3. Various countries held referenda in 1972 as to whether the EEC should expand, in France and all possible joining countries-except for Britain
    4. UK finally holds referendum in 1975-after we had joined. Divisive campaign on both sides
    5. 4 decades of the UK both being in the EEC/EC/EU, while at the same time railing against pretty much every aim of the EU
    6. Nasty campaign in 2016 as to whether we should leave, with vitriol on all sides
    7. Nasty wrangling, both on the part of the EU and particularly the UK, on terms of leaving

    It is a bit lazy to blame everything on how we came to leave an institution that, to many, we either should not have been in, or were never fully part of. Think Maastricht, think the Euro. Think a hundred other occasions. Prior to us leaving.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,517
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Kate Mosse: 'Brexit has made this a divided and ugly country'





    Worst thing about Brexit?
    There are people with integrity on both sides : people who believe Brexit is genuinely good for the country, and people who genuinely believe it is not. But between that, there’s an awful lot of dishonesty and ill faith. Brexit has made this a divided and ugly country. It’s made everything polarised and binary. You’re either for or against. I write about periods of history, and I know that while leaders would happily destroy everybody on the opposite team, most people want to live in harmony with their neighbours and have friendships with people who don’t have the same views.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/celebrity/kate-mosse-brexit-has-made-this-a-divided-and-ugly-country/ar-AAUvueZ?ocid=msedgntp

    Brexit is only one step on that particular path. In my view, it goes something like:-

    1. Centuries-old distrust between UK and various states of Europe
    2. UK not allowed to join the EEC in the 50s/60s
    3. Various countries held referenda in 1972 as to whether the EEC should expand, in France and all possible joining countries-except for Britain
    4. UK finally holds referendum in 1975-after we had joined. Divisive campaign on both sides
    5. 4 decades of the UK both being in the EEC/EC/EU, while at the same time railing against pretty much every aim of the EU
    6. Nasty campaign in 2016 as to whether we should leave, with vitriol on all sides
    7. Nasty wrangling, both on the part of the EU and particularly the UK, on terms of leaving

    It is a bit lazy to blame everything on how we came to leave an institution that, to many, we either should not have been in, or were never fully part of. Think Maastricht, think the Euro. Think a hundred other occasions. Prior to us leaving.
    Do you think attitudes may change in the future?
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,517
    Why would we need the brightest, and best to work in hospitality, social care, and farming?



    Brexit betrayal: Boris Johnson ‘not doing what he said he would' to address ‘nutty' policy



    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/brexit-betrayal-boris-johnson-not-doing-what-he-said-he-would-to-address-nutty-policy/ar-AAUIVhx?ocid=msedgntp
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,658
    HAYSIE said:

    Why would we need the brightest, and best to work in hospitality, social care, and farming?



    Brexit betrayal: Boris Johnson ‘not doing what he said he would' to address ‘nutty' policy



    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/brexit-betrayal-boris-johnson-not-doing-what-he-said-he-would-to-address-nutty-policy/ar-AAUIVhx?ocid=msedgntp

    Exactly this.

    It is all very well banging on about the "brightest" and "best".

    In reality, there are a whole range of low-paid, low skilled, jobs that often involve hard work. With thousands of unfilled vacancies.

    We have spent many years expecting desperate people in the poorest members of the EU to do those jobs. Because in the many poor countries that have no minimum wage, our "low pay" seemed generous.

    The UK needs to do 1 of 2 things:-

    1. Incentivise British workers to do these jobs; or
    2. Have a system of immigration that is able to meet those needs

    And no amount of posturing or fantasising about our being a world power from Politicians will solve that problem.

    Again, the problem is not Brexit. It is the total lack of adapting to changed circumstances. The vote was 6 years ago. Time to have a plan for the future. Not just crowing about "getting Brexit done".
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