No cash for me last night, wanted to focus more on the stake. On Sky I just played the main and the mini, came 119th in the ME with £36 of heads so a couple of quid profit, and finished 89th in the mini not far outside the cash with £6.10 of heads so again a small profit.
Staked cash was bleurgh again, ugliest hand was flopped middle set V top set, all went in on the turn with no straights/flushes possible so 2nd nuts into nuts @ 200NL. Was about -$600 at the low point and managed to get it back to -$240 so I'll take that.
Points tallies are pretty insane in the Bronze tier for what I assume is supposed to be low stakes/low volume players so not much interest in trying to chase a result there so think I'm gonna be putting most of my focus onto the stake for the rest of the month.
I did have a nice +$600 session on the other site tho, mostly at 100nl cos I couldn't seem to get many games going at 200. So hopefully the start of a bit of momentum on there. Gonna be grinding pretty hard on there for the rest of the month cos I know I can get like $3k in RB/promos if I pull my finger out
Bagged another winning session, only +$200 but all winning is good. It would have been a little bigger but literally the last hand before I stand from one of my tables I open TT UTG and UTG1 flats (everyone else folds). I get a 359r flop and decide to c/c cos folds quite a lot but is prone to multi street bluffs if he sees weakness. So obv I get the perfect runout 359r 2 2 and c/c 3 streets and he's got 33 lol. So lost about $60 ish there.
Just realised that last sentence might grab the attention of Jac35 lol. See I'm not against RB per se I just think its important to beat the games too Posted by Lambert180
Lol
We're pretty much in agreement to be honest.
We both think being a winning player is the most important thing.
I just find it really odd that a few people on here talk about Rakeback as just a bonus and not important. It IMO should be very important. Just a little bit of effort in the first instance can make a huge difference in your monthly wage. When you're putting in the volume, then the difference between for example 25% and 30% is massive. I don't know whether its peoples egos but saying Rakeback is important is not a weakness.
You said in an earlier post that Rakeback might be more for recs but not pros. I think you've got that totally the wrong way round. Just look at the pros on other sites. I know you look at another forum. From some of the diaries on there. It's a crucial element of their online earnings.
To me it couldn't be simpler. Let's say that you were an excellent barman and hugely in demand. You wouldn't take the first job that you were offered. You would nose around and find who would pay you the most.
This thing about it's just a bonus and could disappear tomorrow and we shouldn't rely on it. It won't disappear. Unless every site takes the decision to remove Rakeback then it will always be there. People would just move to a site where it was offered. I've been playing for over 10 years online and Rakeback has always been there and I can't see that changing anytime soon.
Yeah I pretty much agree with everything you said Jac. My point about recs v pros was more about like, if you're a rec and just play for fun then it doesn't really matter if you're a losing player (assuming you can afford it) so RB is a nice free bonus but as a pro its probably better to be in a position where you make enough to live from the games.
I think a lot of the RB hate comes out of bitterness tbh, good players being annoyed about the fact they've worked hard and continue to work hard always improving their game while they see some lazy people taking the 'easy' (can of worms there) option of settling for mediocrity and just doing their best to break even, not bothering to improve just to make £X from RB.
You're right though, as a pro the most important thing is your total income. If that means playing in slightly tougher games with double the RB so you earn £30k per year instead of £25k then you'd be stupid to pick the softer site where you beat the games more but earn less.
If your good enough to play pro then I would take the rakeback as my monthly wage and my BR as seperate and dealt with on a quarterly/twice a year basis or even something at the end of a year where you have your flat BR level and anything above that can be taken out and invested/used as you see fit or even as a way of moving up levels etc.
That way there is no extra pressure that you have to win x amount each week/month and it leaves you clear to just play your game with no pressure.
The only flaw with that imo, is that if you're actually a good player then your profits from the game shuold be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your RB.
First month of going pro I made maybe £1k from the games at 20NL and a little under £300 RB if I remember rightly. This month I'm up £1k so far... my RB is about £8.60 lol. Sometimes quality is way better for your winrate than quantity. I've only been 4tabling 50NL on Sky and if I continued at this rate for the month I might get £100 RB at the absolute most. I'd be pretty disappointed if I didn't make 5x that at the tables
Yeah I pretty much agree with everything you said Jac. My point about recs v pros was more about like, if you're a rec and just play for fun then it doesn't really matter if you're a losing player (assuming you can afford it) so RB is a nice free bonus but as a pro its probably better to be in a position where you make enough to live from the games. Posted by Lambert180
disagree totally with this - sorry
pnl is total of winnings + rakeback
pro is trying to maximise pnl = maximise winnings + rakeback - ie rakeback important
rec is less focussed on pnl and more on enjoyment - ie rakeback is less important
now different pros may have different splits between how their income is generated between winnings and rakeback, but both components contribute. £1 from one is worth exactly the same as £1 from the other.
My choice of wording has probably been bad or I've just shown an inability to express my point. The main thing is that imo a pros game should not be focussed specifically towards RB.
Obv this is not an exact science cos in poker every month is completely different and this is a contrived exampled but, for instance....
Player A - Plays 100NL, on average per month he makes £2000 profit from the games and £100 RB so £2100 profit
Player B - Plays 100NL, on average per month he breaks even from the games and makes £2100 RB so £2100 profit also.
Imo, Player A is BY FAR the player I would back to have better longevity in the game, is going to be the better player overall, is going to have the better chance of moving up and actually being able to beat the higher games which leads to bigger profits (and bigger RB).
For some people RB is a side affect of playing good poker and winning, a very nice one at that, for others it's ALL about RB because they aren't good enough to beat the games. Both make profit but I know which I'd rather be if total profit was equal.
Maybe it's just my competetive side and wanting to strive to be the best (even though it's pretty much unattainable in this game).
The only flaw with that imo, is that if you're actually a good player then your profits from the game shuold be />>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your RB. First month of going pro I made maybe £1k from the games at 20NL and a little under £300 RB if I remember rightly. This month I'm up £1k so far... my RB is about £8.60 lol. Sometimes quality is way better for your winrate than quantity. I've only been 4tabling 50NL on Sky and if I continued at this rate for the month I might get £100 RB at the absolute most. I'd be pretty disappointed if I didn't make 5x that at the tables Posted by Lambert180
I agree you should be making money at the tables, that was not my point. But surely playing across multiple sites (or just one if you have a deal) the volume you put in should generate a decent minimum wage through RB? Obviously not being a pro i'm just going on what ive read about. Its just seems like a sensible view that no matter the variance you should still generate enough to live off and therefore have the pressure off during the bad times.
I may be way off, I dont know. I just assume that a pro would be putting in 8 hours a day and play a lot of tables?
Rakeback grinding used to be a dirty phase over at 2+2, however, now you'll see a lot of graphs being posted with rakeback inclusive lines. So the mindset regarding rb has changed imo over the last year or so.
Ultimatley, the main thing to consider regarding this topic is:-
Your volume/winrate over X sample size which simplified extrapolates to your hourly rate. Hourly rate over a large sample size is THE underlying key performance indicator as a poker player regardless of winrate/rakeback
The momentum ended on only day 3 where I had a rough night last night. Just the way it goes sometimes when you're playing across 2 different stakes but seems like everytime I have a really ugly cooler it's 200NL and everytime I'm dishing it out it'll be at 100NL etc. I've only just realised now as I'm typing this but it was virtually a mirror image of this morning's session (that'll make sense later)... anyway, rough going at the start, dropped about $700 but a little mini heater in the last 30-40 mins of the session recovered some of the losses so it was only a -$300 session.
This morning, I ran much better, everything went pretty much as well as it could do... every bluff catch did actually catch a bluff instead of the nuts virtually every bluff got through etc etc. So 3 hours in I was looking at a nice +$700 session, then boom, last 30-40 mins I got coolered for stacks a couple of times and ended up only finished +$250. Maybe could have got away from one... not sure though, IIRC it was a 3bet pot and I had AQ on something like KKJ8T - no flushes... he had KJ, the way it played out I don't think I could get away.
Also played a bit of 50NL on Sky this morning because I could only get 5-6 tables going on the other site. Didn't go too well, but funnily enough, my luck ran at polar opposites to the other site. I got battered for the start of the session, every bluff getting hero called or bluffing into the nuts blah blah. One annoying spot was that this guy had been 3betting my opens absolutely tons so I'd started 4betting him quite alot. He'd either folded to the 4bet or peeled and folded the flop up to this point and I was expecting it was only a matter of time before he got annoyed with the 4bets so the same scenario comes up again, I open, he 3bets, and I'm loving life that I actually have a hand worth 4betting this time (AKo), I 4bet and he snap shoves AT, I snap. KKQJT.... sigh.
Overall was getting battered, then as soon as I started running bad on the other site, I started heatering on Sky lol, managed to get back 2-3 BIs and finish -£130
On the RB side of things for anyone that's interested I've been keeping track this month... it's pretty easy to do cos HEM does it for you as long as you enter your RB % and I'm making about $50 in RB per 4hr session and I do a morning session + night time session so around $100 per day. I generally play in the region of 20-22 days of the month so around $2k. The site also has a weekly rake race (a never-ending one) which I should get about $200-$250 per week from, so things are looking good to meet my target of $3k per month of RB/promos.
I must say it's getting pretty tiresome now having run bad on the staking deal pretty much from the day I started. Logged in last night, loaded a few tables, literally like the 2nd or 3rd hand I was dealt was KK and we're only 3handed, get it in pre v AA. Then on another table like <1 min later we're 4handed and I get it in pre QQ v KK. Then another table <2 mins later, I get it all in the flop w/ AJss on 892ss and brick against 88.
So being -$600 in <5 mins sucked a little. Straight from the off there I didn't think I was gonna be able to play my A game on there and there would at least be an element of chasing getting back to break even. I played on a for a little bit more but decided that winning money/not losing more was far more important than just putting the hours in/getting RB with my C-game so I took a piece of advice I heard from a very good player recently about how sometimes if he sits down and the start of the session is horrific, he'll just quit, so I did.
So I managed abuot 30 mins play in total on there and managed to get it back to about -550 IIRC.
At the time though I'd just started playing some 50NL on Sky and that was going pretty well. I was just waiting on Emma to come upstairs to watch some Breaking Bad so I decided to play on till she came up. Ended up playing 6-7 tables for just shy of 3 hours and had a pretty sweet session, finished just shy of +£400
Shaping up to be a pretty good month on Sky, been playing and running really well at 50NL and with the £11 BH win it's almost a +£1.5k month so far and we're only 15 days in. I just wish I could transfer a bit of this rungood over to the staking deal!
============================
Getting right near the end of Breaking Bad now and I don't want it to end. No Spoilers Please! The last series is in 2 parts so there's Series 5: Part 1 and Part 2 (think it's like 13 eps in total). I'm about 5 episodes into Part 1 of it. Personally I think the show started a bit slow but series 3 tings started to get really good, series 4 was amazing, and this latest series has been great so far.
Cheers guys ^ I must say it's getting pretty tiresome now having run bad on the staking deal pretty much from the day I started. Logged in last night, loaded a few tables, literally like the 2nd or 3rd hand I was dealt was KK and we're only 3handed, get it in pre v AA. Then on another table like <1 min later we're 4handed and I get it in pre QQ v KK. Then another table <2 mins later, I get it all in the flop w/ AJss on 892ss and brick against 88. So being -$600 in <5 mins sucked a little. Straight from the off there I didn't think I was gonna be able to play my A game on there and there would at least be an element of chasing getting back to break even. I played on a for a little bit more but decided that winning money/not losing more was far more important than just putting the hours in/getting RB with my C-game so I took a piece of advice I heard from a very good player recently about how sometimes if he sits down and the start of the session is horrific, he'll just quit, so I did. So I managed abuot 30 mins play in total on there and managed to get it back to about -550 IIRC. At the time though I'd just started playing some 50NL on Sky and that was going pretty well. I was just waiting on Emma to come upstairs to watch some Breaking Bad so I decided to play on till she came up. Ended up playing 6-7 tables for just shy of 3 hours and had a pretty sweet session, finished just shy of +£400 Shaping up to be a pretty good month on Sky, been playing and running really well at 50NL and with the £11 BH win it's almost a +£1.5k month so far and we're only 15 days in. I just wish I could transfer a bit of this rungood over to the staking deal! ============================ Getting right near the end of Breaking Bad now and I don't want it to end. No Spoilers Please! The last series is in 2 parts so there's Series 5: Part 1 and Part 2 (think it's like 13 eps in total). I'm about 5 episodes into Part 1 of it. Personally I think the show started a bit slow but series 3 tings started to get really good, series 4 was amazing, and this latest series has been great so far. Posted by Lambert180
Cheers guys ^ I must say it's getting pretty tiresome now having run bad on the staking deal pretty much from the day I started. Logged in last night, loaded a few tables, literally like the 2nd or 3rd hand I was dealt was KK and we're only 3handed, get it in pre v AA. Then on another table like <1 min later we're 4handed and I get it in pre QQ v KK. Then another table <2 mins later, I get it all in the flop w/ AJss on 892ss and brick against 88. So being -$600 in <5 mins sucked a little. Straight from the off there I didn't think I was gonna be able to play my A game on there and there would at least be an element of chasing getting back to break even. I played on a for a little bit more but decided that winning money/not losing more was far more important than just putting the hours in/getting RB with my C-game so I took a piece of advice I heard from a very good player recently about how sometimes if he sits down and the start of the session is horrific, he'll just quit, so I did. So I managed abuot 30 mins play in total on there and managed to get it back to about -550 IIRC. At the time though I'd just started playing some 50NL on Sky and that was going pretty well. I was just waiting on Emma to come upstairs to watch some Breaking Bad so I decided to play on till she came up. Ended up playing 6-7 tables for just shy of 3 hours and had a pretty sweet session, finished just shy of +£400 Shaping up to be a pretty good month on Sky, been playing and running really well at 50NL and with the £11 BH win it's almost a +£1.5k month so far and we're only 15 days in. I just wish I could transfer a bit of this rungood over to the staking deal! ============================ Getting right near the end of Breaking Bad now and I don't want it to end. No Spoilers Please! The last series is in 2 parts so there's Series 5: Part 1 and Part 2 (think it's like 13 eps in total). I'm about 5 episodes into Part 1 of it. Personally I think the show started a bit slow but series 3 tings started to get really good, series 4 was amazing, and this latest series has been great so far. Posted by Lambert180
Just out of interest Paul, do your stakers not mind you playing off your own money on a different site? Particularly as you are winning vs running bad on the stake?
On the RB side of things for anyone that's interested I've been keeping track this month... it's pretty easy to do cos HEM does it for you as long as you enter your RB % and I'm making about $50 in RB per 4hr session and I do a morning session + night time session so around $100 per day. I generally play in the region of 20-22 days of the month so around $2k. The site also has a weekly rake race (a never-ending one) which I should get about $200-$250 per week from, so things are looking good to meet my target of $3k per month of RB/promos.
This was my point earlier on RB. That is a great 'basic' wage to have and being a good, winning player the rest takes care of itself. Knowing you have a 'wage' pre winnings surely takes the pressure off and makes you able to play your best game more consitently. You are then free to manage your BR with no pressure and any great profit can be invested elsewhere (eg; banked, spent on private rewards, house/car etc, etc) instead of a wage in itself.
Getting right near the end of Breaking Bad now and I don't want it to end. No Spoilers Please!The last series is in 2 parts so there's Series 5: Part 1 and Part 2 (think it's like 13 eps in total). I'm about 5 episodes into Part 1 of it. Personally I think the show started a bit slow but series 3 tings started to get really good, series 4 was amazing, and this latest series has been great so far.
Enjoy the ride. I too got into it late and the first seasons did run slowly (still good tv) but the pay off is worth it season 3 onwards. Being able to watch multiple episodes and not wait during breaks makes this series better IMO as things can run quicker. Just be prepared for the gaping hole it leaves once its gone!
In Response to Re: Lambert180 ----- Lolpro and Onwards ------- : Just out of interest Paul, do your stakers not mind you playing off your own money on a different site? Particularly as you are winning vs running bad on the stake? Posted by omm
Dunno tbh, hasn't come up in conversation. In terms of the results it wouldn't matter, obviously I have no control over how I run, I could equally be heatering like mad on there and running awful on Sky or whatever.
I always planned to just play cash on the stake and MTTs on my own money, then I just decided to play a bit near the start of this month when I saw the 50NL games were really good, and they've been good since. I've only like like 5-6 sessions of 50NL this month I think.
Comments
First month of going pro I made maybe £1k from the games at 20NL and a little under £300 RB if I remember rightly. This month I'm up £1k so far... my RB is about £8.60 lol. Sometimes quality is way better for your winrate than quantity. I've only been 4tabling 50NL on Sky and if I continued at this rate for the month I might get £100 RB at the absolute most. I'd be pretty disappointed if I didn't make 5x that at the tables
Player A - Plays 100NL, on average per month he makes £2000 profit from the games and £100 RB so £2100 profit
Maybe it's just my competetive side and wanting to strive to be the best (even though it's pretty much unattainable in this game).
Overall was getting battered, then as soon as I started running bad on the other site, I started heatering on Sky lol, managed to get back 2-3 BIs and finish -£130
It's all coming into place, on wards and upwards.
I must say it's getting pretty tiresome now having run bad on the staking deal pretty much from the day I started. Logged in last night, loaded a few tables, literally like the 2nd or 3rd hand I was dealt was KK and we're only 3handed, get it in pre v AA. Then on another table like <1 min later we're 4handed and I get it in pre QQ v KK. Then another table <2 mins later, I get it all in the flop w/ AJss on 892ss and brick against 88.
So I managed abuot 30 mins play in total on there and managed to get it back to about -550 IIRC.
At the time though I'd just started playing some 50NL on Sky and that was going pretty well. I was just waiting on Emma to come upstairs to watch some Breaking Bad so I decided to play on till she came up. Ended up playing 6-7 tables for just shy of 3 hours and had a pretty sweet session, finished just shy of +£400