In Response to Re: PLO8 DYM's - Tips, Advice, & Help Thread : I'm glad that someone with a bit of decorum can see the merits here. I don't know if you noticed, but i did not play my £5.50 tennis match until I had over £25 accumulated from the games at the lower level. This is because I am a total bankroll nit. Even if I lose the £5.50 match in straight sets, I still have around £10 behind to play matches at the microstakes, where I do not lose many tennis matches. I was talking to the Champ in the chatbox last night, and I hope he doesn't mind me bringing this up, when he told me that the game he was playing was the last of his bankroll, and that he had to win or his bankroll was gone. I told him how much my bankroll was, which is in four figures, and his actual words in the chatbox were FO. The conversation went on to how I managed this at microstakes, and that in his opinion I should be playing at much higher stakes. I didn't have time to explain to the Champ in the chatbox how I make a profit every month(I haven't depsoited since 2010 I think), and why I play at microstakes levels. So I will try and explain. Using my Tennis strategy, I know that I win nearly all my games at the microstakes, therefore i can build my bankroll, which gives me shots at higher buy ins, and also funds my PLO8 tournaments. Furthermore, I can accumulate more playing microstakes and laddering than I can playing a set number of games at a particular level. It would take me 100 games at £3.30 winning 60% to make £30. We all know that 60% is probably as much as a competent player will achieve. Your ROI would be 9% I can probably make the same £30 in less games laddering and utilising sound BRM. My ROI overall last month and this month is over 20%. I know that not everybody keep records of their games, but it really helps pinpoint what games bring you best returns not only in terms of cash, but more importantly ROI. The biggest ROI game that you have on your records should be the ones that you utilise to build your bankroll. I may sound a bit of a nit here, but this is how I can enjoy playing my beloved PLO8, at no actual cost to myself, plus build myself a nice little nest egg along the way. Posted by 67Bhoys
Nice post Craig,
Re your tennis tactic, I like that, breaking things down helps, I may actually use that.
Interestingly I use a very similar tactic in golf- I break the round into groups of 4 holes:
eg.
hole 1 is a really tough par 4 so i score this +1
hole 2 is a straightforward par3 so I score this hole 0
hole 3 is a very short par 4so I score this 0
hole 4 is a short par 5 so I score this -1
so in poker terms -1 against par over these holes is +ev
5 and 6 are really tough holes 7 and 8 are straightforward so +1 against par over these holes is still +ev
etc etc
This approach definitely helps keep me on track, both when things are going super well (not often) and when things are going badly (often).
I try not to change my ev scoring of the holes or my approach to playing them, difficuklt to do when your emotions are getting the better of you.
My BRM has got much better over the last 2 years, and the difference to my enjoyment of the game is immeasurable, I am not quite as much a BRM nit as you, not far behind though, I also have 4 figures at the moment although part of that is being used to finance a new mac which I have promised myself for a while now, but I never go below £500 and I generally have a limit to £5 games although I do sometimes throw in a £10 game ( and sometimes even a misclick £55 RR, yes really ;-))
I dont have a lot of spare cash (two children, wife etc. you know thw drill) so this has to be a small profit hobby, if it starts costing me then I will have to pass, so better BRM has made all the difference.
In Response to Re: PLO8 DYM's - Tips, Advice, & Help Thread : Nice post Craig, Re your tennis tactic, I like that, breaking things down helps, I may actually use that. Interestingly I use a very similar tactic in golf- I break the round into groups of 4 holes: eg. hole 1 is a really tough par 4 so i score this +1 hole 2 is a straightforward par3 so I score this hole 0 hole 3 is a very short par 4so I score this 0 hole 4 is a short par 5 so I score this -1 so in poker terms -1 against par over these holes is +ev 4 and 6 are really tough holes 5 and 7 are straightforward so +1 against par over these holes is still +ev etc etc This approach definitely helps keep me on track, both when things are going super well (not often) and when things are going badly (often). I try not to change my ev scoring of the holes or my approach to playing them, difficuklt to do when your emotions are getting the better of you. My BRM has got much better over the last 2 years, and the difference to my enjoyment of the game is immeasurable, I am not quite as much a BRM nit as you, not far behind though, I also have 4 figures at the moment although part of that is being used to finance a new mac which I have promised myself for a while now, but I never go below £500 and I generally have a limit to £5 games although I do sometimes throw in a £10 game ( and sometimes even a misclick £55 RR, yes really ;-)) I dont have a lot of spare cash (two children, wife etc. you know thw drill) so this has to be a small profit hobby, if it starts costing me then I will have to pass, so better BRM has made all the difference. Posted by HENDRIK62
I think this is the point I was trying to impress on the Champ, however I know there are folk who like to play as a hobby, and are happy to deposit a certain amount each week to enjoy their hobby. Unfortunately this is not in my nature.
I saw a post by Paul(Jac35), I think in Tomgooduns thread, where he says he doesn't gamble on horses, football etc. I am exactly the same. I am so risk averse it is not true. I play PLO8 for fun, but if I can do it for free all the better. I am in the same boat as yourself, I'm not going to make a fortune, but having a hobby that funds the odd laptop or holiday is a win win.
My bankroll nitness, I think stems from the fact that I've been in business for over 30 years, so my default mode is maximise profits, minimise costs, which might explain my preference in using ROI figures as opposed to actual winnings.
I'm not trying to lecture the Champ, let me say that right away, I wouldn't dare, doing it our way might not be in his nature. I am just explaining my methodology to him, as he did ask the question.
He probably never comes into the advice and help thread anyway, doesn't need to, coz he's the Champ.
That's really interesting Craig. When you play the micro stakes DYM's, do up you use a different strategy to that which you use at £3.30? Posted by Tikay10
Not too much, I don't think.
The biggest difference is the dynamic of the tables at the lower stakes. £3.30 and above, more players make the latter levels, 6 and above. They also protect their stacks better and know how to pick their spots better. Basicaly they are cuter(maybe not in looks) in the way they play.
The microstakes play is a lot looser, so level 6 and above, you may have 4 players, generally, though not always, one will have a massive stack, one will be short and the other two middling. Whereas I find at £3.30 and above, you often see 5 or 6 players making the latter levels with the differences of the stacks less widespread.
One difference I do find is there are more what I call Bullystacks at the micros. They want to play every pot and if they get a stack, they will take on the world with their spanners. I tend to let others get involved, as I don't want my lovely ming vase smashed by their spanners. They will either crash and burn, or end up in the final 4 with a massive stack.
Tikay/Hendo/Tuney, I took on board the advice you gave me regarding re-raising Tikay with a marginal hand. I have tightened my range up a bit, I would like your opinion on my new re-raising Tikay range. This one was the bottom of my range(wasn't loving the 8 dangler).
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance docquincy Small blind 75.00 75.00 1917.50 botneck Big blind 150.00 225.00 2565.00 Your hole cards A A 2 8 Macacgirl1 Fold tikay1 Raise 525.00 750.00 732.50 onejohnb Fold 67Bhoys All-in 1795.00 2545.00 0.00 docquincy Fold botneck Fold tikay1 All-in 732.50 3277.50 0.00 67Bhoys Unmatched bet 537.50 2740.00 537.50 tikay1 Show 4 A K K 67Bhoys Show A A 2 8 Flop 10 5 Q Turn 3 River 8 67Bhoys Win high Pair of Aces 1370.00 1907.50 67Bhoys Win low 8-low 1370.00 3277.50 Prev
You have a pair of aces and a good low card, 8 isn't ideal but it doubles as an emergency low, unlikely tk has aces so i would expect to see a range like A lo lo pic, A lo pic pic, a lo pp, a lo connectors
so IMO you have good enough equity against all of those.
eon is going to raise in front of you alot there and relatively wide as he knows you will if he doesn't.
you went in ahead with good a good low holding just got unlucky.
Ha, I got proper owned in the first one, I should have folded really I guess. Kings play really badly, I very rarely play them, but I had an emergency low (A-4) so I went with it hoping you had a strong low I suppose. I was probably "pressing" too hard, too soon, & paid the bill. As you may have noticed, I generally sit quiet early, then I have a gear change moment, & I think I went too soon here.
It's amazing how often we run into Aces in this game. I should deffo have given you more credit for your re-raise though. Yet another lesson learned the hard way, but that lesson will be cheap in the long run.
In the other one, v Eon, you just got very unlucky. He was in shocking shape on the flop, wayyy behind, & needed to hit a 2 outer to beat you.
It's a very interesting spot actually, because our ranges are weighted far more towards the low hand in these spots, & it was quite a brave move by Eon with 2nd pair, & who, I suppose, had you on a strong low. He plays low hands VERY strongly, too.
Think you played it perfectly, just one of those ones where we get turned over by someone who thinks they are in front.
It's spots like that which make me gasp when I see players run up winning streaks of 15 or 20 games, we need to get seriously lucky to avoid coolers like this.
Ha, I got proper owned in the first one, I should have folded really I guess. Kings play really badly, I very rarely play them, but I had an emergency low (A-4) so I went with it hoping you had a strong low I suppose. I was probably "pressing" too hard, too soon, & paid the bill. As you may have noticed, I generally sit quiet early, then I have a gear change moment, & I think I went too soon here. It's amazing how often we run into Aces in this game. I should deffo have given you more credit for your re-raise though. Yet another lesson learned the hard way, but that lesson will be cheap in the long run. In the other one, v Eon, you just got very unlucky. He was in shocking shape on the flop, wayyy behind, & needed to hit a 2 outer to beat you. It's a very interesting spot actually, because our ranges are weighted far more towards the low hand in these spots, & it was quite a brave move by Eon with 2nd pair, & who, I suppose, had you on a strong low. He plays low hands VERY strongly, too. Think you played it perfectly, just one of those ones where we get turned over by someone who thinks they are in front. It's spots like that which make me gasp when I see players run up winning streaks of 15 or 20 games, we need to get seriously lucky to avoid coolers like this. Posted by Tikay10
I Must say that after the flop I was none too confident of my hand holding up. Any K, any J any 2, and my hand is pants. Luckily for me it held up, unfortunately for me in the other one it did not. Swings and swongs as you so often say.
Both of these were in my £5.50 tennis match, the one with Eon was particularly hard to take, as I was in the 5th set in that game. Well thats my Wimbledon done. It's back to the puddleduck tennis club to take on some grannies.
I was just perusing SS, with my 5 free searches, and decided to compare and contrast mine with a few other ploppers.
I find the comparisons quite fascinating. I had the highest ROI(a big fixation of mine), and surprising to me, the 2nd biggest average stake.
The searches included Tikay Maca and Hendo.
I also found the graphs quite intersting too, some were a smooth gradual ascendancy, some more rollercoaster, some flatline. Maca's is so smooth and gradual an incline it's scary. until she won the Ukops of course, massive jump there, then continuing it's inevitable gradual incline once again. She also has a little twirling gold star next to her name. Is it any wonder I keep donating to the Maca benevolent fund?
I know that SS does not keep full records of all tournaments, my wins are definitely a lot more, as is my ROI as stated on there, but I think from looking at the graphs, it gives a general gist of how different our approaches are in online poker.
Hi, folks,avid plo8 nutter here!! Loving the whole set up and getting better every day.Strange how we play these gambling games and the reality is we are desperate to win at almost any cost! And yet the banter on the plo8 tables is the best i've ever seen...so nice to see the help and advice for newbies, i'm sure in a couple of years the plo8 tables will be full to capacity even when tikay is on 'holiday'!
Loving reading the posts about tennis strategy spreadsheets etc.I have no idea if i'm winning or losing..however i am a bigger nit than than most at bankroll management..and so there we have the advice in a nutshell..only play to the level your br allows..if it hurts to lose...STOP.
About 20 regs know this game inside out and all of them play different strategies..individual hands and games although interesting to analyse have little bearing on long term profits/loss....As the playing of plo8 evolves we have to change with it
. Tikays srategy is good..will it always be good?..doubtful..will tikay change his strategy? ..of course! So flexibility is key..in another year we will be playing differently to how we play now..or i guarantee we will be losing.
Sorry for my lack of activity on these threads,i will try to post more in future!
Hi, folks,avid plo8 nutter here!! Loving the whole set up and getting better every day.Strange how we play these gambling games and the reality is we are desperate to win at almost any cost! And yet the banter on the plo8 tables is the best i've ever seen...so nice to see the help and advice for newbies, i'm sure in a couple of years the plo8 tables will be full to capacity even when tikay is on 'holiday'! Loving reading the posts about tennis strategy spreadsheets etc.I have no idea if i'm winning or losing..however i am a bigger nit than than most at bankroll management..and so there we have the advice in a nutshell..only play to the level your br allows..if it hurts to lose...STOP. About 20 regs know this game inside out and all of them play different strategies..individual hands and games although interesting to analyse have little bearing on long term profits/loss....As the playing of plo8 evolves we have to change with it . Tikays srategy is good..will it always be good?..doubtful..will tikay change his strategy? ..of course! So flexibility is key..in another year we will be playing differently to how we play now..or i guarantee we will be losing. Sorry for my lack of activity on these threads,i will try to post more in future! Gl at the tables and above all enjoy it. Whizzewky.Aka whizzy! Aka 'vul' Aka Steve. Merry xmas. Posted by Whizzewky
Hi, folks,avid plo8 nutter here!! Loving the whole set up and getting better every day.Strange how we play these gambling games and the reality is we are desperate to win at almost any cost! And yet the banter on the plo8 tables is the best i've ever seen...so nice to see the help and advice for newbies, i'm sure in a couple of years the plo8 tables will be full to capacity even when tikay is on 'holiday'! Loving reading the posts about tennis strategy spreadsheets etc.I have no idea if i'm winning or losing..however i am a bigger nit than than most at bankroll management..and so there we have the advice in a nutshell..only play to the level your br allows..if it hurts to lose...STOP. About 20 regs know this game inside out and all of them play different strategies..individual hands and games although interesting to analyse have little bearing on long term profits/loss....As the playing of plo8 evolves we have to change with it . Tikays srategy is good..will it always be good?..doubtful..will tikay change his strategy? ..of course! So flexibility is key..in another year we will be playing differently to how we play now..or i guarantee we will be losing. Sorry for my lack of activity on these threads,i will try to post more in future! Gl at the tables and above all enjoy it. Whizzewky.Aka whizzy! Aka 'vul' Aka Steve. Merry xmas. Posted by Whizzewky
Flexibility eh? So I'll need to start yoga classes now? Jeez
Nice post bud, I agree, it's great how we can be so friendly in the chatbox whilst trying to rob each other blind. Long may it continue.
Hi, folks,avid plo8 nutter here!! Loving the whole set up and getting better every day.Strange how we play these gambling games and the reality is we are desperate to win at almost any cost! And yet the banter on the plo8 tables is the best i've ever seen...so nice to see the help and advice for newbies, i'm sure in a couple of years the plo8 tables will be full to capacity even when tikay is on 'holiday'! Loving reading the posts about tennis strategy spreadsheets etc.I have no idea if i'm winning or losing..however i am a bigger nit than than most at bankroll management..and so there we have the advice in a nutshell..only play to the level your br allows..if it hurts to lose...STOP. About 20 regs know this game inside out and all of them play different strategies..individual hands and games although interesting to analyse have little bearing on long term profits/loss....As the playing of plo8 evolves we have to change with it . Tikays srategy is good..will it always be good?..doubtful..will tikay change his strategy? ..of course! So flexibility is key..in another year we will be playing differently to how we play now..or i guarantee we will be losing. Sorry for my lack of activity on these threads,i will try to post more in future! Gl at the tables and above all enjoy it. Whizzewky.Aka whizzy! Aka 'vul' Aka Steve. Merry xmas. Posted by Whizzewky
Whizzzzzzzyyyyy.
Great to see you here. About time too, too.
This section is for Hand Analysis, tips, etc, for general banterage, we have 2 threads on the go;
1) The first is by the odious MacacGir1, who is running a £25 Challenge. Most of us congregate there for bants. Her thread is HERE
2) My own sort of Diary/Challenge thing continues, edging forward almost penny by penny, in F1 terms I'd be a McLaren. At this rate, I'll be able to retire in 137 years. That is HERE
Silly question time again I know when counting low hands A2 in the hand counts is it the same at the high end AK in the hand would beat KQ on an AQJT9 board or is it split
Silly question time again I know when counting low hands A2 in the hand counts is it the same at the high end AK in the hand would beat KQ on an AQJT9 board or is it split Posted by weecheez1
You both have the same hand - Broadway straight. Chop it up.
The high hand adheres to normal poker rules, whereas low hands don't - flushes, sets, pairs etc don't count in low hands.
In Response to Re: PLO8 DYM's - Tips, Advice, & Help Thread : You both have the same hand - Broadway straight. Chop it up. The high hand adheres to normal poker rules, whereas low hands don't - flushes, sets, pairs etc don't count in low hands. Posted by Tikay10
Ok thanks I am getting myself all mixed up I thought if you made a wheel with A2 in your hand it beat someone else's wheel if they used a 23 to make there's and the same playing high
In Response to Re: PLO8 DYM's - Tips, Advice, & Help Thread : Ok thanks I am getting myself all mixed up I thought if you made a wheel with A2 in your hand it beat someone else's wheel if they used a 23 to make there's and the same playing high Posted by weecheez1
Hi mate if you have A2 in your hole cards, and your opponent has 23
board A345*
Your low is 54321(using the A2 in your hand)
Your opponent 54321(using the 23 In their hand)
You both have a 5 low, the nut low, usually if you are HU, one of you will win 3/4 of the pot by taking the high and chopping the low, the other 1/4 by chopping the low.
Only if you have the same high hand, say in this case the wheel, then you both chop the high and the low hand.
If someone else is in the pot(3 way) and wins the high, they will take 1/2, you guys 1/4 each.
If you have a 5 low therefore you have the nut low.
If you have a 6 low, you do not necessarily have the 2nd nut low. There are four 6 lows, listed below from the 2nd nuts - 5th nuts(if you there is such a thing as the 5th nuts). So two players can both have a 6 low, but one players may be better than the other, and they will take the low pot.
64321(2nd nut low)
65321
65431
65432
On the high hands, it's exactly the same ranking as holdem, except you must use 2 cards from your hand and 3 from the board.
In Response to Re: PLO8 DYM's - Tips, Advice, & Help Thread : Hi mate if you have A2 in your hole cards, and your opponent has 23 board A345* Your low is 543 21 (using the A2 in your hand) Your opponent 54 32 1(using the 23 In their hand) You both have a 5 low, the nut low, usually if you are HU, one of you will win 3/4 of the pot by taking the high and chopping the low, the other 1/4 by chopping the low. Only if you have the same high hand, say in this case the wheel, then you both chop the high and the low hand. If someone else is in the pot(3 way) and wins the high, they will take 1/2, you guys 1/4 each. If you have a 5 low therefore you have the nut low. If you have a 6 low, you do not necessarily have the 2nd nut low. There are four 6 lows, listed below from the 2nd nuts - 5th nuts(if you there is such a thing as the 5th nuts). So two players can both have a 6 low, but one players may be better than the other, and they will take the low pot. 64321(2nd nut low) 65321 65431 65432 On the high hands, it's exactly the same ranking as holdem, except you must use 2 cards from your hand and 3 from the board. Posted by 67Bhoys
Thanks I understand that I am not explaining myself very well here I thought A2 still counted against 23 in like a count back but now I see the amount of wheels I folded containing 34 or A5 have cost me
In Response to Re: PLO8 DYM's - Tips, Advice, & Help Thread : Thanks I understand that I am not explaining myself very well here I thought A2 still counted against 23 in like a count back but now I see the amount of wheels I folded containing 34 or A5 have cost me Posted by weecheez1
Yes, it's confusing at first. A wheel is a wheel, no matter how it's constructed. It's only in 6 lows & above that "countback" is required.
But worry not, we can solve your problem very very EASILY. (More follows....)
Comments
Ha, I got proper owned in the first one, I should have folded really I guess. Kings play really badly, I very rarely play them, but I had an emergency low (A-4) so I went with it hoping you had a strong low I suppose. I was probably "pressing" too hard, too soon, & paid the bill. As you may have noticed, I generally sit quiet early, then I have a gear change moment, & I think I went too soon here.
It's amazing how often we run into Aces in this game. I should deffo have given you more credit for your re-raise though. Yet another lesson learned the hard way, but that lesson will be cheap in the long run.
In the other one, v Eon, you just got very unlucky. He was in shocking shape on the flop, wayyy behind, & needed to hit a 2 outer to beat you.
It's a very interesting spot actually, because our ranges are weighted far more towards the low hand in these spots, & it was quite a brave move by Eon with 2nd pair, & who, I suppose, had you on a strong low. He plays low hands VERY strongly, too.
Think you played it perfectly, just one of those ones where we get turned over by someone who thinks they are in front.
It's spots like that which make me gasp when I see players run up winning streaks of 15 or 20 games, we need to get seriously lucky to avoid coolers like this.
Whizzzzzzzyyyyy.
Great to see you here. About time too, too.
This section is for Hand Analysis, tips, etc, for general banterage, we have 2 threads on the go;
1) The first is by the odious MacacGir1, who is running a £25 Challenge. Most of us congregate there for bants. Her thread is HERE
2) My own sort of Diary/Challenge thing continues, edging forward almost penny by penny, in F1 terms I'd be a McLaren. At this rate, I'll be able to retire in 137 years. That is HERE
But worry not, we can solve your problem very very EASILY. (More follows....)