Tikay I have posted this hand as requested for further discussion
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance 67Bhoys Small blind 75.00 75.00 1915.00 jazzyjay05 Big blind 150.00 225.00 2385.00 Your hole cards A 3 6 9 lescrouper Fold TheBatster Fold tikay1 Raise 525.00 750.00 1085.00 67Bhoys Raise 1650.00 2400.00 265.00 jazzyjay05 Fold tikay1 All-in 1085.00 3485.00 0.00 67Bhoys Unmatched bet 115.00 3370.00 380.00 67Bhoys Show A 3 6 9 tikay1 Show 3 A 4 K Flop K 5 K Turn 9 River Q tikay1 Win high Three Kings 3370.00 3370.00 No qualifying low hand Prev
You may be right mate, but the bigger picture was that I had lost 5 games in a row, maybe variance, but I couldn't win a flip on the bubble for toffee.
I did think it was either a fold or a shove. I know Tikay isn't folding, so do I fancy my hand against his range? Frankly I did, I had High outs with the flush draws and outside straight possibilities, and a low draw with a counterfeit back up. He may have AA, but since I hold an ace, the likelyhood is that he has Ace High High low, or Ace High Low Low.
If Tikay had folded the button, I was doing what he did, maybe this was in my mind and swayed me, I don't know.
As for waiting for better spots, I had done that in the previous 5 and it hadn't worked out too well.
A marginal decision, yes, but sometimes you just have to roll the dice.*
Firstly - & I'm sure you know this - but it was not my intention to diss you, quite the opposite.
Your play impresses me greatly, you just get it, & I've already said if you play 100 games @ £3.30 or above, you'll turn a profit, unless you experience some real run-bad.
You've also now stated that, in effect, you were sort of tilted, or, perhaps more correctly, "pressing too hard" after losing 5 in a row. Been there, done that.
Anyway, having said all that, your play quite surprised me, I was not expecting you to turn up with that.
1) I think your hand is more of "first to open" hand, especially if the blinds are bigger. If someone opens in front of you, this should go in the bin really - you are not beating much at either end.
2) You have 1,950 chips at 75-150. This is tons. Plenty of time to wait for better spots, surely?
3) I'm not folding once I open - you know that.
4) Consider your seat. You are to my IMMEDIATE left. For the bulk of the game, that's the nut seat. Why? Because I don't make up the SB most of the time, & never once it gets to this level. I'm raising or folding, never "making up". Think how many "walks" you are going to get if you sit tight.
5) Am I likely to be making a desperado shove with a marginal as I'm short of chips? Nope. 1,600 @ 75-150 is zzzz time for me.
6) My range here? Well ALWAYS balanced. Always. 2 high, 2 low, always including an ace. I almost never enter a pot without an Ace. Your A-9 for the high cannot possibly be good, can it? And at this stage, I am DEFFO not opening with a low only hand - I almost never do until we reach shove mode much later. IMO, "Low only" hands are much over-rated.
So what that boils down to is DO YOU NEED TO MAKE THIS PLAY AT THIS POINT?
I don't think you do. You have plenty of chips, plenty of walks, & plenty of time.
I'll readily admit my game is based on avoiding un-necessary confrontation, which is way too nitty really, but I'm not a "punter".
So overall, I think in your spot here, I would ask myself - do I need to make this play?" And I think the answer is "no".
"first to open" is hugely important. If someone had opened in front of me, I would have binned my hand in a heartbeat. And my hand was stronger than yours, & I had less chips.
PS - here are the odds for your hand, pre-flop.
SCOOP - 22%
High - 49%. (A flip, effectively. Do you NEED to flip yet?)
Low - 6%. (Tie 29%).
Incidentally, look how bad your low is - 6%. That's the HUGE difference between my A-3-4, & your A-3-6. Incredible, isn't it?
Incidentally, I'm not mad on my play here either, it's a shade marginal, but I had good reason, as I was pretty sure I could force folds from at least 4 of the 5 players, none of whom like calling my raises much, & none of them generally get out of line much.
Having said all that, it was a brutal flop for you & I got very lucky with the high, but I had you all locked up pre-flop at the bottom end anyway. Which, of course, neither of us knew before we played the hand.
One other thing - if we swap seats, your open with the A-9-6-3 is fine. FIRST TO OPEN is huge. And I bin my (far better) hand if you have opened.
Cheers Tikay, as for the dissing, no problems there, I knew going into the £3.30 games that I probably would make more errors than the regs playing at that level.
It's fantastic that a recreational player such as myself can get this feedback from a player such as yourself, a man who has cashed in a WSOP PLO8 event.
On the pressing too hard, you are probably correct. In tennis terms, I was so fed up losing playing the baseline grinder game, I decided to go into Jimmy Connors mode, going for spectacular winners. Thankfully I have yet to go into McEnroe mode and throw the toys out the pram. I will endeavour to be more Bjorn Borg in the future, with ice water running through my veins.
Hendo and yourself pull no punches with your analysis, and thats how it should be. You cannot bury your head in the sand. Recognising you have leaks in your game and doing something to change that can only be for the good.
Talking of tennis, and at the risk of dissing myself(I know you guys will laugh at me), I do actually play tennis whilst playing DYMs. If you promise to stop laughing for five minutes, I might explain with a post on here.
You may be right mate, but the bigger picture was that I had lost 5 games in a row, maybe variance, but I couldn't win a flip on the bubble for toffee. I did think it was either a fold or a shove. I know Tikay isn't folding, so do I fancy my hand against his range? Frankly I did, I had High outs with the flush draws and outside straight possibilities, and a low draw with a counterfeit back up. He may have AA, but since I hold an ace, the likelyhood is that he has Ace High High low, or Ace High Low Low. If Tikay had folded the button, I was doing what he did, maybe this was in my mind and swayed me, I don't know. As for waiting for better spots, I had done that in the previous 5 and it hadn't worked out too well. A marginal decision, yes, but sometimes you just have to roll the dice.* HH * does this mean I'm changed to a red? Posted by 67Bhoys
Even when Tikay is playing slightly looser than normal, which he is at the moment, the hand he showed up with here would be right at the bottom of the range I would give him here. I may have raised pre flop with your hand here and called any all in to some players but to Tikay's raise pre I fold your hand and probably 99% of hands. I would reraise him all in with AA2x and little else.
Just my opinion obv.
(edit...weirdly when I posted this Tikay's post and the others after that weren't showing on my PC, so apologies for duplicating pretty much what Tikay said!)
In Response to Re: PLO8 DYM's - Tips, Advice, & Help Thread : I was looking through the hand history for this table, and I saw this so often, I thought it was your player name: Tikay1 Fold Posted by 67Bhoys
Running horrendous at the moment, a little example of recent run bad.
Special prize, if you can guess who luckboxLil is, she will give you big smacker on the lips.
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance 67Bhoys Small blind 400.00 400.00 1700.00 LuckboxLil Big blind 800.00 1200.00 1270.00 Your hole cards A 2 4 A Whizzewky Fold w4rlock Fold 67Bhoys All-in 1700.00 2900.00 0.00 LuckboxLil All-in 1270.00 4170.00 0.00 67Bhoys Unmatched bet 30.00 4140.00 30.00 67Bhoys Show A 2 4 A LuckboxLil Show 9 3 5 A Flop J 6 K Turn K River 6 LuckboxLil Win high Flush to the Ace 4140.00 4140.00 No qualifying low hand Prev
Cheers Tikay, as for the dissing, no problems there, I knew going into the £3.30 games that I probably would make more errors than the regs playing at that level. It's fantastic that a recreational player such as myself can get this feedback from a player such as yourself, a man who has cashed in a WSOP PLO8 event. On the pressing too hard, you are probably correct. In tennis terms, I was so fed up losing playing the baseline grinder game, I decided to go into Jimmy Conners mode, going for spectacular winners. Thankfully I have yet to go into McEnroe mode and throw the toys out the pram. I will endeavour to be more Bjorn Borg in the future, with ice water running through my veins. Hendo and yourself pull no punches with your analysis, and thats how it should be. You cannot bury your head in the sand. Recognising you have leaks in your game and doing something to change that can only be for the good. Talking of tennis, and at the risk of dissing myself(I know you guys will laugh at me), I do actually play tennis whilst playing DYMs. If you promise to stop laughing for five minutes, I might explain with a post on here. Posted by 67Bhoys
The only leak here I think, is being overly influenced by the previous recent results (I do it all the time as well) and getting frustrated that someone has 'stolen' your move (also something that often happens to me).
I think playing that hand the way you did negates the edge you have in these games and that has to be counterproductive
TK and Tuney both said it, if the pot is unraised, different scenario completely.....
Okay, I play my DYMs as tennis matches, stop laughing immediately.
So for example say I'm playing my 1st game @ £3.30, this will be the 1st set in the tennis. my aim is to win the match over 5 sets. If I win the 1st 3, then I win in straight sets, if I win 3/4 I win in 4 sets etc. Once a match is finished, you begin a new match.
Why do I do this I hear you ask. Well if I am winning tennis matches, I'm making at least 60% win rate, so my aim is to win as many tennis matches per month that I can.
This actually helps me maintain my win rate. I record my DYMs in a spreadsheet in the form of the tennis results.
I won two real tennis matches yesterday. One in straight sets and one in the decider. Are you saying I can now ask my opponents for money? Brilliant idea!
I won two real tennis matches yesterday. One in straight sets and one in the decider. Are you saying I can now ask my opponents for money? Brilliant idea!
In Response to Re: PLO8 DYM's - Tips, Advice, & Help Thread : That's really good Craig. I do all sorts of different psychological tricks to rev myself up, but nothing like that. Mine is just breaking the games into batches of 5, 15 & 30. Good stuff. Posted by Tikay10
I'm glad that someone with a bit of decorum can see the merits here. I don't know if you noticed, but i did not play my £5.50 tennis match until I had over £25 accumulated from the games at the lower level. This is because I am a total bankroll nit. Even if I lose the £5.50 match in straight sets, I still have around £10 behind to play matches at the microstakes, where I do not lose many tennis matches.
I was talking to the Champ in the chatbox last night, and I hope he doesn't mind me bringing this up, when he told me that the game he was playing was the last of his bankroll, and that he had to win or his bankroll was gone. I told him how much my bankroll was, which is in four figures, and his actual words in the chatbox were FO. The conversation went on to how I managed this at microstakes, and that in his opinion I should be playing at much higher stakes.
I didn't have time to explain to the Champ in the chatbox how I make a profit every month(I haven't depsoited since 2010 I think), and why I play at microstakes levels. So I will try and explain.
Using my Tennis strategy, I know that I win nearly all my games at the microstakes, therefore i can build my bankroll, which gives me shots at higher buy ins, and also funds my PLO8 tournaments.
Furthermore, I can accumulate more playing microstakes and laddering than I can playing a set number of games at a particular level.
It would take me 100 games at £3.30 winning 60% to make £30. We all know that 60% is probably as much as a competent player will achieve. Your ROI would be 9%
I can probably make the same £30 in less games laddering and utilising sound BRM. My ROI overall last month and this month is over 20%.
I know that not everybody keep records of their games, but it really helps pinpoint what games bring you best returns not only in terms of cash, but more importantly ROI. The biggest ROI game that you have on your records should be the ones that you utilise to build your bankroll.
I may sound a bit of a nit here, but this is how I can enjoy playing my beloved PLO8, at no actual cost to myself, plus build myself a nice little nest egg along the way.
Comments
Hi Craig,
Thanks for putting that up.
Firstly - & I'm sure you know this - but it was not my intention to diss you, quite the opposite.
Your play impresses me greatly, you just get it, & I've already said if you play 100 games @ £3.30 or above, you'll turn a profit, unless you experience some real run-bad.
You've also now stated that, in effect, you were sort of tilted, or, perhaps more correctly, "pressing too hard" after losing 5 in a row. Been there, done that.
Anyway, having said all that, your play quite surprised me, I was not expecting you to turn up with that.
I'll try & explain why now......
1) I think your hand is more of "first to open" hand, especially if the blinds are bigger. If someone opens in front of you, this should go in the bin really - you are not beating much at either end.
2) You have 1,950 chips at 75-150. This is tons. Plenty of time to wait for better spots, surely?
3) I'm not folding once I open - you know that.
4) Consider your seat. You are to my IMMEDIATE left. For the bulk of the game, that's the nut seat. Why? Because I don't make up the SB most of the time, & never once it gets to this level. I'm raising or folding, never "making up". Think how many "walks" you are going to get if you sit tight.
5) Am I likely to be making a desperado shove with a marginal as I'm short of chips? Nope. 1,600 @ 75-150 is zzzz time for me.
6) My range here? Well ALWAYS balanced. Always. 2 high, 2 low, always including an ace. I almost never enter a pot without an Ace. Your A-9 for the high cannot possibly be good, can it? And at this stage, I am DEFFO not opening with a low only hand - I almost never do until we reach shove mode much later. IMO, "Low only" hands are much over-rated.
So what that boils down to is DO YOU NEED TO MAKE THIS PLAY AT THIS POINT?
I don't think you do. You have plenty of chips, plenty of walks, & plenty of time.
I'll readily admit my game is based on avoiding un-necessary confrontation, which is way too nitty really, but I'm not a "punter".
So overall, I think in your spot here, I would ask myself - do I need to make this play?" And I think the answer is "no".
"first to open" is hugely important. If someone had opened in front of me, I would have binned my hand in a heartbeat. And my hand was stronger than yours, & I had less chips.
PS - here are the odds for your hand, pre-flop.
SCOOP - 22%
High - 49%. (A flip, effectively. Do you NEED to flip yet?)
Low - 6%. (Tie 29%).
Incidentally, look how bad your low is - 6%. That's the HUGE difference between my A-3-4, & your A-3-6. Incredible, isn't it?
Incidentally, I'm not mad on my play here either, it's a shade marginal, but I had good reason, as I was pretty sure I could force folds from at least 4 of the 5 players, none of whom like calling my raises much, & none of them generally get out of line much.
Having said all that, it was a brutal flop for you & I got very lucky with the high, but I had you all locked up pre-flop at the bottom end anyway. Which, of course, neither of us knew before we played the hand.
One other thing - if we swap seats, your open with the A-9-6-3 is fine. FIRST TO OPEN is huge. And I bin my (far better) hand if you have opened.
ALL imo, of course.
Just my opinion obv.
(edit...weirdly when I posted this Tikay's post and the others after that weren't showing on my PC, so apologies for duplicating pretty much what Tikay said!)
You boys do have some once a week.