In your post you said he was a sat winner who admitted he was out of his depth and you didn't mind playing a pot in position with him would this player been better not to say anything beforehand and would you play the hand the same way against someone with more experience Posted by weecheez1
Hi Weecheez.
Yes he would have been better off not saying anything beforehand.
However, this sort of thing becomes very obvious to the rest of the table anyway.
(His awkwardness with chips, not sure when to act, way he looks at his cards, double checking chip denominations, mentally counting pot size, way he puts his chips in the pot, facial expressions all giving away his inexperience)
Do I play it differently against an experienced player?
Yes, I fold pre-flop. (Normally I'm not a great fan of playing suited connectors against an UTG raise, unless it's in the first few levels or > 100BB effective. I think he probably had about 50BB's)
BB checks, I bet 3k (into a pot of 5.7k), BB calls.
TURN: Qc
BB checks, I check.
RIVER: Kd
BB checks. I bet 10K (Into pot of 11.7k), BB called. I showed, he mucked.
My Thoughts:
PRE_FLOP
A fairly wide open at this stage, but again the table was quite passive.
FLOP: Ad,9d,3s
Seemed like a good spot to semi-bluff. (Standard?)
TURN: Qc
He called the flop bet quite comfortably (other than the diamonds (that I had), it was a very dry board), so it felt like he probably had an Ace.
I wasn't confident that he would fold to a turn continuation bet, so I just checked behind. (I am sure there will be many people advocating betting another street here, however I decided, rightly or wrongly, once again, to take the more passive approach with my draw on the turn.)
RIVER: Kd
So we've got lucky and hit our flush. I decide on a big/polarising bet (10K), which he called.
ARE WE HAND HISTORIED OUT? SHALL I TAKE A BREAK FOR A FEW DAYS? PROBABLY ABOUT 4 MORE HANDS UNTIL THE END OF DAY 1, SO I COULD STOP THERE, AND MAYBE PICK UP DAY TWO AT A LATER DATE.
LET ME KNOW IF THIS IS STILL INTERESTING/USEFUL OR IF IT'S JUST MUCH OF THE SAME NOW?
Yeah hand 22 seemed standard so didn't feel the need to comment
In hand 23, this situation is a lot different from the previous draw we talked about since:
a) our draw isn't as strong. (less outs + not to the nuts, meaning there are some potential RIO)
b) villain's range for calling flop is likely stronger (UTG raise, A high board) - as such, fold equity will be less
Because our range is stronger from UTG, there is some argument to be made for bluffing turn but I think there are other hands we can still use in our range that are better candidates to bluff the turn. Here, I would do as you did most of the time and opt to realise my equity with a view of potentially bluffing river if villain checks to us.
Yeah hand 22 seemed standard so didn't feel the need to comment In hand 23, this situation is a lot different from the previous draw we talked about since: a) our draw isn't as strong. (less outs + not to the nuts, meaning there are some potential RIO) b) villain's range for calling flop is likely stronger (UTG raise, A high board) - as such, fold equity will be less Because our range is stronger from UTG, there is some argument to be made for bluffing turn but I think there are other hands we can still use in our range that are better candidates to bluff the turn. Here, I would do as you did most of the time and opt to realise my equity with a view of potentially bluffing river if villain checks to us. Posted by F_Ivanovic
Cheers for this Ivan. Not that it makes a massive difference, but my open was UTG+2 not UTG. But still early table position, so your points are valid.
I think if I missed the river, I would have just given up, but this was probably due to some "live factors."
The notes in my recording suggested "confidence that he would call a big river bet."
So to this end, if I missed the river, I'm sure I would have just given up, but I had the advantage of being there.
Yeah, it's possible bluffing river is going to bad particularly with your read. Theory wise we should be bluffing due to it being the bottom of our range (every other hand we have has some SD value) but in practice when playing vs bad unknowns we can exploitatively decide to never bluff (something I wish I didn't always forget!)
haha, I believe so :P Most of the hadns we disagree on though is just me nit-picking to create an interesting discussion about different lines. Only hand I've really felt strongly about is the AdTd hand which is the hand you said you were coming round to my thinking anyway
Yeah, it's possible bluffing river is going to bad particularly with your read. Theory wise we should be bluffing due to it being the bottom of our range (every other hand we have has some SD value) but in practice when playing vs bad unknowns we can exploitatively decide to never bluff (something I wish I didn't always forget!) haha, I believe so :P Most of the hands we disagree on though is just me nit-picking to create an interesting discussion about different lines. Only hand I've really felt strongly about is the AdTd hand which is the hand you said you were coming round to my thinking anyway Posted by F_Ivanovic
Yes I think your feedback, and the way you open things up for discussion is very good. So I am very happy with your replies/comments. I think it's useful for us both, and others.
I would not normally bet as large on the river, as your betting pattern screams flush. That said, I take your point re being there and reading the actual (as opposed to typical) opponent.
Please continue with what is a most interesting thread.
Keep going, just some of the hands have been fairly standard spots. Last hand for example, played perfectly IMO. Dont quite agree its that loose an open tbh as we cant always open with just a strong range and we are still fairly deep and its the kind of hand we can easily fold if we meet aggression.
Again, river is an easy large bet spot. Particulary with your rep and the way things have gone last few hands it makes it more likely you could have a bluff here. Betting smaller only realy garentees an Ace calling. Some weaker pairs may fold to a mid size bet thinking we want a call and a bigger bet makes it more suspicious so it opens more Kx and Qx hands to call.
Please keep them coming Graham. I am really enjoying the analysis that you and the other contributers are explaining. It's a great learning resource. Posted by thisltedu
I can only assume that I was getting tired of recording every hand I played, as the details on the recording for these 5 hands was virtually non-existent.
Effectively, I had 4 hands where I raised and C-bet. 3 coming off and one not, however I got my chip stack up to 114K.
Following that I bust a short stack with a set of 9's against his pocket Kings. (I said in the recording that I would remember the pre flop details etc), but 4 months down the line and I haven't the foggiest, so apologies for that.
Button (quite tight guy), raises to 2,800, I 3bet to 8K in the SB, Ryan Spittles in the BB makes it 22K. Button folds, I fold.
Ryan said I could choose a card to turn over, so I did. I turned over a Jack. I suspect he had two of them. :=)
My Thoughts:
PRE_FLOP
Personally I would much rather 3bet a button raise at this stage with 55 than call or fold. (I'm sure some people will disagree, but my VPIP-PFR stats/style at this stage, doesn't really allow for calling in this spot.)
When Ryan 4bet, I considered that I didn't have the odds to set mine, so I folded. As unless I hit a set, it's so hard to play post flop against a quality player like Ryan and there are also so many over-pairs in his range.
I appreciate you don't like calling, but "quite tight guy" looks key here. For me, it is call-I would prefer folding to raising, as I feel that there will be more reraising (by 1 of the 2 remaining players) than folding in this spot.
I think this is one where we have to agree to differ. With just Ryan to act after me, I think I will take the pot down pre flop often enough to make 3betting viable.
If my 3bet is called, a c-bet will succeed on a lot of flops
This spot is completely down to styles imo. Calling would be, I'm sure, the most common play, however for my "style" it is not even a consideration.
This may appear "wrong" to some people, however, I am completely happy with how I played this hand.
So whilst I take peoples thoughts onboard, years of experience of these situations has determined, that for someone with my style, this is the best play in this spot.
Having said the above, I do also believe that for people who have differing styles, calling may best for them.
Im again with you. I think this is firmly in the fold or reraise catagory. Not only is it another one of these hands where if we get 4 bet we can easily fold this and it has the added benefit that we are raising from a precieved strong position, ie the SB. We are saying we have a hand we want to play even though we know we will be OOP so therefore we must be very strong. Its a position where we are rarely going to get bluff 4 bet and we can as Graham said take it down a lot of the time with a C bet and if we do happen to flop a set then it will be so disguised we could do serious damage to an opponents stack.
Im again with you. I think this is firmly in the fold or reraise catagory. Not only is it another one of these hands where if we get 4 bet we can easily fold this and it has the added benefit that we are raising from a precieved strong position, ie the SB. We are saying we have a hand we want to play even though we know we will be OOP so therefore we must be very strong. Its a position where we are rarely going to get bluff 4 bet and we can as Graham said take it down a lot of the time with a C bet and if we do happen to flop a set then it will be so disguised we could do serious damage to an opponents stack. Posted by CraigSG1
That's the beauty of poker-there is often no "right" way to play. I am not worried about a 4-bet bluff-I'm worried about any bet when I am likely to have a 2-outer out of position v a tight player whose range is probably better than 5 5 and someone as skilled as Mr Spittles. Looks spewy to me
Comments
Blinds 500/1000 Antie 100
Please continue with what is a most interesting thread.
Phil
Blinds 600/1200 Antie 200
Blinds 600/1200 Antie 200