The situation we are currently in is that assuming The PM can get The Withdrawal Agreement through Parliament, is that we will leave in March before any trade negotiations take place.
A Blind Brexit.
I couldn't be happy with that.
Any Government assurances on any deal we might get, could not be guaranteed, as negotiations would follow.
The obvious drawbacks of a Norway plus deal, are that we wouldn't save much money, accepting Freedom of Movement will not be popular with many people, I don't include myself in this, and a lack of influence.
The Norway option does not include Agriculture, or Fisheries. I assume this would mean tariffs. This is likely to mean selling less of the associated products into Europe. Our fishermen are keen to stop EU people fishing in our waters, but will probably kick off about tariffs. So many people want to have their cake and eat it.
Farmers currently get an EU subsidy which would end, so I don't suppose for a minute that they would be happy. Losing subsidies and facing tariffs would hardly be encouraging.
So my feeling on it is that Norway Plus is quite close to where we are now. Too close for some people. However we would gain so much more from remaining as members.
The problem remains that we have to pass The Withdrawal Agreement before going to Norway, Canada, or anywhere else.
And, for all that, the fundamentals are quite simple. The point about the Single Market is that border checks have been eliminated. The common rules are monitored by relevant national authorities and there is mutual recognition of standards. Thus, if you so desire, you can load a truck with grommets in Glasgow and ship them all the way to Alexandroupoli on the Turkish border, with just the occasional document check.
But the moment we leave the EU, this stops. Your component manufacturer may still comply with exactly the same standards, but if the product requires independent testing , any testing houses and the regulatory agencies are no longer recognised. The consignment has no valid paperwork. And, without it, it must be subject to border checks, visual inspection and physical testing.
What that means in practice is that the customs inspector detains your shipment and takes samples to send to an approved testing house (one for the inspector, one for the office pool, one for the stevedores and one for the lab is often the case). Your container inspection is typically about £700 and detention costs about £80 a day for the ten days or so it will take to get your results back. Add the testing fee and you’re paying an extra £2,000 to deliver a container into the EU.
Apart from the costs, the delays are highly damaging. Many European industries have highly integrated supply chains, relying on components shipped from multiple countries right across Europe, working to a "just in time" regime. If even a small number of consignments are delayed, the whole system starts to snarl up.
Brexit could be delayed in short-term to ensure deal: Andrea Leadsom
The UK may seek to delay leaving the EU “by a couple of weeks” in order to get Brexit legislation through Parliament, Commons Leader Andrea Leadsom has suggested. The prominent Cabinet Brexiteer insisted it would be “feasible” to remain in the bloc for a time after the scheduled exit date of March 29.
He is not exactly famous for overpaying his employees.
Hardly alone in that .
So maybe he should have said, democracy equals prosperity, unless you have a mean boss.
Prosperity is relative , If as a democratic country we compared our general standard of living to that of living in an autocratic society we might view ourselves as being more prosperous.
"Democratic countries are richer – the exception are fossil-fuel exporters The scatter plot below shows the latest observations for GDP per capita and the Polity IV score. No country that is an autocracy (score between -10 and -6) has an income of more than 15,000 international-$ if it is not heavily dependent on fossil-fuel exports. Countries that are autocratically ruled and do not have the option to export fossil fuels are poor."
"Democratic countries are healthier As a measure for the health situation in a country I am looking at child mortality.
What we can see from the scatter plot below is that autocratic countries rarely have a healthy population. Few autocratic countries achieved a child mortality below 10 per 1,000. Democratic countries – Polity score of 7 or higher – on the other hand often have child mortality rates below 10 or even 5 per 1,000.
This cross section at one point in time does not tell us anything about the length of time that a country was ruled by a democratic government – for this we have to study the link between democratisation and health in more detail and more carefully."
He is not exactly famous for overpaying his employees.
Hardly alone in that .
So maybe he should have said, democracy equals prosperity, unless you have a mean boss.
Prosperity is relative , If as a democratic country we compared our general standard of living to that of living in an autocratic society we might view ourselves as being more prosperous.
"Democratic countries are richer – the exception are fossil-fuel exporters The scatter plot below shows the latest observations for GDP per capita and the Polity IV score. No country that is an autocracy (score between -10 and -6) has an income of more than 15,000 international-$ if it is not heavily dependent on fossil-fuel exports. Countries that are autocratically ruled and do not have the option to export fossil fuels are poor."
"Democratic countries are healthier As a measure for the health situation in a country I am looking at child mortality.
What we can see from the scatter plot below is that autocratic countries rarely have a healthy population. Few autocratic countries achieved a child mortality below 10 per 1,000. Democratic countries – Polity score of 7 or higher – on the other hand often have child mortality rates below 10 or even 5 per 1,000.
This cross section at one point in time does not tell us anything about the length of time that a country was ruled by a democratic government – for this we have to study the link between democratisation and health in more detail and more carefully."
So in essence , you can't just dismiss the notion that democracy aids prosperity ...and back to Brexit
I think that this is a ridiculous argument. The man is an idiot. He was purely referring to this country. He was debating Brexit. The argument above cant be applied to this country, as we are already a democracy.
He is clearly making out that we are not a democracy, as we are ruled by The EU. He is inferring that we will become a democracy on leaving. This is absolute nonsense as only 7% of our Primary Legislation has come from The EU.
A much more serious argument would be that the gap between the haves and the have nots is wider than ever before.
You have to go back 50 years to find a period where we paid more tax than we are currently paying.
Many people would see the fact that the 26 richest people in the world have more money than the poorest 50%, as obscene.
We are in the 11th year of austerity measures imposed by successive Tory Governments, under which many people are still suffering, and feel forgotten about.
None of this has anything to do with the fact that we are a democracy, The EU, or the current Brexit mess.
Only that Brexit may well have happened because of these circumstances.
I cant see how you could possibly think that the above article was at all relevant.
Have you even looked at the tape and seen how stupid he was made to look.
This should happen more often.
These silly Brexiteers appear on the media every day, spouting off about a no deal Brexit, and their plan that clearly doesn't work.
I also find it incredible that this red herring is the point that you would wish to debate out of all the nonsense that he spouted.
How could leaving The EU with no deal, create prosperity. Being a democracy will not have a bearing. Our economy would suffer badly.
This will leave us with less prosperity, whilst still being a democracy.
He was saying we should have walked out of the negotiations, forgotten about The Brits leaving in The EU, The EU citizens living here, and the Irish Border. That would have been a very cunning plan.
He is not exactly famous for overpaying his employees.
you are obviously not a business minded person, if you think he should overpay his employees.
You don't know anything about me.
I know you want to stay in Europe, and dont believe in the Peoples vote. I know you have an unhealthy obsession with Mr Martin. I have more if you would like to hear?
He is not exactly famous for overpaying his employees.
Hardly alone in that .
So maybe he should have said, democracy equals prosperity, unless you have a mean boss.
Prosperity is relative , If as a democratic country we compared our general standard of living to that of living in an autocratic society we might view ourselves as being more prosperous.
"Democratic countries are richer – the exception are fossil-fuel exporters The scatter plot below shows the latest observations for GDP per capita and the Polity IV score. No country that is an autocracy (score between -10 and -6) has an income of more than 15,000 international-$ if it is not heavily dependent on fossil-fuel exports. Countries that are autocratically ruled and do not have the option to export fossil fuels are poor."
"Democratic countries are healthier As a measure for the health situation in a country I am looking at child mortality.
What we can see from the scatter plot below is that autocratic countries rarely have a healthy population. Few autocratic countries achieved a child mortality below 10 per 1,000. Democratic countries – Polity score of 7 or higher – on the other hand often have child mortality rates below 10 or even 5 per 1,000.
This cross section at one point in time does not tell us anything about the length of time that a country was ruled by a democratic government – for this we have to study the link between democratisation and health in more detail and more carefully."
So in essence , you can't just dismiss the notion that democracy aids prosperity ...and back to Brexit
I think that this is a ridiculous argument. The man is an idiot. He was purely referring to this country. He was debating Brexit. The argument above cant be applied to this country, as we are already a democracy.
He is clearly making out that we are not a democracy, as we are ruled by The EU. He is inferring that we will become a democracy on leaving. This is absolute nonsense as only 7% of our Primary Legislation has come from The EU.
A much more serious argument would be that the gap between the haves and the have nots is wider than ever before.
You have to go back 50 years to find a period where we paid more tax than we are currently paying.
Many people would see the fact that the 26 richest people in the world have more money than the poorest 50%, as obscene.
We are in the 11th year of austerity measures imposed by successive Tory Governments, under which many people are still suffering, and feel forgotten about.
None of this has anything to do with the fact that we are a democracy, The EU, or the current Brexit mess.
Only that Brexit may well have happened because of these circumstances.
I cant see how you could possibly think that the above article was at all relevant.
Have you even looked at the tape and seen how stupid he was made to look.
This should happen more often.
These silly Brexiteers appear on the media every day, spouting off about a no deal Brexit, and their plan that clearly doesn't work.
I also find it incredible that this red herring is the point that you would wish to debate out of all the nonsense that he spouted.
How could leaving The EU with no deal, create prosperity. Being a democracy will not have a bearing. Our economy would suffer badly.
This will leave us with less prosperity, whilst still being a democracy.
He was saying we should have walked out of the negotiations, forgotten about The Brits leaving in The EU, The EU citizens living here, and the Irish Border. That would have been a very cunning plan.
I was actually addressing your uneducated open ended question " since when did democracy equal prosperity? " ....not his . Please do your best to keep up . As far as the bolded bit is concerned , calling a successfull business man an idiot because his views differ from yours is just plain ignorant !
I think it is absolutely preposterous to suggest that taking no deal off the table would weaken our negotiating position in any way. From the start both sides wanted a deal. Both sides still want a deal. Those on The EU side have access to the British media. They will have seen a troupe of MPs commenting on how disastrous a no deal would be for us. It would be disastrous for both sides. Everyone except the rabid Brexiteers know that. They want to sell us their stuff, but not at all costs. I don't think that they will compromise their fundamental principles. People suggesting this, just don't have a grasp.
The Irish Border is holding everything up, that is our fault. It has nothing to do with The EU not wanting to give us a deal.
He is not exactly famous for overpaying his employees.
you are obviously not a business minded person, if you think he should overpay his employees.
You don't know anything about me.
I know you want to stay in Europe, and dont believe in the Peoples vote. I know you have an unhealthy obsession with Mr Martin. I have more if you would like to hear?
He is not exactly famous for overpaying his employees.
you are obviously not a business minded person, if you think he should overpay his employees.
You don't know anything about me.
I know you want to stay in Europe, and dont believe in the Peoples vote. I know you have an unhealthy obsession with Mr Martin. I have more if you would like to hear?
go on then
You also like to insult People who have opposing views.
Comments
He has provided completely ineffective leadership.
If he was any good Labour would be at least 20 points clear in the polls.
He has completely wasted an excellent opportunity, and let the country down, almost as badly as The Tories.
A Blind Brexit.
I couldn't be happy with that.
Any Government assurances on any deal we might get, could not be guaranteed, as negotiations would follow.
The obvious drawbacks of a Norway plus deal, are that we wouldn't save much money, accepting Freedom of Movement will not be popular with many people, I don't include myself in this, and a lack of influence.
The Norway option does not include Agriculture, or Fisheries. I assume this would mean tariffs. This is likely to mean selling less of the associated products into Europe. Our fishermen are keen to stop EU people fishing in our waters, but will probably kick off about tariffs. So many people want to have their cake and eat it.
Farmers currently get an EU subsidy which would end, so I don't suppose for a minute that they would be happy. Losing subsidies and facing tariffs would hardly be encouraging.
So my feeling on it is that Norway Plus is quite close to where we are now. Too close for some people. However we would gain so much more from remaining as members.
The problem remains that we have to pass The Withdrawal Agreement before going to Norway, Canada, or anywhere else.
Have a listen to this nonsense.
This was one year ago.
And, for all that, the fundamentals are quite simple. The point about the Single Market is that border checks have been eliminated. The common rules are monitored by relevant national authorities and there is mutual recognition of standards. Thus, if you so desire, you can load a truck with grommets in Glasgow and ship them all the way to Alexandroupoli on the Turkish border, with just the occasional document check.
But the moment we leave the EU, this stops. Your component manufacturer may still comply with exactly the same standards, but if the product requires independent testing , any testing houses and the regulatory agencies are no longer recognised. The consignment has no valid paperwork. And, without it, it must be subject to border checks, visual inspection and physical testing.
What that means in practice is that the customs inspector detains your shipment and takes samples to send to an approved testing house (one for the inspector, one for the office pool, one for the stevedores and one for the lab is often the case). Your container inspection is typically about £700 and detention costs about £80 a day for the ten days or so it will take to get your results back. Add the testing fee and you’re paying an extra £2,000 to deliver a container into the EU.
Apart from the costs, the delays are highly damaging. Many European industries have highly integrated supply chains, relying on components shipped from multiple countries right across Europe, working to a "just in time" regime. If even a small number of consignments are delayed, the whole system starts to snarl up.
http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128
The UK may seek to delay leaving the EU “by a couple of weeks” in order to get Brexit legislation through Parliament, Commons Leader Andrea Leadsom has suggested.
The prominent Cabinet Brexiteer insisted it would be “feasible” to remain in the bloc for a time after the scheduled exit date of March 29.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/brexit-could-be-delayed-in-short-term-to-ensure-deal-andrea-leadsom/ar-BBSJFol?ocid=spartandhp
"Democratic countries are richer – the exception are fossil-fuel exporters
The scatter plot below shows the latest observations for GDP per capita and the Polity IV score. No country that is an autocracy (score between -10 and -6) has an income of more than 15,000 international-$ if it is not heavily dependent on fossil-fuel exports. Countries that are autocratically ruled and do not have the option to export fossil fuels are poor."
"Democratic countries are healthier
As a measure for the health situation in a country I am looking at child mortality.
What we can see from the scatter plot below is that autocratic countries rarely have a healthy population. Few autocratic countries achieved a child mortality below 10 per 1,000. Democratic countries – Polity score of 7 or higher – on the other hand often have child mortality rates below 10 or even 5 per 1,000.
This cross section at one point in time does not tell us anything about the length of time that a country was ruled by a democratic government – for this we have to study the link between democratisation and health in more detail and more carefully."
Just a couple of excerpts above from this article >>>>https://ourworldindata.org/democracy
So in essence , you can't just dismiss the notion that democracy aids prosperity ...and back to Brexit
The man is an idiot.
He was purely referring to this country.
He was debating Brexit.
The argument above cant be applied to this country, as we are already a democracy.
He is clearly making out that we are not a democracy, as we are ruled by The EU. He is inferring that we will become a democracy on leaving. This is absolute nonsense as only 7% of our Primary Legislation has come from The EU.
A much more serious argument would be that the gap between the haves and the have nots is wider than ever before.
You have to go back 50 years to find a period where we paid more tax than we are currently paying.
Many people would see the fact that the 26 richest people in the world have more money than the poorest 50%, as obscene.
We are in the 11th year of austerity measures imposed by successive Tory Governments, under which many people are still suffering, and feel forgotten about.
None of this has anything to do with the fact that we are a democracy, The EU, or the current Brexit mess.
Only that Brexit may well have happened because of these circumstances.
I cant see how you could possibly think that the above article was at all relevant.
Have you even looked at the tape and seen how stupid he was made to look.
This should happen more often.
These silly Brexiteers appear on the media every day, spouting off about a no deal Brexit, and their plan that clearly doesn't work.
I also find it incredible that this red herring is the point that you would wish to debate out of all the nonsense that he spouted.
How could leaving The EU with no deal, create prosperity. Being a democracy will not have a bearing. Our economy would suffer badly.
This will leave us with less prosperity, whilst still being a democracy.
He was saying we should have walked out of the negotiations, forgotten about The Brits leaving in The EU, The EU citizens living here, and the Irish Border. That would have been a very cunning plan.
What do you think of no deal then?
He is not exactly famous for overpaying his employees.
you are obviously not a business minded person, if you think he should overpay his employees.
You don't know anything about me.
I know you want to stay in Europe, and dont believe in the Peoples vote.
I know you have an unhealthy obsession with Mr Martin.
I have more if you would like to hear?
As far as the bolded bit is concerned , calling a successfull business man an idiot because his views differ from yours is just plain ignorant !
From the start both sides wanted a deal.
Both sides still want a deal.
Those on The EU side have access to the British media.
They will have seen a troupe of MPs commenting on how disastrous a no deal would be for us.
It would be disastrous for both sides.
Everyone except the rabid Brexiteers know that.
They want to sell us their stuff, but not at all costs.
I don't think that they will compromise their fundamental principles.
People suggesting this, just don't have a grasp.
The Irish Border is holding everything up, that is our fault. It has nothing to do with The EU not wanting to give us a deal.
You don't know anything about me.
I know you want to stay in Europe, and dont believe in the Peoples vote.
I know you have an unhealthy obsession with Mr Martin.
I have more if you would like to hear?
go on then
I know you want to stay in Europe, and dont believe in the Peoples vote.
I know you have an unhealthy obsession with Mr Martin.
I have more if you would like to hear?
go on then
You also like to insult People who have opposing views.