Riots and right wing extremist groups getting a leverage would be the reality of a 2nd referendum .
That's an opinion that I wouldn't completely share. If there were riots, which I don't buy, then it still wouldn't be a reason not to do the right thing. If Parliament decided that a referendum was the right thing to do, then it should happen. To argue that we shouldn't because we might have a couple of riots, is just wrong.
Would we expect our politicians to alter decisions in the future due to the possibility of riots?
The argument against isn't because of rioting ( that will be a by product), but because apart from anything else it completely smacks in the face of democracy . This government promised to carry out the wishes of the public on the referendum vote , and re presenting it to the nation will disaffect generations to come and there will be zero trust in politics and politicians as a whole . If you naively think that the majority of the people who voted leave , would just sit back and say " oh , ok , 2nd referendum , no worries " , then you're deluded. Like I've said a million times on here , never going to happen anyway , thankfully .
The majority will be unhappy with the result.
Is that democracy?
No idea what you mean . The majority voted to leave in the referendum , any polling that suggests subsequently that has changed , is merely speculation unless it was proved otherwise in a rerun . Lets assume ( for arguments sake) there was a change in mood over the issue with leave voters , I would maintain that is entirely down to the complete ineffectiveness of this government , rather than the principles of Brexit itself .
I pretty much covered my answer to this in my last post.
Nope , people voted for leave or stay ....no deal wasn't an option . Nor would that have been in most peoples heads as an option.
Riots and right wing extremist groups getting a leverage would be the reality of a 2nd referendum .
That's an opinion that I wouldn't completely share. If there were riots, which I don't buy, then it still wouldn't be a reason not to do the right thing. If Parliament decided that a referendum was the right thing to do, then it should happen. To argue that we shouldn't because we might have a couple of riots, is just wrong.
Would we expect our politicians to alter decisions in the future due to the possibility of riots?
The argument against isn't because of rioting ( that will be a by product), but because apart from anything else it completely smacks in the face of democracy . This government promised to carry out the wishes of the public on the referendum vote , and re presenting it to the nation will disaffect generations to come and there will be zero trust in politics and politicians as a whole . If you naively think that the majority of the people who voted leave , would just sit back and say " oh , ok , 2nd referendum , no worries " , then you're deluded. Like I've said a million times on here , never going to happen anyway , thankfully .
The majority will be unhappy with the result.
Is that democracy?
Yes. Democracy relates to votes, not happiness.
Ok lets put it another way. The majority will say that the outcome is not what they voted for.
I agree. But that is going to be true for every option. And you cannot "unask" the question from the last referendum
The fact that you cant unask the question, is another very good reason to ask a better question.
Riots and right wing extremist groups getting a leverage would be the reality of a 2nd referendum .
That's an opinion that I wouldn't completely share. If there were riots, which I don't buy, then it still wouldn't be a reason not to do the right thing. If Parliament decided that a referendum was the right thing to do, then it should happen. To argue that we shouldn't because we might have a couple of riots, is just wrong.
Would we expect our politicians to alter decisions in the future due to the possibility of riots?
The argument against isn't because of rioting ( that will be a by product), but because apart from anything else it completely smacks in the face of democracy . This government promised to carry out the wishes of the public on the referendum vote , and re presenting it to the nation will disaffect generations to come and there will be zero trust in politics and politicians as a whole . If you naively think that the majority of the people who voted leave , would just sit back and say " oh , ok , 2nd referendum , no worries " , then you're deluded. Like I've said a million times on here , never going to happen anyway , thankfully .
The majority will be unhappy with the result.
Is that democracy?
No idea what you mean . The majority voted to leave in the referendum , any polling that suggests subsequently that has changed , is merely speculation unless it was proved otherwise in a rerun . Lets assume ( for arguments sake) there was a change in mood over the issue with leave voters , I would maintain that is entirely down to the complete ineffectiveness of this government , rather than the principles of Brexit itself .
I pretty much covered my answer to this in my last post.
Nope , people voted for leave or stay ....no deal wasn't an option . Nor would that have been in most peoples heads as an option.
You are completely missing the point. People are interviewed daily and say that their leave vote meant to leave with no deal. Others will say that their vote was to leave with the same benefits. So just for the sake of argument if you said that the leave vote was a 50/50 split between the two. Under those circumstances only 26% of the electorate will be able to claim that the result is what they voted for.
Riots and right wing extremist groups getting a leverage would be the reality of a 2nd referendum .
That's an opinion that I wouldn't completely share. If there were riots, which I don't buy, then it still wouldn't be a reason not to do the right thing. If Parliament decided that a referendum was the right thing to do, then it should happen. To argue that we shouldn't because we might have a couple of riots, is just wrong.
Would we expect our politicians to alter decisions in the future due to the possibility of riots?
The argument against isn't because of rioting ( that will be a by product), but because apart from anything else it completely smacks in the face of democracy . This government promised to carry out the wishes of the public on the referendum vote , and re presenting it to the nation will disaffect generations to come and there will be zero trust in politics and politicians as a whole . If you naively think that the majority of the people who voted leave , would just sit back and say " oh , ok , 2nd referendum , no worries " , then you're deluded. Like I've said a million times on here , never going to happen anyway , thankfully .
The majority will be unhappy with the result.
Is that democracy?
No idea what you mean . The majority voted to leave in the referendum , any polling that suggests subsequently that has changed , is merely speculation unless it was proved otherwise in a rerun . Lets assume ( for arguments sake) there was a change in mood over the issue with leave voters , I would maintain that is entirely down to the complete ineffectiveness of this government , rather than the principles of Brexit itself .
I pretty much covered my answer to this in my last post.
Nope , people voted for leave or stay ....no deal wasn't an option . Nor would that have been in most peoples heads as an option.
No deal is now much more popular than the PMs deal.
Riots and right wing extremist groups getting a leverage would be the reality of a 2nd referendum .
That's an opinion that I wouldn't completely share. If there were riots, which I don't buy, then it still wouldn't be a reason not to do the right thing. If Parliament decided that a referendum was the right thing to do, then it should happen. To argue that we shouldn't because we might have a couple of riots, is just wrong.
Would we expect our politicians to alter decisions in the future due to the possibility of riots?
The argument against isn't because of rioting ( that will be a by product), but because apart from anything else it completely smacks in the face of democracy . This government promised to carry out the wishes of the public on the referendum vote , and re presenting it to the nation will disaffect generations to come and there will be zero trust in politics and politicians as a whole . If you naively think that the majority of the people who voted leave , would just sit back and say " oh , ok , 2nd referendum , no worries " , then you're deluded. Like I've said a million times on here , never going to happen anyway , thankfully .
The majority will be unhappy with the result.
Is that democracy?
No idea what you mean . The majority voted to leave in the referendum , any polling that suggests subsequently that has changed , is merely speculation unless it was proved otherwise in a rerun . Lets assume ( for arguments sake) there was a change in mood over the issue with leave voters , I would maintain that is entirely down to the complete ineffectiveness of this government , rather than the principles of Brexit itself .
I pretty much covered my answer to this in my last post.
Nope , people voted for leave or stay ....no deal wasn't an option . Nor would that have been in most peoples heads as an option.
No deal is now much more popular than the PMs deal.
Riots and right wing extremist groups getting a leverage would be the reality of a 2nd referendum .
That's an opinion that I wouldn't completely share. If there were riots, which I don't buy, then it still wouldn't be a reason not to do the right thing. If Parliament decided that a referendum was the right thing to do, then it should happen. To argue that we shouldn't because we might have a couple of riots, is just wrong.
Would we expect our politicians to alter decisions in the future due to the possibility of riots?
The argument against isn't because of rioting ( that will be a by product), but because apart from anything else it completely smacks in the face of democracy . This government promised to carry out the wishes of the public on the referendum vote , and re presenting it to the nation will disaffect generations to come and there will be zero trust in politics and politicians as a whole . If you naively think that the majority of the people who voted leave , would just sit back and say " oh , ok , 2nd referendum , no worries " , then you're deluded. Like I've said a million times on here , never going to happen anyway , thankfully .
The majority will be unhappy with the result.
Is that democracy?
No idea what you mean . The majority voted to leave in the referendum , any polling that suggests subsequently that has changed , is merely speculation unless it was proved otherwise in a rerun . Lets assume ( for arguments sake) there was a change in mood over the issue with leave voters , I would maintain that is entirely down to the complete ineffectiveness of this government , rather than the principles of Brexit itself .
I pretty much covered my answer to this in my last post.
Nope , people voted for leave or stay ....no deal wasn't an option . Nor would that have been in most peoples heads as an option.
You are completely missing the point. People are interviewed daily and say that their leave vote meant to leave with no deal. Others will say that their vote was to leave with the same benefits. So just for the sake of argument if you said that the leave vote was a 50/50 split between the two. Under those circumstances only 26% of the electorate will be able to claim that the result is what they voted for.
Believe all the polls you want . The majority of people who voted leave , just wanted to leave and all of this leaving under different perameters wasn't even on their radars ...according to my own poll of 1! You might wish to overcomplicate things just to have an argument , but the simple choice was leave or remain .
Riots and right wing extremist groups getting a leverage would be the reality of a 2nd referendum .
That's an opinion that I wouldn't completely share. If there were riots, which I don't buy, then it still wouldn't be a reason not to do the right thing. If Parliament decided that a referendum was the right thing to do, then it should happen. To argue that we shouldn't because we might have a couple of riots, is just wrong.
Would we expect our politicians to alter decisions in the future due to the possibility of riots?
The argument against isn't because of rioting ( that will be a by product), but because apart from anything else it completely smacks in the face of democracy . This government promised to carry out the wishes of the public on the referendum vote , and re presenting it to the nation will disaffect generations to come and there will be zero trust in politics and politicians as a whole . If you naively think that the majority of the people who voted leave , would just sit back and say " oh , ok , 2nd referendum , no worries " , then you're deluded. Like I've said a million times on here , never going to happen anyway , thankfully .
The majority will be unhappy with the result.
Is that democracy?
No idea what you mean . The majority voted to leave in the referendum , any polling that suggests subsequently that has changed , is merely speculation unless it was proved otherwise in a rerun . Lets assume ( for arguments sake) there was a change in mood over the issue with leave voters , I would maintain that is entirely down to the complete ineffectiveness of this government , rather than the principles of Brexit itself .
I pretty much covered my answer to this in my last post.
Nope , people voted for leave or stay ....no deal wasn't an option . Nor would that have been in most peoples heads as an option.
You are completely missing the point. People are interviewed daily and say that their leave vote meant to leave with no deal. Others will say that their vote was to leave with the same benefits. So just for the sake of argument if you said that the leave vote was a 50/50 split between the two. Under those circumstances only 26% of the electorate will be able to claim that the result is what they voted for.
You persist in cherry-picking the bits that suit your arguments, and continue to ignore the bits that don't.
Let's return to my 48% remain/26% Soft/26% no deal example.
You want a first past the post democracy, where you get to pick the runners and riders.
A bit like saying "at the next election, Labour must pick 2 candidates for every seat, 1 pro-Corbyn, i anti-, and just the 1 Tory. Ooh look, 500 Tory MPs." I knew Labour were unpopular-ignoring the fact that you just artificially halved their vote.
You don't want the type of democracy that says we remove the least popular option until 2 remain. Because in my example, the majority vote in favour of soft brexit, because the no deal would move over to the other Brexit. you know, a lot like the referendum we really did have, rather than the one you wish we had had.That is what is likely to happen in the next Tory leadership campaign.
You need to cease thinking that all Remainers are of 1 mind. Some people love the EU as it is. Others are deeply suspicious, but just think the economic benefits are worth it. And it is ignoring the fact that it is now likely that IF we become part of the EU again, we lose a lot of the special perks we once had. Euro anyone?
Democracy does not involve doing what is "best". It is carrying out what people vote for. Not denying that it has happened. Not insisting on a new vote until people give the "right" answer. And moving on as best as possible.
Riots and right wing extremist groups getting a leverage would be the reality of a 2nd referendum .
That's an opinion that I wouldn't completely share. If there were riots, which I don't buy, then it still wouldn't be a reason not to do the right thing. If Parliament decided that a referendum was the right thing to do, then it should happen. To argue that we shouldn't because we might have a couple of riots, is just wrong.
Would we expect our politicians to alter decisions in the future due to the possibility of riots?
The argument against isn't because of rioting ( that will be a by product), but because apart from anything else it completely smacks in the face of democracy . This government promised to carry out the wishes of the public on the referendum vote , and re presenting it to the nation will disaffect generations to come and there will be zero trust in politics and politicians as a whole . If you naively think that the majority of the people who voted leave , would just sit back and say " oh , ok , 2nd referendum , no worries " , then you're deluded. Like I've said a million times on here , never going to happen anyway , thankfully .
The majority will be unhappy with the result.
Is that democracy?
No idea what you mean . The majority voted to leave in the referendum , any polling that suggests subsequently that has changed , is merely speculation unless it was proved otherwise in a rerun . Lets assume ( for arguments sake) there was a change in mood over the issue with leave voters , I would maintain that is entirely down to the complete ineffectiveness of this government , rather than the principles of Brexit itself .
I pretty much covered my answer to this in my last post.
Nope , people voted for leave or stay ....no deal wasn't an option . Nor would that have been in most peoples heads as an option.
No deal is now much more popular than the PMs deal.
According to who ?
Brexit shock poll: Most Britons do NOT fear leaving EU with ... www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1038413/Brexit-poll... Brexit shock poll: Most Britons do NOT fear leaving EU with NO-DEAL MORE than half of Britons do not fear leaving the EU with a no-deal Brexit, a new poll has revealed. No deal Brexit now the most popular choice with voters, poll …
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6615265/No-deal... A poll by ICM (pictured) found that 28% of voters now back a no deal Brexit amid political deadlock in Westminster Just 8 per cent of the 2,046 people surveyed said they think Britain should push ... No Deal Brexit Polls News
Polls find nearly as many people want no-deal Brexit as a ... www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6586793/Polls... Voters are just as split on Brexit as the MPs! Polls find nearly as many people want no-deal as a referendum if May's plan is defeated, while others says she should try getting more out of the EU
Brexit: 'Very real' chance of Irish unity poll if no deal ... www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47170711 Several cabinet ministers have told the BBC a no-deal Brexit could lead to a vote on Irish unification. One senior minister said the prospect is "very real" and very much on the prime minister's ...
LISTEN TO THE PEOPLE! What YOUR area really thinks about no-deal Brexit - shock poll WITH just 60 days to go until the UK is scheduled to leave the European Union, the prospect of a no-deal Brexit ... What are the latest No Deal Brexit odds and what is the ... thesun.co.uk/news/8018307/brexit-no-deal-odds...
What is a No Deal Brexit, when could a deal with Brussels be ... www.thesun.co.uk/news/6820080/no-deal-brexit.. A poll by YouGov on January 14 revealed that 35 per cent of the British public think a No Deal Brexit is likely, 21 per cent thinks a failed deal will result in a second referendum, 12 per cent ...
Riots and right wing extremist groups getting a leverage would be the reality of a 2nd referendum .
That's an opinion that I wouldn't completely share. If there were riots, which I don't buy, then it still wouldn't be a reason not to do the right thing. If Parliament decided that a referendum was the right thing to do, then it should happen. To argue that we shouldn't because we might have a couple of riots, is just wrong.
Would we expect our politicians to alter decisions in the future due to the possibility of riots?
The argument against isn't because of rioting ( that will be a by product), but because apart from anything else it completely smacks in the face of democracy . This government promised to carry out the wishes of the public on the referendum vote , and re presenting it to the nation will disaffect generations to come and there will be zero trust in politics and politicians as a whole . If you naively think that the majority of the people who voted leave , would just sit back and say " oh , ok , 2nd referendum , no worries " , then you're deluded. Like I've said a million times on here , never going to happen anyway , thankfully .
The majority will be unhappy with the result.
Is that democracy?
No idea what you mean . The majority voted to leave in the referendum , any polling that suggests subsequently that has changed , is merely speculation unless it was proved otherwise in a rerun . Lets assume ( for arguments sake) there was a change in mood over the issue with leave voters , I would maintain that is entirely down to the complete ineffectiveness of this government , rather than the principles of Brexit itself .
I pretty much covered my answer to this in my last post.
Nope , people voted for leave or stay ....no deal wasn't an option . Nor would that have been in most peoples heads as an option.
You are completely missing the point. People are interviewed daily and say that their leave vote meant to leave with no deal. Others will say that their vote was to leave with the same benefits. So just for the sake of argument if you said that the leave vote was a 50/50 split between the two. Under those circumstances only 26% of the electorate will be able to claim that the result is what they voted for.
Believe all the polls you want . The majority of people who voted leave , just wanted to leave and all of this leaving under different perameters wasn't even on their radars ...according to my own poll of 1! You might wish to overcomplicate things just to have an argument , but the simple choice was leave or remain .
So if you were a leave voter, that voted on the basis you wanted to leave and have nothing more to do with the EU, and not do any deal. If we end up with a Norway deal, would you consider you had got what you voted for?
Riots and right wing extremist groups getting a leverage would be the reality of a 2nd referendum .
That's an opinion that I wouldn't completely share. If there were riots, which I don't buy, then it still wouldn't be a reason not to do the right thing. If Parliament decided that a referendum was the right thing to do, then it should happen. To argue that we shouldn't because we might have a couple of riots, is just wrong.
Would we expect our politicians to alter decisions in the future due to the possibility of riots?
The argument against isn't because of rioting ( that will be a by product), but because apart from anything else it completely smacks in the face of democracy . This government promised to carry out the wishes of the public on the referendum vote , and re presenting it to the nation will disaffect generations to come and there will be zero trust in politics and politicians as a whole . If you naively think that the majority of the people who voted leave , would just sit back and say " oh , ok , 2nd referendum , no worries " , then you're deluded. Like I've said a million times on here , never going to happen anyway , thankfully .
The majority will be unhappy with the result.
Is that democracy?
No idea what you mean . The majority voted to leave in the referendum , any polling that suggests subsequently that has changed , is merely speculation unless it was proved otherwise in a rerun . Lets assume ( for arguments sake) there was a change in mood over the issue with leave voters , I would maintain that is entirely down to the complete ineffectiveness of this government , rather than the principles of Brexit itself .
I pretty much covered my answer to this in my last post.
Nope , people voted for leave or stay ....no deal wasn't an option . Nor would that have been in most peoples heads as an option.
You are completely missing the point. People are interviewed daily and say that their leave vote meant to leave with no deal. Others will say that their vote was to leave with the same benefits. So just for the sake of argument if you said that the leave vote was a 50/50 split between the two. Under those circumstances only 26% of the electorate will be able to claim that the result is what they voted for.
Believe all the polls you want . The majority of people who voted leave , just wanted to leave and all of this leaving under different perameters wasn't even on their radars ...according to my own poll of 1! You might wish to overcomplicate things just to have an argument , but the simple choice was leave or remain .
So if you were a leave voter, that voted on the basis you wanted to leave and have nothing more to do with the EU, and not do any deal. If we end up with a Norway deal, would you consider you had got what you voted for?
Thats an if , not , a this is whats going to happen . And as you know I didnt vote.
Riots and right wing extremist groups getting a leverage would be the reality of a 2nd referendum .
That's an opinion that I wouldn't completely share. If there were riots, which I don't buy, then it still wouldn't be a reason not to do the right thing. If Parliament decided that a referendum was the right thing to do, then it should happen. To argue that we shouldn't because we might have a couple of riots, is just wrong.
Would we expect our politicians to alter decisions in the future due to the possibility of riots?
The argument against isn't because of rioting ( that will be a by product), but because apart from anything else it completely smacks in the face of democracy . This government promised to carry out the wishes of the public on the referendum vote , and re presenting it to the nation will disaffect generations to come and there will be zero trust in politics and politicians as a whole . If you naively think that the majority of the people who voted leave , would just sit back and say " oh , ok , 2nd referendum , no worries " , then you're deluded. Like I've said a million times on here , never going to happen anyway , thankfully .
The majority will be unhappy with the result.
Is that democracy?
No idea what you mean . The majority voted to leave in the referendum , any polling that suggests subsequently that has changed , is merely speculation unless it was proved otherwise in a rerun . Lets assume ( for arguments sake) there was a change in mood over the issue with leave voters , I would maintain that is entirely down to the complete ineffectiveness of this government , rather than the principles of Brexit itself .
I pretty much covered my answer to this in my last post.
Nope , people voted for leave or stay ....no deal wasn't an option . Nor would that have been in most peoples heads as an option.
You are completely missing the point. People are interviewed daily and say that their leave vote meant to leave with no deal. Others will say that their vote was to leave with the same benefits. So just for the sake of argument if you said that the leave vote was a 50/50 split between the two. Under those circumstances only 26% of the electorate will be able to claim that the result is what they voted for.
You persist in cherry-picking the bits that suit your arguments, and continue to ignore the bits that don't.
Let's return to my 48% remain/26% Soft/26% no deal example.
You want a first past the post democracy, where you get to pick the runners and riders.
A bit like saying "at the next election, Labour must pick 2 candidates for every seat, 1 pro-Corbyn, i anti-, and just the 1 Tory. Ooh look, 500 Tory MPs." I knew Labour were unpopular-ignoring the fact that you just artificially halved their vote.
You don't want the type of democracy that says we remove the least popular option until 2 remain. Because in my example, the majority vote in favour of soft brexit, because the no deal would move over to the other Brexit. you know, a lot like the referendum we really did have, rather than the one you wish we had had.That is what is likely to happen in the next Tory leadership campaign.
You need to cease thinking that all Remainers are of 1 mind. Some people love the EU as it is. Others are deeply suspicious, but just think the economic benefits are worth it. And it is ignoring the fact that it is now likely that IF we become part of the EU again, we lose a lot of the special perks we once had. Euro anyone?
Democracy does not involve doing what is "best". It is carrying out what people vote for. Not denying that it has happened. Not insisting on a new vote until people give the "right" answer. And moving on as best as possible.
I would be happy to see a referendum with two votes. The first with a vote on three options. The second, where the least popular option was eliminated, and a vote on the remaining two options.
Riots and right wing extremist groups getting a leverage would be the reality of a 2nd referendum .
That's an opinion that I wouldn't completely share. If there were riots, which I don't buy, then it still wouldn't be a reason not to do the right thing. If Parliament decided that a referendum was the right thing to do, then it should happen. To argue that we shouldn't because we might have a couple of riots, is just wrong.
Would we expect our politicians to alter decisions in the future due to the possibility of riots?
The argument against isn't because of rioting ( that will be a by product), but because apart from anything else it completely smacks in the face of democracy . This government promised to carry out the wishes of the public on the referendum vote , and re presenting it to the nation will disaffect generations to come and there will be zero trust in politics and politicians as a whole . If you naively think that the majority of the people who voted leave , would just sit back and say " oh , ok , 2nd referendum , no worries " , then you're deluded. Like I've said a million times on here , never going to happen anyway , thankfully .
The majority will be unhappy with the result.
Is that democracy?
No idea what you mean . The majority voted to leave in the referendum , any polling that suggests subsequently that has changed , is merely speculation unless it was proved otherwise in a rerun . Lets assume ( for arguments sake) there was a change in mood over the issue with leave voters , I would maintain that is entirely down to the complete ineffectiveness of this government , rather than the principles of Brexit itself .
I pretty much covered my answer to this in my last post.
Nope , people voted for leave or stay ....no deal wasn't an option . Nor would that have been in most peoples heads as an option.
You are completely missing the point. People are interviewed daily and say that their leave vote meant to leave with no deal. Others will say that their vote was to leave with the same benefits. So just for the sake of argument if you said that the leave vote was a 50/50 split between the two. Under those circumstances only 26% of the electorate will be able to claim that the result is what they voted for.
Believe all the polls you want . The majority of people who voted leave , just wanted to leave and all of this leaving under different perameters wasn't even on their radars ...according to my own poll of 1! You might wish to overcomplicate things just to have an argument , but the simple choice was leave or remain .
So if you were a leave voter, that voted on the basis you wanted to leave and have nothing more to do with the EU, and not do any deal. If we end up with a Norway deal, would you consider you had got what you voted for?
Thats an if , not , a this is whats going to happen . And as you know I didnt vote.
Riots and right wing extremist groups getting a leverage would be the reality of a 2nd referendum .
That's an opinion that I wouldn't completely share. If there were riots, which I don't buy, then it still wouldn't be a reason not to do the right thing. If Parliament decided that a referendum was the right thing to do, then it should happen. To argue that we shouldn't because we might have a couple of riots, is just wrong.
Would we expect our politicians to alter decisions in the future due to the possibility of riots?
The argument against isn't because of rioting ( that will be a by product), but because apart from anything else it completely smacks in the face of democracy . This government promised to carry out the wishes of the public on the referendum vote , and re presenting it to the nation will disaffect generations to come and there will be zero trust in politics and politicians as a whole . If you naively think that the majority of the people who voted leave , would just sit back and say " oh , ok , 2nd referendum , no worries " , then you're deluded. Like I've said a million times on here , never going to happen anyway , thankfully .
The majority will be unhappy with the result.
Is that democracy?
No idea what you mean . The majority voted to leave in the referendum , any polling that suggests subsequently that has changed , is merely speculation unless it was proved otherwise in a rerun . Lets assume ( for arguments sake) there was a change in mood over the issue with leave voters , I would maintain that is entirely down to the complete ineffectiveness of this government , rather than the principles of Brexit itself .
I pretty much covered my answer to this in my last post.
Nope , people voted for leave or stay ....no deal wasn't an option . Nor would that have been in most peoples heads as an option.
You are completely missing the point. People are interviewed daily and say that their leave vote meant to leave with no deal. Others will say that their vote was to leave with the same benefits. So just for the sake of argument if you said that the leave vote was a 50/50 split between the two. Under those circumstances only 26% of the electorate will be able to claim that the result is what they voted for.
Believe all the polls you want . The majority of people who voted leave , just wanted to leave and all of this leaving under different perameters wasn't even on their radars ...according to my own poll of 1! You might wish to overcomplicate things just to have an argument , but the simple choice was leave or remain .
So if you were a leave voter, that voted on the basis you wanted to leave and have nothing more to do with the EU, and not do any deal. If we end up with a Norway deal, would you consider you had got what you voted for?
Thats an if , not , a this is whats going to happen . And as you know I didnt vote.
Ok so take you out of it.
Ha , you'd like to ...unfortunately for you abstaining doesn't exclude one from having an opinion
well if all the polls say that at the moment it must be true After all polls never get it wrong do they .
I am not saying that the polls are always correct. Sometimes they point to trends. On many occasions they give a give a good idea of popularity.
I am not even saying that they are correct on this occasion. What I am saying as there are 4 leave options that have some popularity. If you reduce this to two as I will admit that at the time of the referendum not many people would have had a real idea of the options that would be available.
However many leave voters claim to have voted to leave with the intention of not having a deal.
Others will claim to have also voted to leave, but wanting to retain a close trading relationship with the EU.
Therefore if 50% of the leave voters were in favour of each option.
When we finally decide what we are doing, only 26% will be able to claim they got what they voted for.
This would not be a big selling point for democracy.
Riots and right wing extremist groups getting a leverage would be the reality of a 2nd referendum .
That's an opinion that I wouldn't completely share. If there were riots, which I don't buy, then it still wouldn't be a reason not to do the right thing. If Parliament decided that a referendum was the right thing to do, then it should happen. To argue that we shouldn't because we might have a couple of riots, is just wrong.
Would we expect our politicians to alter decisions in the future due to the possibility of riots?
The argument against isn't because of rioting ( that will be a by product), but because apart from anything else it completely smacks in the face of democracy . This government promised to carry out the wishes of the public on the referendum vote , and re presenting it to the nation will disaffect generations to come and there will be zero trust in politics and politicians as a whole . If you naively think that the majority of the people who voted leave , would just sit back and say " oh , ok , 2nd referendum , no worries " , then you're deluded. Like I've said a million times on here , never going to happen anyway , thankfully .
The majority will be unhappy with the result.
Is that democracy?
No idea what you mean . The majority voted to leave in the referendum , any polling that suggests subsequently that has changed , is merely speculation unless it was proved otherwise in a rerun . Lets assume ( for arguments sake) there was a change in mood over the issue with leave voters , I would maintain that is entirely down to the complete ineffectiveness of this government , rather than the principles of Brexit itself .
I pretty much covered my answer to this in my last post.
Nope , people voted for leave or stay ....no deal wasn't an option . Nor would that have been in most peoples heads as an option.
You are completely missing the point. People are interviewed daily and say that their leave vote meant to leave with no deal. Others will say that their vote was to leave with the same benefits. So just for the sake of argument if you said that the leave vote was a 50/50 split between the two. Under those circumstances only 26% of the electorate will be able to claim that the result is what they voted for.
Believe all the polls you want . The majority of people who voted leave , just wanted to leave and all of this leaving under different perameters wasn't even on their radars ...according to my own poll of 1! You might wish to overcomplicate things just to have an argument , but the simple choice was leave or remain .
So if you were a leave voter, that voted on the basis you wanted to leave and have nothing more to do with the EU, and not do any deal. If we end up with a Norway deal, would you consider you had got what you voted for?
Thats an if , not , a this is whats going to happen . And as you know I didnt vote.
Ok so take you out of it.
Ha , you'd like to ...unfortunately for you abstaining doesn't exclude one from having an opinion
Probably because the leave campaign, at best were clueless about what leaving the EU meant, or at worse lied about what it meant.
More than likely a bit of each tbh.
The majority of the voting public probably didn't know the intricacies of what they were voting for, why would they, they are regular people, not those that understand what is best for the county and wider world.
It was a bit like asking my Mother on the best way to play a Poker hand. She has never played Poker in her life, but her opinion via a referendum would carry the same weight as Phil Ivey or Phil Helmuth.
Some decisions we should leave for the elected "experts", that's why we have a government.
Anyway this is just a lighthearted tongue in cheek response, not something I'd go back and forth on. The referendum took place, and we should try and get as close to what was expected by the people. Although different "leave voters" had different expectations, so it's not clear.
FWIW, I don't think most people did know what they were voting for, beyond, "Leaving the EU", so the first part of the above statement, for a lot of voters, isn't quite true.
**** **** graham , great post , just shows for all our differences we are very similar
Riots and right wing extremist groups getting a leverage would be the reality of a 2nd referendum .
That's an opinion that I wouldn't completely share. If there were riots, which I don't buy, then it still wouldn't be a reason not to do the right thing. If Parliament decided that a referendum was the right thing to do, then it should happen. To argue that we shouldn't because we might have a couple of riots, is just wrong.
Would we expect our politicians to alter decisions in the future due to the possibility of riots?
The argument against isn't because of rioting ( that will be a by product), but because apart from anything else it completely smacks in the face of democracy . This government promised to carry out the wishes of the public on the referendum vote , and re presenting it to the nation will disaffect generations to come and there will be zero trust in politics and politicians as a whole . If you naively think that the majority of the people who voted leave , would just sit back and say " oh , ok , 2nd referendum , no worries " , then you're deluded. Like I've said a million times on here , never going to happen anyway , thankfully .
The majority will be unhappy with the result.
Is that democracy?
No idea what you mean . The majority voted to leave in the referendum , any polling that suggests subsequently that has changed , is merely speculation unless it was proved otherwise in a rerun . Lets assume ( for arguments sake) there was a change in mood over the issue with leave voters , I would maintain that is entirely down to the complete ineffectiveness of this government , rather than the principles of Brexit itself .
I pretty much covered my answer to this in my last post.
Nope , people voted for leave or stay ....no deal wasn't an option . Nor would that have been in most peoples heads as an option.
You are completely missing the point. People are interviewed daily and say that their leave vote meant to leave with no deal. Others will say that their vote was to leave with the same benefits. So just for the sake of argument if you said that the leave vote was a 50/50 split between the two. Under those circumstances only 26% of the electorate will be able to claim that the result is what they voted for.
You persist in cherry-picking the bits that suit your arguments, and continue to ignore the bits that don't.
Let's return to my 48% remain/26% Soft/26% no deal example.
You want a first past the post democracy, where you get to pick the runners and riders.
A bit like saying "at the next election, Labour must pick 2 candidates for every seat, 1 pro-Corbyn, i anti-, and just the 1 Tory. Ooh look, 500 Tory MPs." I knew Labour were unpopular-ignoring the fact that you just artificially halved their vote.
You don't want the type of democracy that says we remove the least popular option until 2 remain. Because in my example, the majority vote in favour of soft brexit, because the no deal would move over to the other Brexit. you know, a lot like the referendum we really did have, rather than the one you wish we had had.That is what is likely to happen in the next Tory leadership campaign.
You need to cease thinking that all Remainers are of 1 mind. Some people love the EU as it is. Others are deeply suspicious, but just think the economic benefits are worth it. And it is ignoring the fact that it is now likely that IF we become part of the EU again, we lose a lot of the special perks we once had. Euro anyone?
Democracy does not involve doing what is "best". It is carrying out what people vote for. Not denying that it has happened. Not insisting on a new vote until people give the "right" answer. And moving on as best as possible.
I will deny all cherry picking claims.
I am in favour of proportional representation.
I don't suppose Dominic Raab is the only leave voter that would rather remain than take a not very good deal.
Maintaining our existing benefits is another good reason for a referendum.
There are many good reasons to have a referendum. There is no point in going through them all again. Providing a solution to the current mess is a really good one.
Comments
People are interviewed daily and say that their leave vote meant to leave with no deal.
Others will say that their vote was to leave with the same benefits.
So just for the sake of argument if you said that the leave vote was a 50/50 split between the two.
Under those circumstances only 26% of the electorate will be able to claim that the result is what they voted for.
You might wish to overcomplicate things just to have an argument , but the simple choice was leave or remain .
Let's return to my 48% remain/26% Soft/26% no deal example.
You want a first past the post democracy, where you get to pick the runners and riders.
A bit like saying "at the next election, Labour must pick 2 candidates for every seat, 1 pro-Corbyn, i anti-, and just the 1 Tory. Ooh look, 500 Tory MPs." I knew Labour were unpopular-ignoring the fact that you just artificially halved their vote.
You don't want the type of democracy that says we remove the least popular option until 2 remain. Because in my example, the majority vote in favour of soft brexit, because the no deal would move over to the other Brexit. you know, a lot like the referendum we really did have, rather than the one you wish we had had.That is what is likely to happen in the next Tory leadership campaign.
You need to cease thinking that all Remainers are of 1 mind. Some people love the EU as it is. Others are deeply suspicious, but just think the economic benefits are worth it. And it is ignoring the fact that it is now likely that IF we become part of the EU again, we lose a lot of the special perks we once had. Euro anyone?
Democracy does not involve doing what is "best". It is carrying out what people vote for. Not denying that it has happened. Not insisting on a new vote until people give the "right" answer. And moving on as best as possible.
Brexit shock poll: Most Britons do NOT fear leaving EU with ...
www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1038413/Brexit-poll...
Brexit shock poll: Most Britons do NOT fear leaving EU with NO-DEAL MORE than half of Britons do not fear leaving the EU with a no-deal Brexit, a new poll has revealed.
No deal Brexit now the most popular choice with voters, poll …
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6615265/No-deal...
A poll by ICM (pictured) found that 28% of voters now back a no deal Brexit amid political deadlock in Westminster Just 8 per cent of the 2,046 people surveyed said they think Britain should push ...
No Deal Brexit Polls News
Polls find nearly as many people want no-deal Brexit as a ...
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6586793/Polls...
Voters are just as split on Brexit as the MPs! Polls find nearly as many people want no-deal as a referendum if May's plan is defeated, while others says she should try getting more out of the EU
Brexit: 'Very real' chance of Irish unity poll if no deal ...
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47170711
Several cabinet ministers have told the BBC a no-deal Brexit could lead to a vote on Irish unification. One senior minister said the prospect is "very real" and very much on the prime minister's ...
LISTEN TO THE PEOPLE! What YOUR area really thinks about no-deal Brexit - shock poll WITH just 60 days to go until the UK is scheduled to leave the European Union, the prospect of a no-deal Brexit ...
What are the latest No Deal Brexit odds and what is the ...
thesun.co.uk/news/8018307/brexit-no-deal-odds...
What is a No Deal Brexit, when could a deal with Brussels be ...
www.thesun.co.uk/news/6820080/no-deal-brexit..
A poll by YouGov on January 14 revealed that 35 per cent of the British public think a No Deal Brexit is likely, 21 per cent thinks a failed deal will result in a second referendum, 12 per cent ...
If we end up with a Norway deal, would you consider you had got what you voted for?
The first with a vote on three options.
The second, where the least popular option was eliminated, and a vote on the remaining two options.
Ok so take you out of it.
Sometimes they point to trends.
On many occasions they give a give a good idea of popularity.
I am not even saying that they are correct on this occasion.
What I am saying as there are 4 leave options that have some popularity.
If you reduce this to two as I will admit that at the time of the referendum not many people would have had a real idea of the options that would be available.
However many leave voters claim to have voted to leave with the intention of not having a deal.
Others will claim to have also voted to leave, but wanting to retain a close trading relationship with the EU.
Therefore if 50% of the leave voters were in favour of each option.
When we finally decide what we are doing, only 26% will be able to claim they got what they voted for.
This would not be a big selling point for democracy.
I am in favour of proportional representation.
I don't suppose Dominic Raab is the only leave voter that would rather remain than take a not very good deal.
Maintaining our existing benefits is another good reason for a referendum.
There are many good reasons to have a referendum. There is no point in going through them all again. Providing a solution to the current mess is a really good one.