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Brexit

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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 34,726
    Tikay,


    Below is what Laura Kuenssberg has to say about it,

    UK Prime Minister Theresa May will face a vote of confidence in her leadership later on Wednesday.

    She said a new prime minister would have to scrap or extend Article 50, the mechanism taking Britain out of the EU on 29 March, "delaying or even stopping Brexit".

    Conservative MPs will vote from 18:00 GMT to 20:00 GMT.
    A result is expected fairly quickly after the voting finishes.

    It is thought the result of the secret ballot could be announced within minutes of voting finishing, with Mrs May needing to get a majority of the votes cast by the 315 Tory MPs to win it.
    If that happens she cannot be challenged as Conservative leader for at least another year.
    If Mrs May does not win the vote there would then be a Conservative leadership contest in which she could not stand.
    If Mrs May won - but not overwhelmingly - she may decide to stand down as party leader and trigger a leadership contest in which she could not stand.

    Not immediately. She would be expected to stay on as a caretaker prime minister until a new Conservative leader is selected by the party, a process that could take up to six weeks.
    If there are multiple candidates, Conservative MPs hold a series of votes to choose two to go forward to a vote of party members.
    As leader of the largest party in the Commons, the new Conservative leader would then be expected to be asked to form a government and become prime minister, without a general election.

    The prime minister that promised she would be strong and stable is instead at the top of a party that looks weak and chaotic at a vital time.
    She's in this position, her critics say, because of the choices and missteps she has made.
    But her supporters would say it was because for some people in the Tory party who have had years of fury about Europe, nothing would ever have been good enough.
    One of her cabinet colleagues is predicting a "long day" but a "solid win". Let's see

    If she is ousted as Tory leader later she could still attend Thursday's EU summit as prime minister, but her deal would effectively be seen as dead.
    Mrs May says any new Conservative leader would have to delay Brexit to renegotiate a deal with the EU.
    But many of those calling for her to go say they would be happy for the UK to leave the EU on World Trade Organization terms, without a deal. They say warnings of economic doom are exaggerated.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46535739
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 34,726
    edited December 2018
    Tikay,
    On the last few questions,
    The Government stays in power in theory.
    The DUP have got the hump, and without their support they don't have a majority to pass any legislation.
    The Labour Party intend to move for a vote of no confidence in The Government, and are just biding their time. They intended to go for it after The Government lost the Meaningful Vote on Brexit. This vote was postponed, but it is just a matter of time.
    If she loses the vote they will have to extend Article 50, as it is too late to renegotiate anything before the end of March.
    Some of the idiots in the Tory Party, are happy with the chaos, as they are happy to leave with no deal.
    I think she would have won a no confidence vote last week, but she seems considerably weaker since she postponed the meaningful vote.

    It is complete chaos.
    Neither a change of Tory leader, or even a new Government will make any differences. Whoever does the negotiations will face the same problems.
    There is not currently a majority in Parliament for any deal.

    A second referendum is increasing in popularity in the polls, and is increasingly looking like the only way out.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 34,726
    edited December 2018
    Tikay,

    The problems we face were immediately identified by The EU, and described as cherry picking.
    The EU describe their four freedoms as indivisible. You cant have one without the rest.
    The ‘four freedoms’ of the European Union are the freedom of movement of goods, people, services and capital over borders.
    So after we leave we would like access to The Single Market, but we don't want Freedom of movement of people.
    The easiest way around the Irish border problem is to stay in The Customs Union, but doing so would not allow us to strike Free Trade Deals with other countries.

    Similarly we would like to be members of The Customs Union, but we want to strike Free Trade Deals elsewhere, and we don't want a border in Ireland.

    Many of the Hard Brexiteers wish to interpret what Leave voters were in favour of when they merely voted to leave.

    Some non member countries have access to The Single Market, others are members of The Customs Union. So we could be members of both, and still leave.

    Yet the Hard Brexiteers arrogantly state that the tick in the leave box, meant a wish to leave both these institutions, with no real evidence.

    Every different Brexit outcome will be damaging to our economy.

    Parliament seem currently to be moving further away from being able to solve this issue.

    Danny Dyer was right about David Cameron.

    Neither firing The PM, nor electing Jeremy Corbyn, can possibly help matters.
  • lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 7,671
    @HAYSIE "Whoever does the negotiations will face the same problems". And therein lies the problem,caused by 2 years of weak negotiations on our behalf. Perhaps if the negotiators had shown a bit more backbone and actually fought a lot harder for the best deal for us,instead of feebly accepting any scraps that the E.U. threw our way to placate us,we wouldn't now be in this situation. The country had the chance to stand up for itself and it has failed miserably and now we are suffering the consequences of their pathetic actions and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 34,726
    Tikay,

    The important things that could happen very soon are,

    The PM might get fired.

    The Labour could get a no confidence vote on The Government.

    The DUP could rip up their Confidence and Supply Agreement. This could result in Jeremy Corbyn being asked to form a Government without an election.


    Chaos.

  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 166,707
    edited December 2018
    Thanks Tony.

    What a thoroughly splendid mess.

    1 thought recurs to me constantly though. I'd not do Mrs May's job for a billion pounds, she cannot possibly "win" no matter what she does. Her life must be in turmoil, as she rushes here & there trying to solve unsolvable problems.

    And let's remember, it was the people that voted to leave, albeit narrowly, & arguably on incomplete information. Not one of us - or the politicians, for example - ever gave a moment's though to the Irish border complications. So the politicians are now responsible for imposing the will of the people. And yet we don't really know what we want, do we?

    What a mess.

    Still, whatever happens, better to live here than in some dreadful war zone or area blighted by famine. All these poor refugees (or "illegal immigrants" as they are often & cruelly described) desperately trying to find a better life would still prefer a messed up United Kingdom than living in, say, Yemen or Syria. They'd think the UK was the best place in the world, whilst many in the UK think the world is about to end if we offer the hand of friendship, at very small cost to our standard of living, to these poor people.

    It's hard to know what to think.
  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 166,707
    Type your comment
    HAYSIE said:

    Tikay,

    The important things that could happen very soon are,

    The PM might get fired.

    The Labour could get a no confidence vote on The Government.

    The DUP could rip up their Confidence and Supply Agreement. This could result in Jeremy Corbyn being asked to form a Government without an election.


    Chaos.

    Yes, "chaos" is about right, though if Mr Corbyn were to be elected, well you ain't seen nothing yet.


  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 34,726
    lucy4 said:

    @HAYSIE "Whoever does the negotiations will face the same problems". And therein lies the problem,caused by 2 years of weak negotiations on our behalf. Perhaps if the negotiators had shown a bit more backbone and actually fought a lot harder for the best deal for us,instead of feebly accepting any scraps that the E.U. threw our way to placate us,we wouldn't now be in this situation. The country had the chance to stand up for itself and it has failed miserably and now we are suffering the consequences of their pathetic actions and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

    I don't think there was what our side would consider to be a good deal to be had.
    The different factions on our side all want different things, and therefore make it impossible to get a deal that would make them all happy.
    The EU have rules. We helped to formulate them.
    If we were able to be the same, or better off, by leaving, every other country would leave.
    I think the EU have been more than fair, and very flexible.
    If the EU had said before the referendum, that leaving would mean a border in Ireland. We would have said we cant do that, and they could have just said, well don't leave then.
    If the people of Northern Ireland had been told that a vote to leave would mean a border, then that alone might have made the difference of remain winning.

    What did the people in Northern Ireland think was going to happen regarding the border?

    Jeremy Corbyn has a list of stuff that he can get out of The EU, and it is pure fantasy.
  • lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 7,671
    It now doesn't matter who is the leader of the government or if the opposition gain power,the damage has already been done. The E.U. will not be renegotiating on any deal and are sticking to their stance,it's a shame this country hasn't shown the same tenacity.
  • lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 7,671
    Corbyn is solely driven and focused on gaining power at whatever cost.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 34,726
    Tikay10 said:

    Thanks Tony.

    What a thoroughly splendid mess.

    1 thought recurs to me constantly though. I'd not do Mrs May's job for a billion pounds, she cannot possibly "win" no matter what she does. Her life must be in turmoil, as she rushes here & there trying to solve unsolvable problems.

    And let's remember, it was the people that voted to leave, albeit narrowly, & arguably on incomplete information. Not one of us - or the politicians, for example - ever gave a moment's though to the Irish border complications. So the politicians are now responsible for imposing the will of the people. And yet we don't really know what we want, do we?

    What a mess.

    Still, whatever happens, better to live here than in some dreadful war zone or area blighted by famine. All these poor refugees (or "illegal immigrants" as they are often & cruelly described) desperately trying to find a better life would still prefer a messed up United Kingdom than living in, say, Yemen or Syria. They'd think the UK was the best place in the world, whilst many in the UK think the world is about to end if we offer the hand of friendship, at very small cost to our standard of living, to these poor people.

    It's hard to know what to think.

    I sympathise with the challenges that Theresa May has faced, although I think being more astute would have been advantageous over just being dogged.

    She is suffering as it becomes apparent that the Brexit that many people assumed we would get has proved impossible.

    We are the most divided that we have been in my lifetime.

    I laugh at the silly "non elected officials" criticism of The EU, when I listen to our elected representatives.

    I think that the referendum turned out to be a protest vote. The problem is that those that were protesting were doing so in the wrong place.

    I have been watching a lot of Sky News this week. They have been interviewing many members of the general public. What struck me that many of them were able to spout clichés as their reason for voting to leave, like Taking Back Control, Sovereignty, etc, etc. Yet when asked to expand, the majority were unable to.

    Another aspect was that many of those that expressed reservations regarding immigration, appeared to either be immigrants themselves, or came from families that had obviously been immigrants. I just thought that this may have given them a kinder view.

    There is no doubt that we should accept our fair share of refugees. The way that young Syrian boy was bullied the other day makes many people embarrassed and ashamed of the way they are treated in this country.

    Maybe 10 years of austerity has made many people more selfish.

    There certainly many worse places to live than the UK.
    I was amused when listening to Nigel Lawson, the old Chancellor, and Chairman of Vote Leave, extolling the virtues of leaving The EU, the other day. He managed to omit from the conversation that he has applied for "the right to remain" in France. Strange that.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 34,726
    Tikay10 said:

    Type your comment

    HAYSIE said:

    Tikay,

    The important things that could happen very soon are,

    The PM might get fired.

    The Labour could get a no confidence vote on The Government.

    The DUP could rip up their Confidence and Supply Agreement. This could result in Jeremy Corbyn being asked to form a Government without an election.


    Chaos.

    Yes, "chaos" is about right, though if Mr Corbyn were to be elected, well you ain't seen nothing yet.


    Unthinkable.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 34,726
    lucy4 said:

    Corbyn is solely driven and focused on gaining power at whatever cost.

    He hasn't got a clue.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 34,726
    lucy4 said:

    It now doesn't matter who is the leader of the government or if the opposition gain power,the damage has already been done. The E.U. will not be renegotiating on any deal and are sticking to their stance,it's a shame this country hasn't shown the same tenacity.


    Any deal has to be supported by Parliament, but they cant agree on anything.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 34,726
    I wish someone would ask The DUP what they would do about the Irish border.
    You surely cant just say that you are against every possible solution.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 34,726
    All our politicians seem able to do is find problems, they all seem very light on solutions.

    An astute old boss of mine once said to me, "never come and see me with a problem". He told me that if I had a problem, and only thought about the problem it would drag me down.

    Whereas thinking about solutions is a much more positive thing to do.

    So if I had a problem, I had think of three solutions, then go and see him, to discuss which solution was the best.

    He should have gone in to politics.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 34,726
    She made it then, so we are back to square one.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 34,726
    What happens now for the prime minister and her Brexit plans?
    Theresa May has bought herself some time but key questions still need answering

    Has Theresa May done enough to secure her position?
    The 200-117 result is in truth finely balanced. It is enough of a win to stave off Theresa May’s immediate resignation, but the rebellion is at a significant level too.

    What does it mean for the Brexit negotiations?
    May should have bought herself a little time, probably a few more weeks. She is due to talk to EU leaders about Brexit over dinner in Brussels on Thursday, and has the opportunity to make headway in securing some sort of reassurance over the unpopular Northern Ireland backstop.
    What about the ‘meaningful vote’?
    The result clearly highlights May’s essential Brexit problem. The number of rebels at 117 is eyecatchingly similar to the 100 or so MPs who were planning to vote against her Brexit deal before she postponed the vote the day before its scheduled date of Tuesday.
    The Guardian view on Theresa May’s vote of confidence: a reluctant reprieve
    Read more

    It is a blocking minority preventing the current deal, or anything like it, from being ratified by parliament. To win round that amount of rebels, May has to make dramatic progress in her talks with Brussels and persuade the right of her party that she can “bin the backstop”.
    However, the European Union has made it repeatedly clear that the legally binding 585-page withdrawal agreement – which contains the Northern Irish backstop – is not up for renegotiation. And without renegotiation, the backstop will endure, and Tory rebels will almost certainly not vote for it.
    No 10 has promised that the vote will happen before 21 January, which in negotiating terms is very little time. So the Brexit fundamentals at Westminster remain, for now, unchanged.
    Those calling for a second vote want Labour to conclude that it cannot force a general election in line with its carefully crafted Brexit policy, and move on to campaigning for another referendum instead.
    But Jeremy Corbyn has always been lukewarm and there is huge suspicion over the subject among those close to the leader, because many of those keenest on a second referendum in the party have been among his biggest critics in the past.
    Labour may act in calling for a vote of no confidence, but it would be a surprise if did so before Christmas. The party line is that it wants to see May definitively fail in the Brexit talks first and that is more likely to take place in the new year.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/12/what-happens-now-for-the-prime-minister-and-her-brexit-plans
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 34,726
    May heads to Brussels to plead for Brexit concessions

    Theresa May is heading to Brussels for the second time this week in another frantic bid to win Brexit concessions after surviving a vote of no confidence by Conservative MPs.
    The prime minister defeated a no-confidence motion triggered by hardline Brexiteers by 200 votes to 117 in a showdown which failed to heal the bitter Tory divisions over Europe.


    "

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/may-heads-to-brussels-to-plead-for-brexit-concessions/ar-BBQSWZQ?ocid=spartandhp
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 34,726
    May heads to Brussels to plead for Brexit concessions

    And Foreign Office Minister Alistair Burt hit out at Mr Rees-Mogg and his European Research Group. "They never, ever stop," he said angrily.
    "Votes against them, letters going in late, nothing matters to ERG. After the apocalypse, all that will be left will be ants and Tory MPs complaining about Europe and their leader."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/may-heads-to-brussels-to-plead-for-brexit-concessions/ar-BBQSWZQ?ocid=spartandhp
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