Cabinet splits over second referendum on Brexit deal May’s plan heading for huge defeat as senior Tory suggests second referendum could be ‘PM’s only chance’
A deep cabinet split has opened up over whether Theresa May should back a second referendum in a final attempt to end the political deadlock over Brexit, as senior Conservatives predicted on Saturday night that her blueprint for leaving the EU was heading for a crushing House of Commons defeat.
No hope of success and no plan B – but the PM won’t blink Read more
Adding to a mounting sense of constitutional crisis ahead of Tuesday’s crucial parliamentary vote, No 10 is braced for more resignations of ministers and aides who want another referendum, or who believe May’s deal fails to deliver on Brexit. Will Quince, the Colchester MP and aide to the defence secretary Gavin Williamson, quit his post on Saturday night in protest at the Brexit deal.
. Some cabinet ministers now believe that May is so wedded to her Brexit deal that her only method of gaining approval will be through another referendum – and that the arguments for a second vote are emerging as stronger than those for a soft Brexit
@rainman215 why did you repost them again? Not funny and not clever.
The only reason I want those posts taken down from this thread is that they are totally out of context, posted here by accident, and completely irrelevant.
I am more than happy for them to stay in the thread where they were first made.
There my comment can be seen in full context alongside your mock outrage and dobiesdraw's many reposts of my question.
People can all see for themselves your subsequent refusal to condemn the idiots that burned an effigy of Grenfell tower and made jokes about people burning in burkhas.
It seems you were both outraged by me asking if you thought like them, yet you would not condemn them.
@rainman215 why did you repost them again? Not funny and not clever.
The only reason I want those posts taken down from this thread is that they are totally out of context, posted here by accident, and completely irrelevant.
I am more than happy for them to stay in the thread where they were first made.
There my comment can be seen in full context alongside your mock outrage and dobiesdraw's many reposts of my question.
People can all see for themselves your subsequent refusal to condemn the idiots that burned an effigy of Grenfell tower and made jokes about people burning in burkhas.
It seems you were both outraged by me asking if you thought like them, yet you would not condemn them.
It would appear that despite the other thread being closed down for abuse ,@Phantom66 you are determined to bring it over to this thread as well . I would ask you not to mention my name again in any context ..as you quite rightly say people are able to see a vile question for themselves by going onto that thread . Once again , I ask you to desist in mentioning my name and trying to provoke an argument, this is a thread about Brexit. Flagged for @Tikay10
Brexit latest: Theresa May still gearing up for crucial Commons vote despite reports, No 10 confirm
Downing Street have rejected the suggestions Theresa May could delay holding the crucial Brexit vote on Tuesday, despite reports.
And in an interview with the Mail on Sunday, Mrs May warned that the UK "would truly be in uncharted waters" if her Brexit deal is voted down by MPs. "It would mean grave uncertainty for the nation with a very real risk of no Brexit," she said.
Nigel Farage Hints He Might Launch A New Political Party If Brexit Is Delayed
Nigel Farage has said he may launch a new political party and fight the 2019 European election if Brexit is delayed. Just days after quitting Ukip, the party he led to victory in the 2014 European elections, Farage said he was “thinking about vehicles” to contest the elections next year if the UK is still in the European Union.
Video Brexit, the Irish border, backstop - does anyone really understand? The UK is due to leave the EU on 29 March 2019 but how many of us actually understand all the big issues like the backstop and the Irish border?
Splits, handbags and a Remain poll: what the Sunday papers said about Brexit Talk about the prospect of a second referendum is rife, along with that of a Corbyn government
The Independent’s Sunday edition carries an exclusive poll by BMG Research suggesting December saw the Remain vote edging into a majority among the public after months of steadily rising support.
Ex-cabinet minister Esther McVey says she would run for Conservative leader if asked
Ex-cabinet minister Esther McVey has said she would run to be Conservative leader if she was asked to by colleagues. The former pensions secretary said that there should be someone leading the country who has “passion” to deliver Brexit. Ms McVey said she would back Theresa May if she tried to renegotiate her deal, but otherwise argued that the prime minister would find herself in a difficult situation. In a separate interview ex-Brexit secretary Dominic Raab also would not rule out a bid for the Tory crown, but said a contest now would be indulgent. They were talking as pressure on Ms May and her administration appeared to be approaching its peak, with leadership rivals jostling for position and talk of the collapse of the government in the media.
As Churchill saw, Britain’s glory is not found in isolation
The European Union was once just an audacious dream. A fragile hope built out of the ashes of two world wars. European integration was not just a project led by the French and the Germans; from its birth, the UK had been an active parent. It was built on the values we sacrificed so much to protect: democracy, equality, human rights and freedom. Many of the Britain’s leaders in the 20th century – Clement Atlee, Harold Macmillan, Roy Jenkins, Harold Wilson – understood this first hand. And it was Winston Churchill who, in Zurich in 1946, first showed the courage and vision to articulate the case for integration. It is debated whether or not he saw Britain within this “kind of United States of Europe”, but months later, in May 1947, speaking in the Albert Hall, he argued: “Britain will have to play her full part as a member of the European family.
Corbyn 'could be PM in days' if Brexit deal rejected
Jeremy Corbyn could take over as prime minister of a minority government on Wednesday morning if MPs reject Theresa May's Brexit deal, Labour has told Sky News Sky News estimates around 100 Tory MPs are set to reject the deal. The split could have deeper implications after Brexit is settled, former attorney-general Dominic Grieve also warned. "There is a risk that the party will split and cannot continue in its current form," he told Sky News. And Nigel Dodds, deputy leader of the government's confidence-and-supply partners the Democratic Unionist Party, warned Mrs May couldn't "count on our support" indefinitely.
Former foreign secretary Mr Johnson said it was "nonsense" to suggest he had already been offering jobs in a future administration to fellow Tories. But when asked to give an "absolute, categorical promise" that he would not stand against the prime minister, Mr Johnson told the BBC's Andrew Marr Show: "I will give you an absolute, categorical promise that I will continue to advocate what I think is the most sensible plan."
Rival protests are taking place in London on Sunday in the run up to Tuesday's vote. A "Brexit betrayal" march featuring controversial activist Tommy Robinson and counter-protests by anti-fascist groups are planned.
Never mind the Brexit sideshow – recession is the real worry
It is crunch time for and Theresa May and the financial markets are in turmoil. The drama at Westminster has been mirrored by drama on stock markets, with share prices tumbling and money flooding into the customary safe haven assets – gold and government bonds. Squeaky bum time all round. None of this really has much to do with May’s doomed Brexit agreement, because the City has known since the minute the deal was signed that it had zero chance of getting parliamentary approval. Investors will only really get interested in events at Westminster if defeat for May is followed by a period of political paralysis or – even worse as far as the financial markets are concerned – the prospect of a Labour government.
Brexit debate: Jacob Rees-Mogg and Caroline Lucas battle with rival views for Britain
Channel 4 held its Brexit debate with four politicians trying to find ways of convincing you their way forward was best for the country. With no public vote scheduled it was a also case of appealing to MPs and laying out their stall ahead of a House of Commons vote planned for Tuesday on Theresa May's Brexit deal with the EU. In the blue corner, James Cleverly MP, Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party and supporting the Government's deal. In the red corner, Barry Gardiner MP, Shadow secretary of state for international trade who supports Labour’s alternative Brexit. In the EU corner, Caroline Lucas, a Green who wants a People’s Vote on the final deal and to Remain. And in the no-deal corner, vocal backbench MP Jacob Rees-Mogg who wants a no-strings hard Brexit, and is against Government's deal.
On Twitter, Ms Lucas and Mr Rees-Mogg appeared to have more support - and more insults.
Thousands of people have taken to the streets in London to march in a UKIP-organised rally and a counter-protest march. A UKIP spokesman said "quite a few thousand" supporters turned up to their "Brexit Betrayal" march alongside controversial activist Tommy Robinson. Marching in opposition were anti-fascist groups and Labour-backed campaigners. A spokeswoman said 15,000 turned up to oppose Mr Robinson's rally. Laura Parker of Labour grassroots group Momentum claimed their counter-demonstration "vastly" outnumbered UKIP's "nearly five to one". She said: "Even with the UKIP machine in tow, he [Robinson] only managed to bring a few thousand supporters out on the streets while we mobilised nearly 15,000 to march against his racism and bigotry.
Brexit: Leave Means Leave campaign prepares for another referendum
The head of a pro-Brexit campaign has said it is preparing for another EU referendum. Richard Tice, of Leave Means Leave, said he could see Theresa May calling such a vote "within a fortnight". "We think it is 50/50 that it will happen", he told the BBC's Politics Live, but his campaign had hired office space and was raising funds. He said the campaign's "core message" would be that the PM's Brexit deal is a "total betrayal of trust in democracy". Theresa May has consistently rejected calls from Remain-supporters for a further referendum on her EU withdrawal agreement. But with MPs looking set to reject it in a vote on Tuesday, there is likely to be an attempt by MPs in the pro-Remain People's Vote campaign to force it to the top of agenda.
I think Caroline Lucas argued her case honestly, and with conviction. Her position is probably strengthened by The ECJ ruling on Article 50.
Jacob Rees-Mogg attempted to stimulate support for the cliff edge that is a catastrophic no deal Brexit. I think there is a large majority that see this as a complete disaster, and will never get through Parliament. He has said that becoming better off after leaving, may take 50 years.
Barry Gardner just showed up the ridiculousness of Labours position. He was once famously recorded describing Labours 6 tests, as b0ll0cks. He would have been justified by using the same adjective to describe the whole of Labours Brexit policy.
Labours policy is to try and capitalise on the current chaos to get a General Election. If they fail in this aim they will support a 2nd referendum. In this debate he spoke out against a 2nd referendum. Yet next week if they have failed to get a General Election, he will presumably be speaking out in favour of one
The deal that Labour think they can negotiate is pure fantasy.
James Cleverly was in a difficult position trying to justify The Governments deal. This is difficult because it is not a deal. What we have is a Withdrawal agreement, Backstop, and a framework for trade negotiations.
He was trying to sell us a giraffe, when the majority would have preferred a horse. The problems are accepting rules with no say. Any future trade deal will involve the acceptance of rules, and there aren't many clubs that allow non members a say in any rulemaking. ECJ involvement after leaving, is very unpopular among MPs, and the public.
Jacob Rees-Mogg pointed out that there are 68 pages of regulations that are only applicable to NI, not exactly corresponding to The PM swearing that she would not allow any part of The UK to be treated differently to the rest.
The Backstop cant get support on either side of the argument.
The biggest problem is that The Brexit that many leave voters felt they were promised was always going to be impossible.
The European Court of Justice has ruled the UK can cancel Brexit without the permission of the other 27 EU members.
A group of anti-Brexit politicians argued the UK should be able to unilaterally halt Brexit, but they were opposed by the government and EU.
BBC Brussels correspondent Adam Fleming said the ruling made staying in the EU "a real, viable option" and that may "sway a few MPs" in the way they vote
If that two-year period gets extended, then a member state could change its mind during that extra time too
Two attempts by the UK government to appeal against the referral to the European court were rejected, and the case was heard by all 27 ECJ judges last month.
Pound hits lowest level in 18 months amid reports of UK parliament Brexit vote cancellation
The pound against the dollar (GBPUSD=X) and euro (GBPEUR=X) is tumbling on reports that the UK parliament vote, scheduled for tomorrow, has been called off. A report by Bloomberg said that UK prime minister had called off the crucial vote, which was why she called for an emergency meeting with her cabinet. It is believed that she is doing so because she was heading for a devastating dismissal of the seal she sealed with the European Union. The BBC’s political editor Laura Kuenssberg quickly reported the same thing.
Is everyone in this country trying to do what they can to ruin it. Shoot ourselves in the foot at every opportunity. And most of it seemingly for individual or political gain.
Whatever happened to Mays 'Strong and Stable' government claim,under her leadership this government has lurched from one disaster to another(not just Brexit). Her inability to control her own party(let alone the country) and now this latest backtracking proves that the job of leading the country has finally proven too big for her to carry on in her position.
Comments
May’s plan heading for huge defeat as senior Tory suggests second referendum could be ‘PM’s only chance’
A deep cabinet split has opened up over whether Theresa May should back a second referendum in a final attempt to end the political deadlock over Brexit, as senior Conservatives predicted on Saturday night that her blueprint for leaving the EU was heading for a crushing House of Commons defeat.
No hope of success and no plan B – but the PM won’t blink
Read more
Adding to a mounting sense of constitutional crisis ahead of Tuesday’s crucial parliamentary vote, No 10 is braced for more resignations of ministers and aides who want another referendum, or who believe May’s deal fails to deliver on Brexit. Will Quince, the Colchester MP and aide to the defence secretary Gavin Williamson, quit his post on Saturday night in protest at the Brexit deal.
. Some cabinet ministers now believe that May is so wedded to her Brexit deal that her only method of gaining approval will be through another referendum – and that the arguments for a second vote are emerging as stronger than those for a soft Brexit
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/08/cabinet-split-second-referendum-brexit
Brexit latest: Theresa May still gearing up for crucial Commons vote despite reports, No 10 confirm
Downing Street have rejected the suggestions Theresa May could delay holding the crucial Brexit vote on Tuesday, despite reports.
And in an interview with the Mail on Sunday, Mrs May warned that the UK "would truly be in uncharted waters" if her Brexit deal is voted down by MPs.
"It would mean grave uncertainty for the nation with a very real risk of no Brexit," she said.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/brexit-latest-theresa-may-still-gearing-up-for-crucial-commons-vote-despite-reports-no-10-confirm/ar-BBQGsZm?ocid=spartandhp
Nigel Farage has said he may launch a new political party and fight the 2019 European election if Brexit is delayed.
Just days after quitting Ukip, the party he led to victory in the 2014 European elections, Farage said he was “thinking about vehicles” to contest the elections next year if the UK is still in the European Union.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/nigel-farage-hints-he-might-launch-a-new-political-party-if-brexit-is-delayed/ar-BBQG7FF?ocid=spartandhp
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/newsbeat-46481177/brexit-the-irish-border-backstop-does-anyone-really-understand
Video
Brexit, the Irish border, backstop - does anyone really understand?
The UK is due to leave the EU on 29 March 2019 but how many of us actually understand all the big issues like the backstop and the Irish border?
Talk about the prospect of a second referendum is rife, along with that of a Corbyn government
The Independent’s Sunday edition carries an exclusive poll by BMG Research suggesting December saw the Remain vote edging into a majority among the public after months of steadily rising support.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/09/splits-handbags-and-a-remain-poll-what-the-sunday-papers-said-about-brexit
Ex-cabinet minister Esther McVey has said she would run to be Conservative leader if she was asked to by colleagues.
The former pensions secretary said that there should be someone leading the country who has “passion” to deliver Brexit.
Ms McVey said she would back Theresa May if she tried to renegotiate her deal, but otherwise argued that the prime minister would find herself in a difficult situation.
In a separate interview ex-Brexit secretary Dominic Raab also would not rule out a bid for the Tory crown, but said a contest now would be indulgent.
They were talking as pressure on Ms May and her administration appeared to be approaching its peak, with leadership rivals jostling for position and talk of the collapse of the government in the media.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/politics/ex-cabinet-minister-esther-mcvey-says-she-would-run-for-conservative-leader-if-asked/ar-BBQHhaI?ocid=spartandhp
The European Union was once just an audacious dream. A fragile hope built out of the ashes of two world wars. European integration was not just a project led by the French and the Germans; from its birth, the UK had been an active parent. It was built on the values we sacrificed so much to protect: democracy, equality, human rights and freedom.
Many of the Britain’s leaders in the 20th century – Clement Atlee, Harold Macmillan, Roy Jenkins, Harold Wilson – understood this first hand. And it was Winston Churchill who, in Zurich in 1946, first showed the courage and vision to articulate the case for integration. It is debated whether or not he saw Britain within this “kind of United States of Europe”, but months later, in May 1947, speaking in the Albert Hall, he argued: “Britain will have to play her full part as a member of the European family.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/columnists/as-churchill-saw-britain’s-glory-is-not-found-in-isolation/ar-BBQGZUJ?ocid=spartandhp
Jeremy Corbyn could take over as prime minister of a minority government on Wednesday morning if MPs reject Theresa May's Brexit deal, Labour has told Sky News
Sky News estimates around 100 Tory MPs are set to reject the deal.
The split could have deeper implications after Brexit is settled, former attorney-general Dominic Grieve also warned.
"There is a risk that the party will split and cannot continue in its current form," he told Sky News.
And Nigel Dodds, deputy leader of the government's confidence-and-supply partners the Democratic Unionist Party, warned Mrs May couldn't "count on our support" indefinitely.
Former foreign secretary Mr Johnson said it was "nonsense" to suggest he had already been offering jobs in a future administration to fellow Tories.
But when asked to give an "absolute, categorical promise" that he would not stand against the prime minister, Mr Johnson told the BBC's Andrew Marr Show: "I will give you an absolute, categorical promise that I will continue to advocate what I think is the most sensible plan."
Rival protests are taking place in London on Sunday in the run up to Tuesday's vote.
A "Brexit betrayal" march featuring controversial activist Tommy Robinson and counter-protests by anti-fascist groups are planned.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/corbyn-could-be-pm-in-days-if-brexit-deal-rejected/ar-BBQHvBd?ocid=spartandhp
It is crunch time for and Theresa May and the financial markets are in turmoil. The drama at Westminster has been mirrored by drama on stock markets, with share prices tumbling and money flooding into the customary safe haven assets – gold and government bonds. Squeaky bum time all round.
None of this really has much to do with May’s doomed Brexit agreement, because the City has known since the minute the deal was signed that it had zero chance of getting parliamentary approval. Investors will only really get interested in events at Westminster if defeat for May is followed by a period of political paralysis or – even worse as far as the financial markets are concerned – the prospect of a Labour government.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/never-mind-brexit-sideshow-recession-112751039.html
Channel 4 held its Brexit debate with four politicians trying to find ways of convincing you their way forward was best for the country.
With no public vote scheduled it was a also case of appealing to MPs and laying out their stall ahead of a House of Commons vote planned for Tuesday on Theresa May's Brexit deal with the EU.
In the blue corner, James Cleverly MP, Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party and supporting the Government's deal.
In the red corner, Barry Gardiner MP, Shadow secretary of state for international trade who supports Labour’s alternative Brexit.
In the EU corner, Caroline Lucas, a Green who wants a People’s Vote on the final deal and to Remain.
And in the no-deal corner, vocal backbench MP Jacob Rees-Mogg who wants a no-strings hard Brexit, and is against Government's deal.
On Twitter, Ms Lucas and Mr Rees-Mogg appeared to have more support - and more insults.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/brexit-debate-jacob-rees-mogg-and-caroline-lucas-battle-with-rival-views-for-britain/ar-BBQIi3y?ocid=spartandhp
Thousands of people have taken to the streets in London to march in a UKIP-organised rally and a counter-protest march.
A UKIP spokesman said "quite a few thousand" supporters turned up to their "Brexit Betrayal" march alongside controversial activist Tommy Robinson.
Marching in opposition were anti-fascist groups and Labour-backed campaigners.
A spokeswoman said 15,000 turned up to oppose Mr Robinson's rally.
Laura Parker of Labour grassroots group Momentum claimed their counter-demonstration "vastly" outnumbered UKIP's "nearly five to one".
She said: "Even with the UKIP machine in tow, he [Robinson] only managed to bring a few thousand supporters out on the streets while we mobilised nearly 15,000 to march against his racism and bigotry.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46495595
The head of a pro-Brexit campaign has said it is preparing for another EU referendum.
Richard Tice, of Leave Means Leave, said he could see Theresa May calling such a vote "within a fortnight".
"We think it is 50/50 that it will happen", he told the BBC's Politics Live, but his campaign had hired office space and was raising funds.
He said the campaign's "core message" would be that the PM's Brexit deal is a "total betrayal of trust in democracy".
Theresa May has consistently rejected calls from Remain-supporters for a further referendum on her EU withdrawal agreement.
But with MPs looking set to reject it in a vote on Tuesday, there is likely to be an attempt by MPs in the pro-Remain People's Vote campaign to force it to the top of agenda.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46480656
I think Caroline Lucas argued her case honestly, and with conviction. Her position is probably strengthened by The ECJ ruling on Article 50.
Jacob Rees-Mogg attempted to stimulate support for the cliff edge that is a catastrophic no deal Brexit. I think there is a large majority that see this as a complete disaster, and will never get through Parliament. He has said that becoming better off after leaving, may take 50 years.
Barry Gardner just showed up the ridiculousness of Labours position. He was once famously recorded describing Labours 6 tests, as b0ll0cks. He would have been justified by using the same adjective to describe the whole of Labours Brexit policy.
Labours policy is to try and capitalise on the current chaos to get a General Election. If they fail in this aim they will support a 2nd referendum.
In this debate he spoke out against a 2nd referendum.
Yet next week if they have failed to get a General Election, he will presumably be speaking out in favour of one
The deal that Labour think they can negotiate is pure fantasy.
James Cleverly was in a difficult position trying to justify The Governments deal.
This is difficult because it is not a deal.
What we have is a Withdrawal agreement, Backstop, and a framework for trade negotiations.
He was trying to sell us a giraffe, when the majority would have preferred a horse.
The problems are accepting rules with no say.
Any future trade deal will involve the acceptance of rules, and there aren't many clubs that allow non members a say in any rulemaking.
ECJ involvement after leaving, is very unpopular among MPs, and the public.
Jacob Rees-Mogg pointed out that there are 68 pages of regulations that are only applicable to NI, not exactly corresponding to The PM swearing that she would not allow any part of The UK to be treated differently to the rest.
The Backstop cant get support on either side of the argument.
The biggest problem is that The Brexit that many leave voters felt they were promised was always going to be impossible.
The European Court of Justice has ruled the UK can cancel Brexit without the permission of the other 27 EU members.
A group of anti-Brexit politicians argued the UK should be able to unilaterally halt Brexit, but they were opposed by the government and EU.
BBC Brussels correspondent Adam Fleming said the ruling made staying in the EU "a real, viable option" and that may "sway a few MPs" in the way they vote
If that two-year period gets extended, then a member state could change its mind during that extra time too
Two attempts by the UK government to appeal against the referral to the European court were rejected, and the case was heard by all 27 ECJ judges last month.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46481643
The pound against the dollar (GBPUSD=X) and euro (GBPEUR=X) is tumbling on reports that the UK parliament vote, scheduled for tomorrow, has been called off.
A report by Bloomberg said that UK prime minister had called off the crucial vote, which was why she called for an emergency meeting with her cabinet. It is believed that she is doing so because she was heading for a devastating dismissal of the seal she sealed with the European Union. The BBC’s political editor Laura Kuenssberg quickly reported the same thing.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/pound-hits-lowest-level-18-months-amid-reports-uk-parliament-brexit-vote-cancellation-121608922.html
Shoot ourselves in the foot at every opportunity.
And most of it seemingly for individual or political gain.