In hand 1 you say the flop is unlikely to have hit them. I disagree, I think that flop hits a limp/callers range a lot more than your range. There are so many combos that are all over that board and depending on how the table is playing I might not even cbet. I'm certainly giving up on the turn.
The river is a clear check for me also.
I agree it's more likely to have hit them than me, but it's still unlikely for them to have a six or a seven in their hand (excluding the two because there's very few hands they should have here with that card).
I'm not sure I agree that not cbetting that flop is the correct play. Although, I haven't read the other comments yet.
Hand 1 you say you "have" to bet river...why? You have some showdown value - not much - but do they ever fold a better hand to your bet? Do they call a worse hand? No would pretty much be my answer to both questions.
I felt I was ahead based on the open check on the turn and river, it was a value bet. I think there are some better hands here I can get to fold; A7 or A8 for instance. But looking at it with fresh eyes, I can see your point.
Pot odds. Four people ahead of me in already, good opportunity to "ladder up" if I hit the flop hard. Also, the table was VERY call-ey, ranges were generally quite wide for everyone. I mean, if you're asking me, then it's clearly wrong. But, I feel like I would be calling most hands in that spot. I know it's from the SB, but even so.
What is the minimum hand you would have called in that spot? 52s? 54s?
How often are you taking over 30 seconds to act decision wise? If it’s often, that’ll almost definitely be the reason for the weird looks you’ve been getting from other players and the rail.
That's a fair question, but I'm not taking 30 seconds per decision. I easily could, but I don't want to be that guy who disrupts the flow of the game. Five seconds on average.
PF: I think a good general rule when deep is making 3x w/o limpers, 4x w 1 limper, 5x with 2 limpers, etc.
F: It isn't the easiest board to hit in the history of the world, but definitely a board a limp call range will connect with some of the time, moreso when your have 2 of them. From the obvious hands like 89s or t9s to hands like 86s or T7s, basically random hands that they shouldn't have but are going to have because people don't play perfectly, especially people limping. With a hand that has no nut potential and some showdown value. I'd prefer to check and get 2 decent streets of value on A/K turns. That's the best way to punish passive players; win decent pots with top pair good kicker vs a weak top pair they shouldn't even have. I'd much rather cbet a hand like JT/ J9s w a bdfd. It has no showdown and more backdoor potential. Betting flop makes it hard to get value down the line when we do improve with AK, because you fold out all their Kx Ax high's immediately so when you do hit you have no weaker Ax and Kx to get value from and end up mostly getting them to fold their middle pair.
T: About the nut worst card. Connects really well with villain's range of hands that call the flop. AK is basically just always behind now but bluffing it off feels suicidal. Easy check. Good spot to go really go big if we do have the goods.
R: This is where your thought process is the most flawed. ' Another check. I have to bet here, and am probably ahead.' Very conflicting sentence. If you perceive yourself as probably being ahead, why would you have to bet? Just check and win most the time? Betting is just donating extra money for when you are behind. I also would like to know why you think your probably ahead. It seems like a spot where your almost definitely behind. Very very hard to pinpoint worse hands that call your massive flop bet that can't beat ace high after the 8 on the turn. Also the river pairing the board probably makes it feel like a more comfortable call for a lot of villain's hand, especially vs your bet check bet line (used to be called the suicide line because it never works!) As played think just check river and mainly lose.
R RR: Villain can have pretty much every nutted hand so it really isn't that surprising that you would face a raise here.
Really interesting analysis. I'm having trouble getting my head around why it's so clear cut that she's ahead after the turn. I'm not disputing it, I know you're right. Just needs a little more thought on my part I guess. I'll mull it over. What's getting me is that she checked on the river after it went check-check on the turn. That doesn't suggest strength.
I've been doing a lot of work over the last few days and have made a few subtle adjustments to my game (don't want to go into specifics as I feel they could make me more exploitable; but with regard to opening ranges and bet sizing).
I am feeling very confident at the moment. I believe I'm playing well, with the odd mistake here and there. It really does feel like it's all coming together right now. During every hand I'm considering position, raise size, board texture, range advantage etc. and that's certainly not something I was doing a month ago. I was aware of these concepts of course, but I now feel like I am able to take them all into consideration together which is a step forward.
I finished 2nd in a £500 Turbo Bounty Hunter last night for £55 + £29.54 HP, very happy with that. I know what you're thinking, but I'm not over-reacting to one good result. I actually wanted to post the previous paragraph before this tournament started.
Strategy at the moment is to continue to play the live 6-max events (might also do a full ring game if one takes my fancy), whilst playing the mini most nights, and also some turbo bounty hunters here and there.
I think even the best player in the world would struggle to make money completing 52o there, just flops too poorly. Your looking for 2pair+ or a super specific flop to even continue to one bet really and even when you flop trips if piles of money go in you can easily be the one losing. Dunno the exact range you should limp but suited cards would be much more reasonable.
She is almost always ahead of your large flop bet size both because of the turn card connecting extremely well with her continuing range which is further compounded by your very large bet sizing which already narrowed her flop call range. If the intent behind c-betting flop large was to get them to fold with their air, in game you should recognise this turn as being very bad; as of the hands that continue you were only ahead of straight draws once your cbet was called.
I challenge you to think of any reasonable hands she could hold that you are ahead of on the turn, without clutching at straws. About the only one I can think of is 53s, and that would be assuming she's already made 3 pretty large errors to even reach the turn.
She is obviously going to check some of her weaker hands on the river so it isn't like your getting check raised all the time. But on a board where your opponent can hold all sets, a lot of straights, and a decent amount of 6x, facing a raise on the river sometimes shouldn't be all that shocking. Especially as a lot of passive players love trapping the nuts. From my experience when this player type does find the raise its more or less exclusively value. Kind of similar to how some tight live players always go for the limp raise with pocket aces pre-flop.
Just got back from DTD after tonight's six-max. Here are a few notes before I forget everything:
Finished in about 35th/120ish. Feel like I am playing considerably better each time I visit, improvement has been significant. However, I am still making a few major mistakes.
Here's a couple of notable hands:
Guy on my right (I have position) raises to 3x, I make it 9x, he goes to about 25x, I fold. Had QQ. Feel like that play is correct, although very tight. What's hands are doing that? AA, KK or AK. More beating me than I am beating. He said it was a bluff though (Ax).
Guy on my right (same guy, I have position, BB vs SB) raises to 28k (BB is 12k). I shove 35 BB's. He calls, and knocks me out. I had 44. Nope, I don't know why I shoved either, really poor decision. Not sure I even had a thought process. Fatigue at play. Maybe an element of trying to get one over on him after he bluffed me off queens. Really poor, but I'll learn from it.
@peter27 some helpful things to include in the hands you post are the stack sizes, the positions and what you think of your opponent. For example your QQ hand, it’s a very different situation if you were both in the blinds compared to if you were first and second to act. Again it’s also very different if your opponent has been sat there for an hour not playing hands compared to if he’s actively raising and re-raising. If you include these kind of details you’ll get a much more useful response from the guys giving you feedback on your hands
@peter27 some helpful things to include in the hands you post are the stack sizes, the positions and what you think of your opponent. For example your QQ hand, it’s a very different situation if you were both in the blinds compared to if you were first and second to act. Again it’s also very different if your opponent has been sat there for an hour not playing hands compared to if he’s actively raising and re-raising. If you include these kind of details you’ll get a much more useful response from the guys giving you feedback on your hands
Unfortunately the performance of my memory acts as a blocker to this
I will try to include as many details as possible going forward.
I think even the best player in the world would struggle to make money completing 52o there, just flops too poorly. Your looking for 2pair+ or a super specific flop to even continue to one bet really and even when you flop trips if piles of money go in you can easily be the one losing. Dunno the exact range you should limp but suited cards would be much more reasonable.
She is almost always ahead of your large flop bet size both because of the turn card connecting extremely well with her continuing range which is further compounded by your very large bet sizing which already narrowed her flop call range. If the intent behind c-betting flop large was to get them to fold with their air, in game you should recognise this turn as being very bad; as of the hands that continue you were only ahead of straight draws once your cbet was called.
I challenge you to think of any reasonable hands she could hold that you are ahead of on the turn, without clutching at straws. About the only one I can think of is 53s, and that would be assuming she's already made 3 pretty large errors to even reach the turn.
She is obviously going to check some of her weaker hands on the river so it isn't like your getting check raised all the time. But on a board where your opponent can hold all sets, a lot of straights, and a decent amount of 6x, facing a raise on the river sometimes shouldn't be all that shocking. Especially as a lot of passive players love trapping the nuts. From my experience when this player type does find the raise its more or less exclusively value. Kind of similar to how some tight live players always go for the limp raise with pocket aces pre-flop.
I think a lot of players would be calling my flop bet with A7+ on the basis that the flop doesn't hit my range in a massive way. So, to answer your question A9 & AT are certainly hands she could be holding that I'm beating. With that in my mind, followed by her open checks on the turn and river, I can still find an argument for thinking I could be ahead.
Most players would bet the turn with an 8, and bet the river with a 6, no? However, I do take your point about passive players.
This hand is from the early stages of tonight's £2,000 Sheriff Bounty Hunter. Would you be calling on the river here? I almost didn't.
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
peter27
Small blind
20.00
20.00
5728.75
5x5
Big blind
40.00
60.00
5445.00
Your hole cards
K
K
Jessieak
Fold
POKEOFFU
Fold
kidwiz1
Raise
160.00
220.00
5020.00
richfield
Fold
peter27
Raise
460.00
680.00
5268.75
5x5
Fold
kidwiz1
Call
320.00
1000.00
4700.00
Flop
5
7
Q
peter27
Bet
500.00
1500.00
4768.75
kidwiz1
Call
500.00
2000.00
4200.00
Turn
Q
peter27
Bet
1000.00
3000.00
3768.75
kidwiz1
Call
1000.00
4000.00
3200.00
River
3
peter27
Check
kidwiz1
All-in
3200.00
7200.00
0.00
peter27
Call
3200.00
10400.00
568.75
peter27
Show
K
K
kidwiz1
Show
10
7
peter27
Win
Two Pairs, Kings and Queens
10400.00
10968.75
Unfortunately, I don't remember how the table was playing at the time, or what my notes on the opponent are (and I don't believe there's a way for me to look them up when not at the tables?).
I have to say, I'm feeling extremely confident with my play right now, and feel like a good run should be on the way. I am making some mistakes of course, but I also realise where my mistakes are much more often now - that's encouraging.
I think a lot of players would be calling my flop bet with A7+ on the basis that the flop doesn't hit my range in a massive way. So, to answer your question A9 & AT are certainly hands she could be holding that I'm beating. With that in my mind, followed by her open checks on the turn and river, I can still find an argument for thinking I could be ahead.
Most players would bet the turn with an 8, and bet the river with a 6, no? However, I do take your point about passive players.
I think A9/AT is an unlikely holding. Players playing a passive preflop strategy are generally not the type to call large flop bets when they miss completely. The ones who are you want to be playing a value heavy strategy against. Players playing such a visibly bad passive pre-flop strategy aren't thinking about your range and how it interacts with the flop. I think most players would check the turn with an 8 there. If you think you could be ahead on the river check back and take your perceived showdown value, betting river does not accomplish much.
This hand is from the early stages of tonight's £2,000 Sheriff Bounty Hunter. Would you be calling on the river here? I almost didn't.
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
peter27
Small blind
20.00
20.00
5728.75
5x5
Big blind
40.00
60.00
5445.00
Your hole cards
K
K
Jessieak
Fold
POKEOFFU
Fold
kidwiz1
Raise
160.00
220.00
5020.00
richfield
Fold
peter27
Raise
460.00
680.00
5268.75
5x5
Fold
kidwiz1
Call
320.00
1000.00
4700.00
Flop
5
7
Q
peter27
Bet
500.00
1500.00
4768.75
kidwiz1
Call
500.00
2000.00
4200.00
Turn
Q
peter27
Bet
1000.00
3000.00
3768.75
kidwiz1
Call
1000.00
4000.00
3200.00
River
3
peter27
Check
kidwiz1
All-in
3200.00
7200.00
0.00
peter27
Call
3200.00
10400.00
568.75
peter27
Show
K
K
kidwiz1
Show
10
7
peter27
Win
Two Pairs, Kings and Queens
10400.00
10968.75
Unfortunately, I don't remember how the table was playing at the time, or what my notes on the opponent are (and I don't believe there's a way for me to look them up when not at the tables?).
I have to say, I'm feeling extremely confident with my play right now, and feel like a good run should be on the way. I am making some mistakes of course, but I also realise where my mistakes are much more often now - that's encouraging.
I don't know opponent in this hand and hate these spots without a read or idea how frequently he/she bluffs. Some opponents never bluff here so its an easy fold vs certain opponents.
At this level I would be inclined to think your avg opponent is capable of bluffing. Have a think on what opp can have that you beat. For me, any pair makes sense, A7, A5 and A3 are possible as well as other variations of 7s, 5s a and 3s. Can't make out if there was a flush draw on the flop, if so that can be added in.
This was an inconspicuous hand that had me confused in the mini.
Would you be calling on the flop?
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
aliudammy
Small blind
250.00
250.00
15885.00
peter27
Big blind
500.00
750.00
32390.50
Your hole cards
10
6
ramsfan
Call
500.00
1250.00
25235.00
JBuckyyy
Fold
saxonking
Fold
aliudammy
Call
250.00
1500.00
15635.00
peter27
Check
Flop
10
5
Q
aliudammy
Check
peter27
Check
ramsfan
Bet
1500.00
3000.00
23735.00
aliudammy
Call
1500.00
4500.00
14135.00
peter27
Fold
Turn
6
aliudammy
Check
ramsfan
Check
River
7
aliudammy
Bet
2000.00
6500.00
12135.00
ramsfan
Call
2000.00
8500.00
21735.00
aliudammy
Show
J
9
ramsfan
Show
A
10
ramsfan
Win
Pair of 10s
8500.00
30235.00
I didn't really have a significant read on the two other players, I folded purely because it's quite conceivable one of them has the queen, or a better ten, and I didn't want the dilema of having to call turn and river bets with a hand that has limited showdown value.
Congratulations on taking down a mini peter - no mean feat, well done.
T6o is a trivial fold 3 way once the LJ limper pots it and the SB calls this pot-size bet. I don't know anything about the LJ limper in this instance but it's also not an uncommon line for habitual limpers to also limp AA/KK from EP then pot the flop - especially on 'wet' boards with high cards where opponents can continue with a decent number of combo's. Even though it's likely that the 6h and 6c are 'clean' outs (vs what should be strong ranges as played which also gives us good implied odds) in this spot, it's not enough to continue with vs both players facing this size.
This hand happened tonight and I immediately recognised some similarities with the hand we discussed above - it illustrates a few of the points nicely too
Comments
I'm not sure I agree that not cbetting that flop is the correct play. Although, I haven't read the other comments yet. Fair point about the 3's, hadn't previously considered that during the hand to be honest. I felt I was ahead based on the open check on the turn and river, it was a value bet. I think there are some better hands here I can get to fold; A7 or A8 for instance. But looking at it with fresh eyes, I can see your point. Pot odds. Four people ahead of me in already, good opportunity to "ladder up" if I hit the flop hard. Also, the table was VERY call-ey, ranges were generally quite wide for everyone. I mean, if you're asking me, then it's clearly wrong. But, I feel like I would be calling most hands in that spot. I know it's from the SB, but even so.
What is the minimum hand you would have called in that spot? 52s? 54s? That's a fair question, but I'm not taking 30 seconds per decision. I easily could, but I don't want to be that guy who disrupts the flow of the game. Five seconds on average. Really interesting analysis. I'm having trouble getting my head around why it's so clear cut that she's ahead after the turn. I'm not disputing it, I know you're right. Just needs a little more thought on my part I guess. I'll mull it over. What's getting me is that she checked on the river after it went check-check on the turn. That doesn't suggest strength.
I am feeling very confident at the moment. I believe I'm playing well, with the odd mistake here and there. It really does feel like it's all coming together right now. During every hand I'm considering position, raise size, board texture, range advantage etc. and that's certainly not something I was doing a month ago. I was aware of these concepts of course, but I now feel like I am able to take them all into consideration together which is a step forward.
I finished 2nd in a £500 Turbo Bounty Hunter last night for £55 + £29.54 HP, very happy with that. I know what you're thinking, but I'm not over-reacting to one good result. I actually wanted to post the previous paragraph before this tournament started.
Strategy at the moment is to continue to play the live 6-max events (might also do a full ring game if one takes my fancy), whilst playing the mini most nights, and also some turbo bounty hunters here and there.
She is almost always ahead of your large flop bet size both because of the turn card connecting extremely well with her continuing range which is further compounded by your very large bet sizing which already narrowed her flop call range. If the intent behind c-betting flop large was to get them to fold with their air, in game you should recognise this turn as being very bad; as of the hands that continue you were only ahead of straight draws once your cbet was called.
I challenge you to think of any reasonable hands she could hold that you are ahead of on the turn, without clutching at straws. About the only one I can think of is 53s, and that would be assuming she's already made 3 pretty large errors to even reach the turn.
She is obviously going to check some of her weaker hands on the river so it isn't like your getting check raised all the time. But on a board where your opponent can hold all sets, a lot of straights, and a decent amount of 6x, facing a raise on the river sometimes shouldn't be all that shocking. Especially as a lot of passive players love trapping the nuts. From my experience when this player type does find the raise its more or less exclusively value. Kind of similar to how some tight live players always go for the limp raise with pocket aces pre-flop.
Finished in about 35th/120ish. Feel like I am playing considerably better each time I visit, improvement has been significant. However, I am still making a few major mistakes.
Here's a couple of notable hands:
Guy on my right (I have position) raises to 3x, I make it 9x, he goes to about 25x, I fold. Had QQ. Feel like that play is correct, although very tight. What's hands are doing that? AA, KK or AK. More beating me than I am beating. He said it was a bluff though (Ax).
Guy on my right (same guy, I have position, BB vs SB) raises to 28k (BB is 12k). I shove 35 BB's. He calls, and knocks me out. I had 44. Nope, I don't know why I shoved either, really poor decision. Not sure I even had a thought process. Fatigue at play. Maybe an element of trying to get one over on him after he bluffed me off queens. Really poor, but I'll learn from it.
Groggy, I will respond in the coming days.
I will try to include as many details as possible going forward.
Most players would bet the turn with an 8, and bet the river with a 6, no? However, I do take your point about passive players.
I have to say, I'm feeling extremely confident with my play right now, and feel like a good run should be on the way. I am making some mistakes of course, but I also realise where my mistakes are much more often now - that's encouraging.
At this level I would be inclined to think your avg opponent is capable of bluffing. Have a think on what opp can have that you beat. For me, any pair makes sense, A7, A5 and A3 are possible as well as other variations of 7s, 5s a and 3s. Can't make out if there was a flush draw on the flop, if so that can be added in.
Will do a full diary update tomorrow.
Would you be calling on the flop?
T6o is a trivial fold 3 way once the LJ limper pots it and the SB calls this pot-size bet. I don't know anything about the LJ limper in this instance but it's also not an uncommon line for habitual limpers to also limp AA/KK from EP then pot the flop - especially on 'wet' boards with high cards where opponents can continue with a decent number of combo's. Even though it's likely that the 6h and 6c are 'clean' outs (vs what should be strong ranges as played which also gives us good implied odds) in this spot, it's not enough to continue with vs both players facing this size.
Don't know what's wrong with me today, making stupid decisions on the tables. Can't seem to concentrate. Going to stay away for the rest of the night.