You are dealing with such small sample sizes and trying to make judgements based on those small samples. Groggy alluded to this before about you being very results orientated. You obviously want to improve which is great and the diary makes this all the more public. With your volume its going to take a long time to see any real difference so I would just try and enjoy playing more. Keep analysing spots and try to improve your game. Volume wise you played 29 MTTs last month, I played 665 (excluding all in sats) so you are trying to come to conclusions from a relatively small sample size and results will always be skewed over such a small sample. You can improve loads and have worse results over your month just through variance. Likewise you could have good results over the same period but be playing worse. As I said before, keep analysing spots and look at ranges rather than focus on a spot being played correctly or not because our opponent had a specific hand this time. For example if our opponent is shoving 100% of hands and we call with kings and they happen to have aces this particular time it doesn't mean our call is wrong it just means we lose the hand in this instance but long term we print money by calling.
Finally poker is a super frustrating game a lot of the time but I think that is why a lot of us love it!
You are dealing with such small sample sizes and trying to make judgements based on those small samples. Groggy alluded to this before about you being very results orientated. You obviously want to improve which is great and the diary makes this all the more public. With your volume its going to take a long time to see any real difference so I would just try and enjoy playing more. Keep analysing spots and try to improve your game. Volume wise you played 29 MTTs last month, I played 665 (excluding all in sats) so you are trying to come to conclusions from a relatively small sample size and results will always be skewed over such a small sample. You can improve loads and have worse results over your month just through variance. Likewise you could have good results over the same period but be playing worse. As I said before, keep analysing spots and look at ranges rather than focus on a spot being played correctly or not because our opponent had a specific hand this time. For example if our opponent is shoving 100% of hands and we call with kings and they happen to have aces this particular time it doesn't mean our call is wrong it just means we lose the hand in this instance but long term we print money by calling.
Finally poker is a super frustrating game a lot of the time but I think that is why a lot of us love it!
There are both advantages and disadvantages to playing J10 pre-flop in this spot. I don't think playing as you did is wrong-it is arguable either way. The rest of the hand probably plays itself.
One disadvantage is coming up against the likes of AJ, where you are likely to bleed chips in exactly this way. I don't think there are "clear checks" from there. Doesn't make the play wrong, though. Always nice to hit the lucky river card, mind
Just finished 2nd in a £12k Sunday Major Direct Satellite but didn't get a seat sadly.
This game can be pretty demotivating at times because it's almost impossible to tell if I'm improving or not. I've mentioned this before and there's no real answer. I'm just ranting.
I thought your play seemed stronger with 6 on the table than when short-handed. Seemed to be trying to force the pace when 8/7/3 left. I could be wrong tho-I was playing a lot of tables at that stage.
In relation to exit hand-have to bluff heads up-we've all done it-hard to bluff me off a hand when I've actually got what you were representing...
You're absolutely spot on. I felt much more comfortable with more players at the table. When I'm 3-handed or 2-handed, I often feel like I have to open up my range significantly to avoid effectively blinding out - perhaps I'm doing that too much. It does make sense that this is a weak spot for me, and maybe most players, because you're in that situation much less frequently than being 6-handed.
Opponent has 20bb to start the hand and the 3x open combined with a c-bet which is also on the larger side threatens opponent with a pot size bet for the rest of his chips on the turn should he decide to call flop - was this by design or coincidence?
I do think your line is reasonable here as played given stack sizes.
Do you play the hand much differently here if stacks are deeper?
When effective stacks are a bit deeper than this and we hold this particular combination in this spot then I think we need to be checking the turn if we had decided to c-bet flop and especially so if we had chosen a c-bet on the larger side. Having the Tc in our hand reduces combinations of frontdoor flush draws our opponent could have and also combinations of KTo, QTo and T9 - the more draws we block/remove from our opponents continuing range the more weighted they become towards made hands and that's not great for us when we only have a marginal made hand ourselves and this actually makes a c-bet here a little bit thin and it may be better to start pot controlling with this exact combo of JTo immediately (or c-betting for a smaller size).
If we did decide to bet flop another reason for slowing down on this turn in particular is that it favours the BB's defending range over our CO opening range - BB can reasonably have all combinations of hands we don't open here; J8, J7, T9o and 87o (we might open J8s) and whenever this is the case we should mostly be slowing down on turns - it's important to be aware of how preflop ranges interact with different flops and then which turn cards are 'good' for our range and 'bad' for our opponents range and vice versa in different spots.
The concept of range interaction on different flops, turns and rivers is by FAR the toughest concept to get your head around in poker and it's something I'm slowly getting to grips with the more I play but I'm still making horrendous errors in game by betting in spots that are clear checks and checking in spots which are clear bets. There are lots of spots in between that are fine as bets or checks (on earlier streets at least) with varying frequencies but there are spots where betting is far superior to checking or checking is far superior to betting and it's hugely important to know why that is and recognise those spots...
...sorry, I went a bit off topic
This is one of the most insightful comments I've ever had on my diary, thanks for taking the time to write all that up, it's really helpful for me.
You are dealing with such small sample sizes and trying to make judgements based on those small samples. Groggy alluded to this before about you being very results orientated. You obviously want to improve which is great and the diary makes this all the more public. With your volume its going to take a long time to see any real difference so I would just try and enjoy playing more. Keep analysing spots and try to improve your game. Volume wise you played 29 MTTs last month, I played 665 (excluding all in sats) so you are trying to come to conclusions from a relatively small sample size and results will always be skewed over such a small sample. You can improve loads and have worse results over your month just through variance. Likewise you could have good results over the same period but be playing worse. As I said before, keep analysing spots and look at ranges rather than focus on a spot being played correctly or not because our opponent had a specific hand this time. For example if our opponent is shoving 100% of hands and we call with kings and they happen to have aces this particular time it doesn't mean our call is wrong it just means we lose the hand in this instance but long term we print money by calling.
Finally poker is a super frustrating game a lot of the time but I think that is why a lot of us love it!
Yeah, I do understand the concept that you can play perfectly and lose or play horrifically and win. I do also get that my sample size is incredibly small.
I guess what frustrates me most is that I'm losing money to (potentially) find out I'm **** at the game. How much could this cost me? £10k? £100k? I know there's no answer to this, and I'm in the fortunate position to be comfortable in terms of my finances. Still frustrating mind.
Thanks for posting that though, it is nice to be reminded of that now and again.
Two interesting hands from tonight's mini that I got knocked out of;
1)
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
A0R2001
Small blind
20.00
20.00
9940.00
engy
Big blind
40.00
60.00
10000.00
Your hole cards
A
K
Bigphil452
Call
40.00
100.00
10360.00
jane1217
Call
40.00
140.00
9560.00
peter27
Raise
160.00
300.00
10100.00
GLADDO
Fold
A0R2001
Fold
engy
Fold
Bigphil452
Call
120.00
420.00
10240.00
jane1217
Call
120.00
540.00
9440.00
Flop
2
6
7
Bigphil452
Check
jane1217
Check
peter27
Bet
385.00
925.00
9715.00
Bigphil452
Fold
jane1217
Call
385.00
1310.00
9055.00
Turn
8
jane1217
Check
peter27
Check
River
6
jane1217
Check
peter27
Bet
1000.00
2310.00
8715.00
jane1217
Raise
4310.00
6620.00
4745.00
peter27
Fold
jane1217
Muck
jane1217
Win
3310.00
8055.00
jane1217
Return
3310.00
0.00
11365.00
Here's what I thought on each street:
PF: Going to raise 4x this time, higher than normal but it's a very limpy table and I don't want to be against too many players. Flop: Unlikely to have hit them, possibly an A6 or A7. C-bet. Turn: Hmm, she called. A6 or A7? Can't be an overpair or she would have re-raised pre. Possibly 45s or 89s. Let's slow down. River: Another check. I have to bet here, and am probably ahead. River re-raise: WTF? Did she have the six and check for deception?
I should note that this player didn't seem to like raising too often, she likes playing pots, but nearly always limping in pre-flop.
Curious to know if you guys would have had a different thought process to me?
To be honest, I did think it quite likely he had the flush before I called the river shove.
There were two reasons I decided to call:
A) I hadn't really been hitting anything all night, and this was the best opportunity by far with 20 BB's left on the river.
B ) I had pointpointed the oppoenent as a solid player. Tight, but aggressive when required. For this reason I thought he may have opened betting on the turn to inflate the pot should he hit his flush. Especially given that the table was fairly non-aggressive generally, so a re-raise was unlikely unless someone had a monster hand.
In hand 1 you say the flop is unlikely to have hit them. I disagree, I think that flop hits a limp/callers range a lot more than your range. There are so many combos that are all over that board and depending on how the table is playing I might not even cbet. I'm certainly giving up on the turn.
Hand 1 you say you "have" to bet river...why? You have some showdown value - not much - but do they ever fold a better hand to your bet? Do they call a worse hand? No would pretty much be my answer to both questions.
Hi Peter As you say, the table was mostly passive and by nature were calling min raises, I decided to limp cos a)I had a decent stack in the bounty hunter, and b -looking at your stack I don’t think I could call a shove by you pre flop. Reason for not betting the turn? It kinda tells everyone what I have if a heart comes on the river, Your bet sizing on the river gave me the chance to shove, unlucky on hitting the wrong 3.
You are dealing with such small sample sizes and trying to make judgements based on those small samples. Groggy alluded to this before about you being very results orientated. You obviously want to improve which is great and the diary makes this all the more public. With your volume its going to take a long time to see any real difference so I would just try and enjoy playing more. Keep analysing spots and try to improve your game. Volume wise you played 29 MTTs last month, I played 665 (excluding all in sats) so you are trying to come to conclusions from a relatively small sample size and results will always be skewed over such a small sample. You can improve loads and have worse results over your month just through variance. Likewise you could have good results over the same period but be playing worse. As I said before, keep analysing spots and look at ranges rather than focus on a spot being played correctly or not because our opponent had a specific hand this time. For example if our opponent is shoving 100% of hands and we call with kings and they happen to have aces this particular time it doesn't mean our call is wrong it just means we lose the hand in this instance but long term we print money by calling.
Finally poker is a super frustrating game a lot of the time but I think that is why a lot of us love it!
Thats why sex is always that much better when you are a little frustrated through not having any for a while. And a win is that much sweeter when you have been losing for a while. How us humans do like to punish ourselves. No pleasure without some pain.
I will read over those comments in the next few days, but wanted to make a few quick notes following my DTD experience tonight.
- Live cashing streak (of two ..) is over. Finished in about 27th/28th out of 140 ish. Top 17 cash.
- Yet again, I was the tightest player at the table by some margin. But, I don't necessarily think that's the wrong strategy, even though it's unusual (apparently).
- Relatively card dead all night. I did manage to get a few outrageous bluffs through, but I don't think I'm picking my spots well to be honest.
- I need to learn to defend my big blind considerably more.
- I need a lot of work on the ranges people will raise and call with from each position, along with understanding range advantage in more detail. I can usually get there, but it takes me over the 30 second time limit! I'm a slow thinker ..
If any of you guys feel you have anything to add in terms of what I should be working on (based on your play with me), please do let me know.
Oh, and what is the ruling in live poker about seeing other people's cards? I started off on a table in seat #4, and could consistently see the cards of the guy in seat #3 as he wasn't covering them when checking what he had. He eventually busted, and incredibly I had the same situation with the guy who replaced him! Excluding any moral arguments, what are the rules on this? Could I get DQ'd if caught looking?
I will read over those comments in the next few days, but wanted to make a few quick notes following my DTD experience tonight.
- Live cashing streak (of two ..) is over. Finished in about 27th/28th out of 140 ish. Top 17 cash.
- Yet again, I was the tightest player at the table by some margin. But, I don't necessarily think that's the wrong strategy, even though it's unusual (apparently).
- Relatively card dead all night. I did manage to get a few outrageous bluffs through, but I don't think I'm picking my spots well to be honest.
- I need to learn to defend my big blind considerably more.
- I need a lot of work on the ranges people will raise and call with from each position, along with understanding range advantage in more detail. I can usually get there, but it takes me over the 30 second time limit! I'm a slow thinker ..
If any of you guys feel you have anything to add in terms of what I should be working on (based on your play with me), please do let me know.
Oh, and what is the ruling in live poker about seeing other people's cards? I started off on a table in seat #4, and could consistently see the cards of the guy in seat #3 as he wasn't covering them when checking what he had. He eventually busted, and incredibly I had the same situation with the guy who replaced him! Excluding any moral arguments, what are the rules on this? Could I get DQ'd if caught looking?
It's the players own responsibility to protect their cards, if they are being careless that's not your fault. I'd still mention it to them though - "hey mate, protect your hand, I can see your cards". Mention it to the Dealer too if it's bothering you, but it's not your fault.
You can't get disqualified for seeing his cards if he is being careless. You COULD be disqualified I suppose if you were deliberately & repeatedly sneaking a look at his cards, but it's still his responsibility to protect his hand.
How often are you taking over 30 seconds to act decision wise? If it’s often, that’ll almost definitely be the reason for the weird looks you’ve been getting from other players and the rail.
With regards to seeing another player’s cards, I don’t play live much but think the unwritten rule is warn them early that you can see them, then if they keep doing it say nothing and just take advantage of it
I would warn someone, could well be they are unaware they are doing it. If they kept doing it I would warn them again and do it so dealer could hear. It isn't your fault but just wouldn't feel right to me to be seeing someone else's cards.
Two interesting hands from tonight's mini that I got knocked out of;
1)
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
A0R2001
Small blind
20.00
20.00
9940.00
engy
Big blind
40.00
60.00
10000.00
Your hole cards
A
K
Bigphil452
Call
40.00
100.00
10360.00
jane1217
Call
40.00
140.00
9560.00
peter27
Raise
160.00
300.00
10100.00
GLADDO
Fold
A0R2001
Fold
engy
Fold
Bigphil452
Call
120.00
420.00
10240.00
jane1217
Call
120.00
540.00
9440.00
Flop
2
6
7
Bigphil452
Check
jane1217
Check
peter27
Bet
385.00
925.00
9715.00
Bigphil452
Fold
jane1217
Call
385.00
1310.00
9055.00
Turn
8
jane1217
Check
peter27
Check
River
6
jane1217
Check
peter27
Bet
1000.00
2310.00
8715.00
jane1217
Raise
4310.00
6620.00
4745.00
peter27
Fold
jane1217
Muck
jane1217
Win
3310.00
8055.00
jane1217
Return
3310.00
0.00
11365.00
Here's what I thought on each street:
PF: Going to raise 4x this time, higher than normal but it's a very limpy table and I don't want to be against too many players. Flop: Unlikely to have hit them, possibly an A6 or A7. C-bet. Turn: Hmm, she called. A6 or A7? Can't be an overpair or she would have re-raised pre. Possibly 45s or 89s. Let's slow down. River: Another check. I have to bet here, and am probably ahead. River re-raise: WTF? Did she have the six and check for deception?
I should note that this player didn't seem to like raising too often, she likes playing pots, but nearly always limping in pre-flop.
Curious to know if you guys would have had a different thought process to me?
PF: I think a good general rule when deep is making 3x w/o limpers, 4x w 1 limper, 5x with 2 limpers, etc.
F: It isn't the easiest board to hit in the history of the world, but definitely a board a limp call range will connect with some of the time, moreso when your have 2 of them. From the obvious hands like 89s or t9s to hands like 86s or T7s, basically random hands that they shouldn't have but are going to have because people don't play perfectly, especially people limping. With a hand that has no nut potential and some showdown value. I'd prefer to check and get 2 decent streets of value on A/K turns. That's the best way to punish passive players; win decent pots with top pair good kicker vs a weak top pair they shouldn't even have. I'd much rather cbet a hand like JT/ J9s w a bdfd. It has no showdown and more backdoor potential. Betting flop makes it hard to get value down the line when we do improve with AK, because you fold out all their Kx Ax high's immediately so when you do hit you have no weaker Ax and Kx to get value from and end up mostly getting them to fold their middle pair.
T: About the nut worst card. Connects really well with villain's range of hands that call the flop. AK is basically just always behind now but bluffing it off feels suicidal. Easy check. Good spot to go really go big if we do have the goods.
R: This is where your thought process is the most flawed. ' Another check. I have to bet here, and am probably ahead.' Very conflicting sentence. If you perceive yourself as probably being ahead, why would you have to bet? Just check and win most the time? Betting is just donating extra money for when you are behind. I also would like to know why you think your probably ahead. It seems like a spot where your almost definitely behind. Very very hard to pinpoint worse hands that call your massive flop bet that can't beat ace high after the 8 on the turn. Also the river pairing the board probably makes it feel like a more comfortable call for a lot of villain's hand, especially vs your bet check bet line (used to be called the suicide line because it never works!) As played think just check river and mainly lose.
R RR: Villain can have pretty much every nutted hand so it really isn't that surprising that you would face a raise here.
Comments
For example if our opponent is shoving 100% of hands and we call with kings and they happen to have aces this particular time it doesn't mean our call is wrong it just means we lose the hand in this instance but long term we print money by calling.
Finally poker is a super frustrating game a lot of the time but I think that is why a lot of us love it!
One disadvantage is coming up against the likes of AJ, where you are likely to bleed chips in exactly this way. I don't think there are "clear checks" from there. Doesn't make the play wrong, though. Always nice to hit the lucky river card, mind
I guess what frustrates me most is that I'm losing money to (potentially) find out I'm **** at the game. How much could this cost me? £10k? £100k? I know there's no answer to this, and I'm in the fortunate position to be comfortable in terms of my finances. Still frustrating mind.
Thanks for posting that though, it is nice to be reminded of that now and again.
1)
PF: Going to raise 4x this time, higher than normal but it's a very limpy table and I don't want to be against too many players.
Flop: Unlikely to have hit them, possibly an A6 or A7. C-bet.
Turn: Hmm, she called. A6 or A7? Can't be an overpair or she would have re-raised pre. Possibly 45s or 89s. Let's slow down.
River: Another check. I have to bet here, and am probably ahead.
River re-raise: WTF? Did she have the six and check for deception?
I should note that this player didn't seem to like raising too often, she likes playing pots, but nearly always limping in pre-flop.
Curious to know if you guys would have had a different thought process to me?
There were two reasons I decided to call:
A) I hadn't really been hitting anything all night, and this was the best opportunity by far with 20 BB's left on the river.
B ) I had pointpointed the oppoenent as a solid player. Tight, but aggressive when required. For this reason I thought he may have opened betting on the turn to inflate the pot should he hit his flush. Especially given that the table was fairly non-aggressive generally, so a re-raise was unlikely unless someone had a monster hand.
The river is a clear check for me also.
They are my thoughts anyway, I would wait and see what the better players have to say though lol
As you say, the table was mostly passive and by nature were calling min raises, I decided to limp cos a)I had a decent stack in the bounty hunter, and b -looking at your stack I don’t think I could call a shove by you pre flop.
Reason for not betting the turn? It kinda tells everyone what I have if a heart comes on the river, Your bet sizing on the river gave me the chance to shove, unlucky on hitting the wrong 3.
- Live cashing streak (of two ..) is over. Finished in about 27th/28th out of 140 ish. Top 17 cash.
- Yet again, I was the tightest player at the table by some margin. But, I don't necessarily think that's the wrong strategy, even though it's unusual (apparently).
- Relatively card dead all night. I did manage to get a few outrageous bluffs through, but I don't think I'm picking my spots well to be honest.
- I need to learn to defend my big blind considerably more.
- I need a lot of work on the ranges people will raise and call with from each position, along with understanding range advantage in more detail. I can usually get there, but it takes me over the 30 second time limit! I'm a slow thinker ..
If any of you guys feel you have anything to add in terms of what I should be working on (based on your play with me), please do let me know.
Oh, and what is the ruling in live poker about seeing other people's cards? I started off on a table in seat #4, and could consistently see the cards of the guy in seat #3 as he wasn't covering them when checking what he had. He eventually busted, and incredibly I had the same situation with the guy who replaced him! Excluding any moral arguments, what are the rules on this? Could I get DQ'd if caught looking?
You can't get disqualified for seeing his cards if he is being careless. You COULD be disqualified I suppose if you were deliberately & repeatedly sneaking a look at his cards, but it's still his responsibility to protect his hand.
With regards to seeing another player’s cards, I don’t play live much but think the unwritten rule is warn them early that you can see them, then if they keep doing it say nothing and just take advantage of it
F: It isn't the easiest board to hit in the history of the world, but definitely a board a limp call range will connect with some of the time, moreso when your have 2 of them. From the obvious hands like 89s or t9s to hands like 86s or T7s, basically random hands that they shouldn't have but are going to have because people don't play perfectly, especially people limping. With a hand that has no nut potential and some showdown value. I'd prefer to check and get 2 decent streets of value on A/K turns. That's the best way to punish passive players; win decent pots with top pair good kicker vs a weak top pair they shouldn't even have. I'd much rather cbet a hand like JT/ J9s w a bdfd. It has no showdown and more backdoor potential. Betting flop makes it hard to get value down the line when we do improve with AK, because you fold out all their Kx Ax high's immediately so when you do hit you have no weaker Ax and Kx to get value from and end up mostly getting them to fold their middle pair.
T: About the nut worst card. Connects really well with villain's range of hands that call the flop. AK is basically just always behind now but bluffing it off feels suicidal. Easy check. Good spot to go really go big if we do have the goods.
R: This is where your thought process is the most flawed. ' Another check. I have to bet here, and am probably ahead.' Very conflicting sentence. If you perceive yourself as probably being ahead, why would you have to bet? Just check and win most the time? Betting is just donating extra money for when you are behind. I also would like to know why you think your probably ahead. It seems like a spot where your almost definitely behind. Very very hard to pinpoint worse hands that call your massive flop bet that can't beat ace high after the 8 on the turn. Also the river pairing the board probably makes it feel like a more comfortable call for a lot of villain's hand, especially vs your bet check bet line (used to be called the suicide line because it never works!) As played think just check river and mainly lose.
R RR: Villain can have pretty much every nutted hand so it really isn't that surprising that you would face a raise here.