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Diary of a determined player

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    peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634
    I played another live 6-max yesterday at DTD, and hit the final table ultimately finishing 7th (they have seven on final tables, rather than six) for £225.

    Two live cashes in a row, happy at that obviously, but the over-riding emotion right now is being fairly downhearted actually.

    All the way through the tournament when making decisions and eventually having to show my cards, other people (not necessarily people involved in the hand) were constantly pulling an expression which suggested they were thinking "he played that really bizarrely" or "what is he doing". But based my own analysis of my play, for the most part I thought it was fine. In most cases, I can't work out why people looked so quizzical after my showdowns.

    It's difficult for me to give specific hand examples because I have the memory of a goldfish. However, I do remember one pot where the board ran out 6KQJ3, opponent (who I pinpointed as a good player) raises on the river, I call with 55 and he had a pair of 3X. We then got into a discussion about the hand and he couldn't seem to get his head around why I would call with the 5's. My argument was that I knew he didn't have anything because he had been playing super aggressively and fairly loosely, but didn't raise on the flop or turn, so I knew he probably didn't have it. I'm rambling at this point, but that was just one example of (perhaps) a bitter player. I was getting these looks from people on the rail sometimes though?!

    I'm going to do something to see if I can improve my post-flop decision making this weekend. I have a plan! Will report back over the weekend.

    On the money bubble (15 players remaining) I was the big chip leader, so to only finish 7th is pretty disappointing. I do have to admit that at around about 3AM, I lost my concentration and focus completely. It was a long tournament! The money bubble alone lasted for about an hour.

    One more thing I have got in my head .. excluding the promotional DTD150 event I did so well at last weekend .. these 6-max events at DTD offer considerably less opportunity for a higher income per hour compared to the Sky Poker online events. Throw into the mix that I have to drive 45 minutes each way to get there - I'm questioning if it is worth it. Although, Sky Poker seems vastly more difficult than at DTD* and also DTD has longer blind levels so less variance. It's just something random I'm thinking about. I haven't cashed on Sky Poker in about 30 MTT's now! It's getting embarrassing.

    * So far in these live events I seem to constantly be the tightest player at the table. However, I think that's what is getting me deep in the tournaments. With 20 or 30 minute blinds, and such large stacks, you can really just wait for premium hands. I'm not sure why no-one else appears to follow this strategy though .. :/
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    peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634
    Just played the Avenger Rebuy B/Hunter, had two bullets, lost both. Got pretty unlucky I feel, mainly to @madprof who's crushing it right now. I do feel like I played really well though so pretty happy.

    This hand really made me realise that I have improved considerably as a player. I would never have made this call a few months back, but now, I knew I was ahead. Good read, but unlucky.
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    ryan1976Small blind20.0020.002770.00
    DONATE2MEBig blind40.0060.002290.00
    Your hole cards
    • 4
    • 4
    jawzindawzFold
    peter27Raise120.00180.003480.00
    madprofCall120.00300.001520.00
    scaraman18Fold
    ryan1976Call100.00400.002670.00
    DONATE2MEFold
    Flop
    • 9
    • J
    • J
    ryan1976Check
    peter27Check
    madprofBet200.00600.001320.00
    ryan1976Fold
    peter27Call200.00800.003280.00
    Turn
    • 7
    peter27Check
    madprofAll-in1320.002120.000.00
    peter27Call1320.003440.001960.00
    peter27Show
    • 4
    • 4
    madprofShow
    • 10
    • Q
    River
    • 7
    madprofWinTwo Pairs, Jacks and 7s3440.003440.00
    Would love to get an analysis about how you guys thought both myself and madprof played the hand. Particularly interested about what you think of his shove on the turn, it doesn't feel like the right play to me. Although, he's still in and I'm not, so I might well be wrong. He's a very tough player to play against, hope he goes deep.

    The baron online run continues!
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    hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    What range do you think you're up against when he bets flop and shoves turn?
    How does 44 play vs that range?

    Kinda pointless to look at one hand in isolation where you perceive yourself to get unlucky.
    Yes, on this occasion 44 was still ahead when all the chips went in (albeit not massively ahead, and you're actually behind on the flop) but if you played this hand 100 times how often do you think 44 is gonna be good?

    Even if you're not up against a made hand, on this type of board/texture/betting action you're often going to be facing a lot of equity and thus a lot of cards to dodge twice. One draw gets there on the turn, any flush draw is highly likely to have 2 live over cards and maybe some straight equity too.

    If you're ahead with 44 then it's often only marginally ahead, if you're behind then you're way way behind; these are not great spots to get loads of chips in.

    For the record I think Prof has played it fine.
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    MynaFrettMynaFrett Member Posts: 724
    Agree with @hhyftrftdr 's analysis apart from the bit about Prof playing it fine - fine play post flop with QT but calling a HJ open here from CO with QTo is not good.
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    MattBatesMattBates Member Posts: 4,118
    On the turn you are only 54.55% against his exact hand and against his range I am not sure how good a call it is. If he has Q10cc which he would play in the same way we are only 43% to win. Plus there is all the hands that have us in terrible shape that we are up against.

    You say about longer blind levels but I doubt levels are longer live when you factor in hands per level.

    I wouldn't be caring about people's views who are commenting about how you played a hand. Live poker seems to attract a lot of hand analysis and a lot of it is pretty bad. However, from the sounds of it you are making some hero calls which is fine to do if you think you are ahead when you piece together a hand but seems like you are making some pretty thin calls and I would be aware that people will adjust especially if they are playing you a lot. Also, seems like your opponents could be bluffing with better when you are calling in your 55 example.

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    FeelGroggyFeelGroggy Member Posts: 824
    It seems like your being dangerously results orientated. You are perceiving the 44 call as being good and a sign of improvement because he happened to have part of his range that was a semi bluff, whereas if he had the value portion of his range you would feel like you've gone backwards. You are too emotionally invested in the specific result of each hand and attributing it to getting better/worse when the reality of poker is you can play hands perfectly and lose and also play horribly and win. You need to consider if your play was correct v.s the range of perceived hands he can have and not his exact holding.

    FWIW I think it's a pretty easy check fold flop situation. In the cut off vs a hijack open this is a board he should hit extremely well, even moreso as Prof is going to play hands like JTo or J8s/j7s preflop that most won't. 44 is going to play terribly on all turns and rivers that don't contain a 4, and regardless of how weak he cbets, he is still going to have plenty of equity vs you and the possibility to bluff you off the hand on various runouts. Most/ all his bluffs will have at least a gutshot. He has to get through 2 other opponents so it's unlikely he bets anything weaker. Because a lot of his holdings have a lot of equity/ are value bets your going to face turn aggression a decent amount with a hand that plays very badly on every turn in the deck.

    It seems like your trying to combat aggressive players with relentless stationing and while this is valid in some situations with some holdings this really is not one of them. Try and think about the range of hands Prof has preflop and the hands he might take this with. On the turn your kind of praying he has QT, perhaps KT or a flush draw, which have 45% equity, whenever he has anything legitimate you literally have 4.5% equity and he might protection shove a hand as weak as 9x here. If 55% equity is a best case and likely optimistic situation when calling off a 1.6x pot bet, you should probably fold. What you've really done is compound a flop mistake with a turn mistake because the 7 is an effective brick vs a turn shove sizing, only improving 4 potential combos of T8s.

    Prof should clearly fold preflop, but he isn't playing tournaments to sit around and wait for premiums. I might not have played postflop exactly the same as him, but his line is certainly okay. Despite being the one to win the hand with the least equity, I would say I prefer the way Prof has played his hand than the way you have played yours. If your against players you perceive as overly aggressive and want to bluffcatch use hands that you can navigate down the streets more effectively with, like 9x, TT-AA JT QJ here and be prepared to fold some of them on certain runouts.
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    MynaFrettMynaFrett Member Posts: 724
    ^^^

    He's back :)
    Always love reading your analysis @FeelGroggy
    I think it would be +EV to trawl through this forum finding every spot you've broken down like this - screenshot, printout, hole punch, ring-bind..
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    CammykazeCammykaze Member Posts: 1,397
    peter27 said:

    I played another live 6-max yesterday at DTD, and hit the final table ultimately finishing 7th (they have seven on final tables, rather than six) for £225.

    Two live cashes in a row, happy at that obviously, but the over-riding emotion right now is being fairly downhearted actually.

    All the way through the tournament when making decisions and eventually having to show my cards, other people (not necessarily people involved in the hand) were constantly pulling an expression which suggested they were thinking "he played that really bizarrely" or "what is he doing". But based my own analysis of my play, for the most part I thought it was fine. In most cases, I can't work out why people looked so quizzical after my showdowns.

    It's difficult for me to give specific hand examples because I have the memory of a goldfish. However, I do remember one pot where the board ran out 6KQJ3, opponent (who I pinpointed as a good player) raises on the river, I call with 55 and he had a pair of 3X. We then got into a discussion about the hand and he couldn't seem to get his head around why I would call with the 5's. My argument was that I knew he didn't have anything because he had been playing super aggressively and fairly loosely, but didn't raise on the flop or turn, so I knew he probably didn't have it. I'm rambling at this point, but that was just one example of (perhaps) a bitter player. I was getting these looks from people on the rail sometimes though?!

    I'm going to do something to see if I can improve my post-flop decision making this weekend. I have a plan! Will report back over the weekend.

    On the money bubble (15 players remaining) I was the big chip leader, so to only finish 7th is pretty disappointing. I do have to admit that at around about 3AM, I lost my concentration and focus completely. It was a long tournament! The money bubble alone lasted for about an hour.

    One more thing I have got in my head .. excluding the promotional DTD150 event I did so well at last weekend .. these 6-max events at DTD offer considerably less opportunity for a higher income per hour compared to the Sky Poker online events. Throw into the mix that I have to drive 45 minutes each way to get there - I'm questioning if it is worth it. Although, Sky Poker seems vastly more difficult than at DTD* and also DTD has longer blind levels so less variance. It's just something random I'm thinking about. I haven't cashed on Sky Poker in about 30 MTT's now! It's getting embarrassing.

    * So far in these live events I seem to constantly be the tightest player at the table. However, I think that's what is getting me deep in the tournaments. With 20 or 30 minute blinds, and such large stacks, you can really just wait for premium hands. I'm not sure why no-one else appears to follow this strategy though .. :/

    Live is good for a change and online is so convenient. I have a good/hate thing with Live Poker, enjoy the social aspect of it but hate the dreaded hand analysis and post-mortems from the so called table experts. Sounds like they are trying to put you off your game and getting you to 2nd guess yourself. It's a game involving money so some do anything to gain an edge. Stick with your game and stay confident.
  • Options
    madprofmadprof Member Posts: 3,299
    2 cashes in your first 2 live tournaments? I wouldn't be too worried about your game!

    Good fun playing with you last night

    GLGL
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    CammykazeCammykaze Member Posts: 1,397
    On the hand vs madprof. The turn call is very....meh!

    If he's bluffing he has outs, if he has it your about dead. Others have analysed the hand very well and likely better than I could so no need to say much more.

  • Options
    peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634
    edited June 2019
    Interesting analysis. I'm not gonna lie, it took me a good few days to absorb all that. When I initially read some of those comments I was pretty angry because I felt like I made a superb play. I even thought to myself "if that's not a good play then I literally have no idea what I'm doing here". But, this is good. Painful. But good. I'm here to become a better player, and sometimes that's going to hurt my pride a little! I do see where you're all coming from, and can now see the mistakes I made.

    I think there's something else at play here though. This may make me sound bonkers, but in that hand at the time, I knew he had the flush draw. I can't really explain why .. I didn't have any specific notes on madprof, but I just felt it. I don't know if that's instinct, or I'm sub-consciously making notes based on prior play, but I was certain. Strange situation.

    Based on your feedback, and excluding any strong feeling (which happens extremely rarely by the way), I would certainly now play the hand a different way, so thanks for the advice to everyone who chipped in.
    MattBates said:

    You say about longer blind levels but I doubt levels are longer live when you factor in hands per level.

    I wouldn't be caring about people's views who are commenting about how you played a hand. Live poker seems to attract a lot of hand analysis and a lot of it is pretty bad.

    Cammykaze said:

    I have a good/hate thing with Live Poker, enjoy the social aspect of it but hate the dreaded hand analysis and post-mortems from the so called table experts. Sounds like they are trying to put you off your game and getting you to 2nd guess yourself.

    Matt, I hadn't even considered that less hands are played in live poker over the same duration as online poker; fantastic point. But, I do still believe how tight I've been playing is what has got me those cashes. Sample size is only two though, so who knows!

    I did think that people are sensing my inexperience and trying to throw me off my game with the looks I've been getting. It's the people doing this on the rail which really concerns me. It's not as if they have anything to gain! I'll try not to let it impact my play of course. It does remain a worry though. Perhaps there's an element of my social anxieties which are making me feel uneasy in that situation. But I'll get over it with continued exposure.

    Played the £6,000 Gold Rush tonight. Made 75p profit in bountys, but yet again didn't make the cash spots. It's now about 33 online tournaments since I've properly cashed! I do seem able to consistently get deep into tournaments, but then bust out 20 or so spots before the money. *shrug*
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    hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    ''I knew he had the flush draw''

    But he had the straight draw....
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    MattBatesMattBates Member Posts: 4,118

    ''I knew he had the flush draw''

    But he had the straight draw....

    Was talking about a similar spot when playing live
  • Options
    hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    MattBates said:

    ''I knew he had the flush draw''

    But he had the straight draw....

    Was talking about a similar spot when playing live
    A live hand vs madprof?

    ''I think there's something else at play here though. This may make me sound bonkers, but in that hand at the time, I knew he had the flush draw. I can't really explain why .. I didn't have any specific notes on madprof, but I just felt it. I don't know if that's instinct, or I'm sub-consciously making notes based on prior play, but I was certain. Strange situation''
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    peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634
    It was a typing error, I meant straight draw.

    Never played madprof live, as far as I know.
  • Options
    TheEdge949TheEdge949 Member Posts: 5,180
    peter27 said:

    I played another live 6-max yesterday at DTD, and hit the final table ultimately finishing 7th (they have seven on final tables, rather than six) for £225.

    Two live cashes in a row, happy at that obviously, but the over-riding emotion right now is being fairly downhearted actually.

    All the way through the tournament when making decisions and eventually having to show my cards, other people (not necessarily people involved in the hand) were constantly pulling an expression which suggested they were thinking "he played that really bizarrely" or "what is he doing". But based my own analysis of my play, for the most part I thought it was fine. In most cases, I can't work out why people looked so quizzical after my showdowns.

    It's difficult for me to give specific hand examples because I have the memory of a goldfish. However, I do remember one pot where the board ran out 6KQJ3, opponent (who I pinpointed as a good player) raises on the river, I call with 55 and he had a pair of 3X. We then got into a discussion about the hand and he couldn't seem to get his head around why I would call with the 5's. My argument was that I knew he didn't have anything because he had been playing super aggressively and fairly loosely, but didn't raise on the flop or turn, so I knew he probably didn't have it. I'm rambling at this point, but that was just one example of (perhaps) a bitter player. I was getting these looks from people on the rail sometimes though?!

    I'm going to do something to see if I can improve my post-flop decision making this weekend. I have a plan! Will report back over the weekend.

    On the money bubble (15 players remaining) I was the big chip leader, so to only finish 7th is pretty disappointing. I do have to admit that at around about 3AM, I lost my concentration and focus completely. It was a long tournament! The money bubble alone lasted for about an hour.

    One more thing I have got in my head .. excluding the promotional DTD150 event I did so well at last weekend .. these 6-max events at DTD offer considerably less opportunity for a higher income per hour compared to the Sky Poker online events. Throw into the mix that I have to drive 45 minutes each way to get there - I'm questioning if it is worth it. Although, Sky Poker seems vastly more difficult than at DTD* and also DTD has longer blind levels so less variance. It's just something random I'm thinking about. I haven't cashed on Sky Poker in about 30 MTT's now! It's getting embarrassing.

    * So far in these live events I seem to constantly be the tightest player at the table. However, I think that's what is getting me deep in the tournaments. With 20 or 30 minute blinds, and such large stacks, you can really just wait for premium hands. I'm not sure why no-one else appears to follow this strategy though .. :/

    Hi Peter,

    Sorry about the delay in replying to this.

    Firstly, IGNORE the rail and any comments eminating from there. In my experience people on the rail are either "experts" who for some reason never seem to have the resources to play, players who have already been eliminated from the tourney or what I term poker groupies. You see them in every casino basically being a gopher for certain players, placing blackjack bets and such like, in the hope of grubbing a few chips. They spend hours there drinking free coffee etc and basically offering their expert opinions to anyone who'll listen. So tune them out.

    The longer it goes the looser most players become so really stick in there, it seems that after 2.30 everybody is more interested in getting home and start talking about deals etc.
    This also explains why so many play live events like an online turbo, everbody wants to win it in the first 2 hours, dont be one of them. Use the clock play the levels properly and wait for those good hands then punish those action junkies.

    Seems like you're transitioning well.

    Keep it up

    Mark
  • Options
    peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634

    peter27 said:

    I played another live 6-max yesterday at DTD, and hit the final table ultimately finishing 7th (they have seven on final tables, rather than six) for £225.

    Two live cashes in a row, happy at that obviously, but the over-riding emotion right now is being fairly downhearted actually.

    All the way through the tournament when making decisions and eventually having to show my cards, other people (not necessarily people involved in the hand) were constantly pulling an expression which suggested they were thinking "he played that really bizarrely" or "what is he doing". But based my own analysis of my play, for the most part I thought it was fine. In most cases, I can't work out why people looked so quizzical after my showdowns.

    It's difficult for me to give specific hand examples because I have the memory of a goldfish. However, I do remember one pot where the board ran out 6KQJ3, opponent (who I pinpointed as a good player) raises on the river, I call with 55 and he had a pair of 3X. We then got into a discussion about the hand and he couldn't seem to get his head around why I would call with the 5's. My argument was that I knew he didn't have anything because he had been playing super aggressively and fairly loosely, but didn't raise on the flop or turn, so I knew he probably didn't have it. I'm rambling at this point, but that was just one example of (perhaps) a bitter player. I was getting these looks from people on the rail sometimes though?!

    I'm going to do something to see if I can improve my post-flop decision making this weekend. I have a plan! Will report back over the weekend.

    On the money bubble (15 players remaining) I was the big chip leader, so to only finish 7th is pretty disappointing. I do have to admit that at around about 3AM, I lost my concentration and focus completely. It was a long tournament! The money bubble alone lasted for about an hour.

    One more thing I have got in my head .. excluding the promotional DTD150 event I did so well at last weekend .. these 6-max events at DTD offer considerably less opportunity for a higher income per hour compared to the Sky Poker online events. Throw into the mix that I have to drive 45 minutes each way to get there - I'm questioning if it is worth it. Although, Sky Poker seems vastly more difficult than at DTD* and also DTD has longer blind levels so less variance. It's just something random I'm thinking about. I haven't cashed on Sky Poker in about 30 MTT's now! It's getting embarrassing.

    * So far in these live events I seem to constantly be the tightest player at the table. However, I think that's what is getting me deep in the tournaments. With 20 or 30 minute blinds, and such large stacks, you can really just wait for premium hands. I'm not sure why no-one else appears to follow this strategy though .. :/

    Hi Peter,

    Sorry about the delay in replying to this.

    Firstly, IGNORE the rail and any comments eminating from there. In my experience people on the rail are either "experts" who for some reason never seem to have the resources to play, players who have already been eliminated from the tourney or what I term poker groupies. You see them in every casino basically being a gopher for certain players, placing blackjack bets and such like, in the hope of grubbing a few chips. They spend hours there drinking free coffee etc and basically offering their expert opinions to anyone who'll listen. So tune them out.

    The longer it goes the looser most players become so really stick in there, it seems that after 2.30 everybody is more interested in getting home and start talking about deals etc.
    This also explains why so many play live events like an online turbo, everbody wants to win it in the first 2 hours, dont be one of them. Use the clock play the levels properly and wait for those good hands then punish those action junkies.

    Seems like you're transitioning well.

    Keep it up

    Mark
    Thanks for the kind words. Fascinated by the "poker groupies", had no idea that was a thing!

    Find your words regarding my tight play very comforting. I'll continue to play sensibly :)
  • Options
    peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634
    I think I just had my best ever tournament.

    It was a £12,000 Major Direct Satellite and I was completely dominant. Led pretty much from start to finish, knocked out about 50% of the field myself. It went insanely well.

    I was getting exceptionally lucky with flops, but I also think I played well. I was able to pick up a number of chips when I had no hand at all through thinking about what range of hands the player could have, and what range of hands they would be thinking I had - really pumped after that :)

    Obviously I won the seat to the main event, not sure if that counts as a cash or not though. In my mind, my online cashless run is on-going.
  • Options
    peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634
    I thought I would last more than 29 minutes!! Man, that was brutal.

    I don't even think I played that badly, just found myself in a lot of difficult spots. Very aggressive table. Here are a few key hands. Feel free to leave comments.
  • Options
    peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    Sharki0Small blind20.0020.0010080.00
    4KingDonkBig blind40.0060.009810.00
    Your hole cards
    • 8
    • J
    carlingFold
    drb17Fold
    RAKKKIRaise120.00180.009880.00
    peter27Call120.00300.009600.00
    Sharki0Fold
    4KingDonkCall80.00380.009730.00
    Flop
    • 5
    • 9
    • 8
    4KingDonkCheck
    RAKKKICheck
    peter27Bet200.00580.009400.00
    4KingDonkCall200.00780.009530.00
    RAKKKIFold
    Turn
    • 7
    4KingDonkCheck
    peter27Check
    River
    • J
    4KingDonkBet520.001300.009010.00
    peter27Call520.001820.008880.00
    4KingDonkShow
    • 2
    • 5
    peter27Show
    • 8
    • J
    peter27WinTwo Pairs, Jacks and 8s1820.0010700.00
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