On the J8 hand, are you calling to look to get creative post flop on missed boards?
To follow up on my question.
You are very deep stacked in the tourney, it's early and you are in position however J8o is a weak gappy hand that can lead to trouble vs a tough opponent. 45s for example is a much better hand to call with this early to try and hit the flop hard.
Vs a weak player its probably fine as you will be able to outplay opponent by either extracting value when you hit or bluffing on the right boards.
I am not a big MTT player so will be interesting to see what others have to say about these types of hands.
Is flatting j8 off after a 3x raise common in your play?
In that specific situation; a 3x raise from the CO, with me on the button, on an aggressive table, I would be flatting somewhere between 10-30% of the time.
On the J8 hand, are you calling to look to get creative post flop on missed boards?
To follow up on my question.
You are very deep stacked in the tourney, it's early and you are in position however J8o is a weak gappy hand that can lead to trouble vs a tough opponent. 45s for example is a much better hand to call with this early to try and hit the flop hard.
Vs a weak player its probably fine as you will be able to outplay opponent by either extracting value when you hit or bluffing on the right boards.
I am not a big MTT player so will be interesting to see what others have to say about these types of hands.
Not exactly. Given how aggressive the table was, I don't think getting creative with missed boards is the right strategy as I feel like I could have easily been shoved on with air. However, given the modest raise, and given that I felt like the player could be making that 3x bet from that position with a worse hand than mine, I was happy to see a flop. I was very conscious that it's the type of hand that could get me into trouble.
My online cashless streak is over after I finished 3rd in the £500 Turbo Bounty Hunter last night for £53.14 including head prizes. Need to build on this.
My online cashless streak is over after I finished 3rd in the £500 Turbo Bounty Hunter last night for £53.14 including head prizes. Need to build on this.
I don't understand your logic behind "I'll call a 3x raise from the CO with J8o on the button 10-30% of the time"
What do you mean? How did you arrive at this figure?
Well, it's not a rule. I won't do it less if I'm at 31%. It's just an estimation of how many times I'll make that move with cards in that sort of range, depending on how the table is playing.
I feel comfortable with the way I played until the turn, and then I'm not sure if my bet was correct or not. I still think he has quite a wide range at this point, he could still have a pair of 8's. Obviously when he shoves, I realise I'm behind, but I was already pot commited at that point.
Was a satellite for tonight's main event by the way.
Ahh, just got knocked out of tonight's mini. Frustrating tournament.
Started on a table with several players being unbelievably aggressive and loose, but wasn't getting the cards to exploit that. Then had a run of really good hands, and the table settled down too. Managed to jump into the top ten on chip count and knock out a few players.
Then lost the majority of my stack making an unorthodox play, but justified in my own mind with the opposition player seemingly shoving/calling with anything. Unfortunately, he had me beat this time
Just finished 2nd in a £12k Sunday Major Direct Satellite but didn't get a seat sadly.
This game can be pretty demotivating at times because it's almost impossible to tell if I'm improving or not. I've mentioned this before and there's no real answer. I'm just ranting.
Just finished 2nd in a £12k Sunday Major Direct Satellite but didn't get a seat sadly.
This game can be pretty demotivating at times because it's almost impossible to tell if I'm improving or not. I've mentioned this before and there's no real answer. I'm just ranting.
I thought your play seemed stronger with 6 on the table than when short-handed. Seemed to be trying to force the pace when 8/7/3 left. I could be wrong tho-I was playing a lot of tables at that stage.
In relation to exit hand-have to bluff heads up-we've all done it-hard to bluff me off a hand when I've actually got what you were representing...
I feel comfortable with the way I played until the turn, and then I'm not sure if my bet was correct or not. I still think he has quite a wide range at this point, he could still have a pair of 8's. Obviously when he shoves, I realise I'm behind, but I was already pot commited at that point.
Was a satellite for tonight's main event by the way.
Opponent has 20bb to start the hand and the 3x open combined with a c-bet which is also on the larger side threatens opponent with a pot size bet for the rest of his chips on the turn should he decide to call flop - was this by design or coincidence?
I do think your line is reasonable here as played given stack sizes.
Do you play the hand much differently here if stacks are deeper?
When effective stacks are a bit deeper than this and we hold this particular combination in this spot then I think we need to be checking the turn if we had decided to c-bet flop and especially so if we had chosen a c-bet on the larger side. Having the Tc in our hand reduces combinations of frontdoor flush draws our opponent could have and also combinations of KTo, QTo and T9 - the more draws we block/remove from our opponents continuing range the more weighted they become towards made hands and that's not great for us when we only have a marginal made hand ourselves and this actually makes a c-bet here a little bit thin and it may be better to start pot controlling with this exact combo of JTo immediately (or c-betting for a smaller size).
If we did decide to bet flop another reason for slowing down on this turn in particular is that it favours the BB's defending range over our CO opening range - BB can reasonably have all combinations of hands we don't open here; J8, J7, T9o and 87o (we might open J8s) and whenever this is the case we should mostly be slowing down on turns - it's important to be aware of how preflop ranges interact with different flops and then which turn cards are 'good' for our range and 'bad' for our opponents range and vice versa in different spots.
The concept of range interaction on different flops, turns and rivers is by FAR the toughest concept to get your head around in poker and it's something I'm slowly getting to grips with the more I play but I'm still making horrendous errors in game by betting in spots that are clear checks and checking in spots which are clear bets. There are lots of spots in between that are fine as bets or checks (on earlier streets at least) with varying frequencies but there are spots where betting is far superior to checking or checking is far superior to betting and it's hugely important to know why that is and recognise those spots...
Comments
You are very deep stacked in the tourney, it's early and you are in position however J8o is a weak gappy hand that can lead to trouble vs a tough opponent. 45s for example is a much better hand to call with this early to try and hit the flop hard.
Vs a weak player its probably fine as you will be able to outplay opponent by either extracting value when you hit or bluffing on the right boards.
I am not a big MTT player so will be interesting to see what others have to say about these types of hands.
What do you mean? How did you arrive at this figure?
https://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=706713
Was a satellite for tonight's main event by the way.
@peter27
Hi Peter,
This thread is in Poker Clinic, which is fine if that's what you wish, but it'd get more views in Poker Chat.
If you want me to move it across, just say & I'll sort it.
Moved.
If you want it moved back to Poker Clinic at any time, just holler.
Started on a table with several players being unbelievably aggressive and loose, but wasn't getting the cards to exploit that. Then had a run of really good hands, and the table settled down too. Managed to jump into the top ten on chip count and knock out a few players.
Then lost the majority of my stack making an unorthodox play, but justified in my own mind with the opposition player seemingly shoving/calling with anything. Unfortunately, he had me beat this time
This game can be pretty demotivating at times because it's almost impossible to tell if I'm improving or not. I've mentioned this before and there's no real answer. I'm just ranting.
In relation to exit hand-have to bluff heads up-we've all done it-hard to bluff me off a hand when I've actually got what you were representing...
Opponent has 20bb to start the hand and the 3x open combined with a c-bet which is also on the larger side threatens opponent with a pot size bet for the rest of his chips on the turn should he decide to call flop - was this by design or coincidence?
I do think your line is reasonable here as played given stack sizes.
Do you play the hand much differently here if stacks are deeper?
When effective stacks are a bit deeper than this and we hold this particular combination in this spot then I think we need to be checking the turn if we had decided to c-bet flop and especially so if we had chosen a c-bet on the larger side. Having the Tc in our hand reduces combinations of frontdoor flush draws our opponent could have and also combinations of KTo, QTo and T9 - the more draws we block/remove from our opponents continuing range the more weighted they become towards made hands and that's not great for us when we only have a marginal made hand ourselves and this actually makes a c-bet here a little bit thin and it may be better to start pot controlling with this exact combo of JTo immediately (or c-betting for a smaller size).
If we did decide to bet flop another reason for slowing down on this turn in particular is that it favours the BB's defending range over our CO opening range - BB can reasonably have all combinations of hands we don't open here; J8, J7, T9o and 87o (we might open J8s) and whenever this is the case we should mostly be slowing down on turns - it's important to be aware of how preflop ranges interact with different flops and then which turn cards are 'good' for our range and 'bad' for our opponents range and vice versa in different spots.
The concept of range interaction on different flops, turns and rivers is by FAR the toughest concept to get your head around in poker and it's something I'm slowly getting to grips with the more I play but I'm still making horrendous errors in game by betting in spots that are clear checks and checking in spots which are clear bets. There are lots of spots in between that are fine as bets or checks (on earlier streets at least) with varying frequencies but there are spots where betting is far superior to checking or checking is far superior to betting and it's hugely important to know why that is and recognise those spots...
...sorry, I went a bit off topic