half the problem is in the uk is conforming to people who call racist card everybody too scared to do owt because your called racist if you say anything about jews your zenophobic oh and if you speak like me your classed as a bigot because it does not conform to PC views End of the day she joined a terrorist organisation it should be made very hard for her to come back just might make it a deterrent to others
So far on this thread I see no evidence of anyone calling you a bigot or any other names. However... You on the other hand have used the terms “Do Gooders, PC Brigade, You Lot, Namby Pamby” It doesn’t help the debate really does it...
half the problem is in the uk is conforming to people who call racist card everybody too scared to do owt because your called racist if you say anything about jews your zenophobic oh and if you speak like me your classed as a bigot because it does not conform to PC views End of the day she joined a terrorist organisation it should be made very hard for her to come back just might make it a deterrent to others
So far on this thread I see no evidence of anyone calling you a bigot or any other names. However... You on the other hand have used the terms “Do Gooders, PC Brigade, You Lot, Namby Pamby” It doesn’t help the debate really does it...
I don't think Mason was particularly referring to being called anything on here , but in general . Whilst I don't agree with his views , he has a point about that ...a very pc world , not necessarily for the better .
This reflects appallingly on the UK government. Rendering a British citizen stateless, when they have just given birth into a refugee camp, is well beyond the pale. And the consequences of that decision is a deceased baby.
Speaking to the BBC on Friday, before it was confirmed that the baby had died, Mr Javid said: "Sadly there are probably many children, obviously perfectly innocent, who have been born in this war zone.
"I have nothing but sympathy for the children that have been dragged into this.
"This is a reminder of why it is so, so dangerous for anyone to be in this war zone."
But Conservative MP and former Justice Minister Phillip Lee urged the government to "reflect" on its "moral responsibility" for the tragedy.
He said that despite her "abhorrent views" the decision to remove Ms Begum's citizenship seemed "driven by populism and not by any principle I recognise".
The death of Ms Begum's child is tragic beyond belief, as was the death of her two other children. Given that she hates this country and was only returning for the benefit of her son I wonder if she will now give up her attempt to return?
From a personal point of view I certainly wouldn't let her back now, but I don't get to make that decision, legally I think she has to be allowed back and then go through the due process of the legal system to see what action is taken against her. This will probably cost millions of pounds, money that I think could be better spent.
The death of Ms Begum's child is tragic beyond belief, as was the death of her two other children. Given that she hates this country and was only returning for the benefit of her son I wonder if she will now give up her attempt to return?
From a personal point of view I certainly wouldn't let her back now, but I don't get to make that decision, legally I think she has to be allowed back and then go through the due process of the legal system to see what action is taken against her. This will probably cost millions of pounds, money that I think could be better spent.
On what grounds, legally or otherwise, wouldn't you ''let her back''?
The death of Ms Begum's child is tragic beyond belief, as was the death of her two other children. Given that she hates this country and was only returning for the benefit of her son I wonder if she will now give up her attempt to return?
From a personal point of view I certainly wouldn't let her back now, but I don't get to make that decision, legally I think she has to be allowed back and then go through the due process of the legal system to see what action is taken against her. This will probably cost millions of pounds, money that I think could be better spent.
On what grounds, legally or otherwise, wouldn't you ''let her back''?
'From a personal point of view I certainly wouldn't let her back now, but I don't get to make that decision, legally I think she has to be allowed back and then go through the due process of the legal system to see what action is taken against her. This will probably cost millions of pounds, money that I think could be better spent. '
I quite clearly stated the above. I don't think I need to clarify further.
The death of Ms Begum's child is tragic beyond belief, as was the death of her two other children. Given that she hates this country and was only returning for the benefit of her son I wonder if she will now give up her attempt to return?
From a personal point of view I certainly wouldn't let her back now, but I don't get to make that decision, legally I think she has to be allowed back and then go through the due process of the legal system to see what action is taken against her. This will probably cost millions of pounds, money that I think could be better spent.
On what grounds, legally or otherwise, wouldn't you ''let her back''?
'From a personal point of view I certainly wouldn't let her back now, but I don't get to make that decision, legally I think she has to be allowed back and then go through the due process of the legal system to see what action is taken against her. This will probably cost millions of pounds, money that I think could be better spent. '
I quite clearly stated the above. I don't think I need to clarify further.
No. Do you understand what ISIS stands for and wants to achieve? It's that really.
So you didn't ''quite clearly'' state anything then, other than the financial side of things.
If a British national went to Benidorm and, without provocation and totally random, brutally killed a fellow British holidaymaker, would you be happy with that person being allowed back in the country? Or do you think they should also be stripped of their British citizenship?
I quite clearly stated that 'legally I think she has to be allowed back and then go through the due process of the legal system to see what action is taken against her.' But you elected to ignore that part of my post.
Yes, I think the money spent on her case, prosecution costs and I presume the legal aid funded defense, could be spent on on any one of thousands of more deserving cases. But it wont be.
The 'British national went to Benidorm and, without provocation and totally random, brutally killed a fellow British holidaymaker, would you be happy with that person being allowed back in the country?' No I wouldn't, they should stand trial in the country they commited the crime. That doesn't seem to be an option in this case. Stripped of their British citizenship? Yes, I wouldn't have a problem with that, but again it's not my decision to make.
This thread was started by Tikay asking for people's opinions, I have given mine. I have no desire to keep having to defend my point of view and I suspect that that may be the reason why the vast majority of people don't bother posting on this type of thread.
I've not ignored anything. Legally you think she should return, but morally you don't think she should be allowed (you seemed reluctant to divulge this further) It's a stance I struggle to comprehend, along with the financial caveat as well.
Just curious to know at what point do you strip/not strip a British citizen of their citizenship?
Aside from running off to Syria to join ISIS, we don't know what crimes and to what severity Shamima Begum has committed. It doesn't seem to be the case that she was on the frontline, but many questions need to be asked.
She should have been brought back to this country, baby taken into care and have the correct authorities look into her case and bring about any criminal proceedings they deem appropriate.
It's a forum, where things are debated. If you don't want to debate or clarify stuff, then maybe it's advisable not to put forward your point of view, especially on a topic of this nature; you'd have to be pretty naïve not to expect further posts or questions when discussing a subject like this.
Feel free to dissect ^, I won't get my knickers twisted
I've not ignored anything. Legally you think she should return, but morally you don't think she should be allowed (you seemed reluctant to divulge this further) It's a stance I struggle to comprehend, along with the financial caveat as well.
Just curious to know at what point do you strip/not strip a British citizen of their citizenship?
Aside from running off to Syria to join ISIS, we don't know what crimes and to what severity Shamima Begum has committed. It doesn't seem to be the case that she was on the frontline, but many questions need to be asked.
She should have been brought back to this country, baby taken into care and have the correct authorities look into her case and bring about any criminal proceedings they deem appropriate.
It's a forum, where things are debated. If you don't want to debate or clarify stuff, then maybe it's advisable not to put forward your point of view, especially on a topic of this nature; you'd have to be pretty naïve not to expect further posts or questions when discussing a subject like this.
Feel free to dissect ^, I won't get my knickers twisted
I don't think anyone leaving this country to join ISIS should be allowed back, yes there is an argument that she was a minor when she left, she isn't now and has shown no remorse.
Strip someone of their citizenship? I guess the above would be enough for me, but legally she shouldn't have been stripped of her citizenship.
'Aside from running off to Syria to join ISIS' - that's a pretty glib comment - it's a terrorist organisation banned by the British government that wants to overthrow the Western world and has form for genocide, child abuse and slavery. Again I previously asked 'Do you understand what ISIS stands for and wants to achieve?' You didn't answer that.
Comments
However... You on the other hand have used the terms “Do Gooders, PC Brigade, You Lot, Namby Pamby”
It doesn’t help the debate really does it...
I don't think Mason was particularly referring to being called anything on here , but in general . Whilst I don't agree with his views , he has a point about that ...a very pc world , not necessarily for the better .
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/baby-son-isis-bride-shamima-15944695
But the number of people who seem to take delight that her (3rd) baby may have died saddens me.
The comments about this on Twitter - I've not seen Facebook - are repulsive.
People celebrating & laughing about the death of a month old baby? WTF is the matter with people?
faceless bigots racists and anything else that comes to mind all with a keyboard
its only gonna get worse too
This reflects appallingly on the UK government. Rendering a British citizen stateless, when they have just given birth into a refugee camp, is well beyond the pale. And the consequences of that decision is a deceased baby.
"I have nothing but sympathy for the children that have been dragged into this.
"This is a reminder of why it is so, so dangerous for anyone to be in this war zone."
But Conservative MP and former Justice Minister Phillip Lee urged the government to "reflect" on its "moral responsibility" for the tragedy.
He said that despite her "abhorrent views" the decision to remove Ms Begum's citizenship seemed "driven by populism and not by any principle I recognise".
From a personal point of view I certainly wouldn't let her back now, but I don't get to make that decision, legally I think she has to be allowed back and then go through the due process of the legal system to see what action is taken against her. This will probably cost millions of pounds, money that I think could be better spent.
'From a personal point of view I certainly wouldn't let her back now, but I don't get to make that decision, legally I think she has to be allowed back and then go through the due process of the legal system to see what action is taken against her. This will probably cost millions of pounds, money that I think could be better spent. '
I quite clearly stated the above. I don't think I need to clarify further.
So it's purely financial?
No. Do you understand what ISIS stands for and wants to achieve? It's that really.
So you didn't ''quite clearly'' state anything then, other than the financial side of things.
If a British national went to Benidorm and, without provocation and totally random, brutally killed a fellow British holidaymaker, would you be happy with that person being allowed back in the country? Or do you think they should also be stripped of their British citizenship?
Yes, I think the money spent on her case, prosecution costs and I presume the legal aid funded defense, could be spent on on any one of thousands of more deserving cases. But it wont be.
The 'British national went to Benidorm and, without provocation and totally random, brutally killed a fellow British holidaymaker, would you be happy with that person being allowed back in the country?' No I wouldn't, they should stand trial in the country they commited the crime. That doesn't seem to be an option in this case. Stripped of their British citizenship? Yes, I wouldn't have a problem with that, but again it's not my decision to make.
This thread was started by Tikay asking for people's opinions, I have given mine. I have no desire to keep having to defend my point of view and I suspect that that may be the reason why the vast majority of people don't bother posting on this type of thread.
Just curious to know at what point do you strip/not strip a British citizen of their citizenship?
Aside from running off to Syria to join ISIS, we don't know what crimes and to what severity Shamima Begum has committed. It doesn't seem to be the case that she was on the frontline, but many questions need to be asked.
She should have been brought back to this country, baby taken into care and have the correct authorities look into her case and bring about any criminal proceedings they deem appropriate.
It's a forum, where things are debated. If you don't want to debate or clarify stuff, then maybe it's advisable not to put forward your point of view, especially on a topic of this nature; you'd have to be pretty naïve not to expect further posts or questions when discussing a subject like this.
Feel free to dissect ^, I won't get my knickers twisted
Strip someone of their citizenship? I guess the above would be enough for me, but legally she shouldn't have been stripped of her citizenship.
'Aside from running off to Syria to join ISIS' - that's a pretty glib comment - it's a terrorist organisation banned by the British government that wants to overthrow the Western world and has form for genocide, child abuse and slavery. Again I previously asked 'Do you understand what ISIS stands for and wants to achieve?' You didn't answer that.