"Some kinds of bias, such as implicit race biases, are particularly troubling. This sort of bias means that people who – sincerely – report that they are not racist, and that they are committed to fair and non-discriminatory treatment, might nonetheless harbour implicit race biases, and be influenced by these biases in the way they behave. "
This includes some strange categories, like White Irish, White Other, etc.
The total stop and searches of white people makes up around half the total.
Although this does not take account of the population.
I think that if the headline was that around half of all stop and searches were of white people, then there is no headline.
What headline? It is a Government report.
I think even the most statistically challenged of us would assume that the % of white people in the UK was much higher than 50% and therefore the incidents are skewed by ethnicity.
One of their chosen highlights was:
between April 2018 and March 2019, there were 4 stop and searches for every 1,000 White people, compared with 38 for every 1,000 Black people
To me the windows seemed tinted. If they were truly "blacked out" then that is against the law and would justify a stop for a traffic offence. They don't appear to be have been a ticket for that (then or on previous stops) so I assume the tinting is within legal limits.
Bianca described the windows as "blacked out", I haven't seen the car but it's likely they are within legal limits since this isn't reported as an issue. Perhaps tinted windows is one of the profiling measures, I don't know.
Why assume that something else suspicious was going on, or that it is the black people inside the car who are responsible for escalating a situation and nothing to do with the police officers' attitudes?
Do you mean me or the police? Bianca stated that they left the normal route to avoid stopping at traffic lights. I don't know the route, but she said that they 're-joined the main road'. Not driving a direct route would again presumably be one of the profiling measures? It's not typical behaviour and could be seen as suspicious.
The police statement says that the car was breaking heavily then speeding off, being driven erratically. They also say the car had failed to stop when requested, which Bianca states in an interview with LBC where she said they wanted to get home first as they felt safer there.
Never stopped in a Nissan Duke and repeatedly stopped in a BMW and Mercedes and you don't think that seems like racial profiling?
The point was that if race was the only factor, they'd have been stopped in the Juke. What's changed is the car, not the colour of his skin. Perhaps it's an interaction of being young and having an expensive car, plus driving erratically (perhaps just 'enjoying' a sportier car?), plus seemingly taking strange turns to avoid the police.
1 for driving an old banger that the police checked over and gave me a ticket for a broken wing mirror. I had to get it fixed and produce my documents at my local station.
Sounds like the police did their job here since you were driving a vehicle that wasn't road-worthy. Did you escalate the situation by not pulling over initially, or refusing to leave the vehicle saying "what, what, I haven't done anything?"
1 for driving some drunken friends who decided to wave to our old school while there was a police car parked outside it. They followed and pulled me over and searched the car for drugs. They were very aggressive in tone "Are you known to us?", obviously thought my mates were taking the p*ss and waving at them.
Sounds like the police could have been less aggressive here, but made sense to pull you over since the chances of you having been drinking would have been higher given your friends drunken behaviour. Going to assume you stopped when asked, and complied with the officers despite their aggressive tone.
Haven't been stopped in 30 years since and driver nicer cars and tend not to have a car load of drunken mates and I am white.
I know black people who get stopped routinely without cause or charge and are fed up.
I have no doubt that if an individual is getting stopped routinely it's going to get on their wick. I still think the better option is to politely comply and explain how this keeps happening. Trying to de-escalate the situation by screaming at police doesn't seem a wise strategy.
The couple are accusing the police of racism in this case - although, it must be said, that no official complaint has yet been made - but Bianca has called for Cressida **** to resign?! Are you so convinced that this individual incident is racist in nature that you're happy for people to lose their jobs? You can't use other cases to back up the claim.
The police have a really tough job, why not make it easier by complying and talking to them? Seems they won't be able to talk to any black people in future for fear of being accused of being racist and shared all over social media.
Is it not for the couple to prove racism here rather than the police proving it isn't?
Do you have the proof you need to make a judgement?
The police statementsaid that at about 13:25 BST on Saturday officers from the Territorial Support Group "witnessed a vehicle with blacked-out windows that was driving suspiciously, including driving on the wrong side of the road". The statement added: "They indicated for it to stop but it failed to do so and made off at speed. The officers caught up with the vehicle when it stopped on Lanhill Road. The driver initially refused to get out of the car." After searching Williams and Dos Santos, and the vehicle, nothing was found and no arrests were made.
I think you are arguing in bad faith. You’ve decided it’s racism and there’s nothing anyone can say to put doubt in your mind.
We progressed from me thinking the windows were blacked out so they couldn’t see in (due wholly to the description given in the interview), to that they are tinted according to your knowledge of legal limits. I don’t know if you can see through them but if they are claiming they can see skin colour they can probably also determine age. It’s also quite possible that they ran an insurance check and got his age that way. Who knows.
I have tried to explain how it is possible to get racially biased outcomes without a model or system looking at race. The Harvard Internship case is very interesting if you’ve not read about it.
There are lots of correlates with race in society, and these can all be reasons why the Government statistics skew. Racial bias in itself does not constitute a problem. It’s when the assertion is that the racial bias exists because of racism. I don’t think I can try to make this point any clearer.
It’s possible that the entire system is constantly looking out for black people to stop and then not prosecute, though seems a little inefficient use of time.
Regardless of the environment you still need to look at the facts in the individual case. If a jury determined racism on evidence of this nature then everyone with all their various privileges beware.
What have I decided is racism exactly? I continually refer to racial bias not racism, although the outcomes can be the same.
Given the evidence of institutional racism and bias in our criminal justice system from the Macpherson report to the Lammy review, I think it is clear there is a problem.
I just think it is too easy to say comply and everything will be alright.
I have seen (and I think you agree) that the attitude and treatment by the officers concerned was disproportionate and managed badly.
You mentioned blacked out windows as an excuse for the stop. I watched the video, there was a tint but you could see through them. I reasonably assumed that if they were too dark then the police would have taken action on that on one of the 10 previous stops.
Presumably if they did the checks before the stop, they would also have discovered that the registered driver had no previous convictions or associations with criminal gangs.
On stopping the vehicle and seeing who was inside (through the open doors) I would have thought it pretty fair to assume that the couple and their 3 month old baby were not cruising the streets looking for a knife fight or a drive by shooting opportunity.
I never suggested the police were criminally racist. The article I linked to earlier talks about the difference bias and racism and I support the view.
The Police don’t need a reason to get you to pull over. Britain is a racist country she says. Can she back that up with some numbers? Of course, there were millions that turned out on ‘ protect our statues day’. Most of the vids I’ve seen on social media involving the stopping of cars, have the drivers acting very awkward, white, black or whatever, so things are likely to kick off. If you don’t comply with the law, as I did when I got stopped and searched, then you are undermining the police, expect some grief. I wonder how many black skinned people never got stopped or searched on said day. Another one for social media👏 Stay alert, behave.
What have I decided is racism exactly? I continually refer to racial bias not racism, although the outcomes can be the same.
The whole conversation as far as I could tell, was about whether or not the police had 'racially profiled' them. That is, used their skin colour as a determining factor in their request to stop and search them. The assertion is that if the same type of car was driving in the same way in the same location by someone of the same age, but that person was white then these same officers wouldn't have pulled them over.
Given the evidence of institutional racism and bias in our criminal justice system from the Macpherson report to the Lammy review, I think it is clear there is a problem.
There may be a problem on the whole, can we determine there was a problem in this particular case?
You mentioned blacked out windows as an excuse for the stop. I watched the video, there was a tint but you could see through them. I reasonably assumed that if they were too dark then the police would have taken action on that on one of the 10 previous stops.
I said it was likely a contributing factor, amongst the others I listed. The video was shot from within the car, so yes you can see through the windows. Would be a pretty bad design flaw otherwise!
Presumably if they did the checks before the stop, they would also have discovered that the registered driver had no previous convictions or associations with criminal gangs.
They had reason to stop the vehicle, no previous convictions necessary. I can't help but feel the whole thing was somewhat staged. Continuing to drive after flagged down, police report that they were slowing right down then speeding off, the video starts before the police car pulls up beside them, and there is laughing until "oh god!" they are taken by surprise!
On stopping the vehicle and seeing who was inside (through the open doors) I would have thought it pretty fair to assume that the couple and their 3 month old baby were not cruising the streets looking for a knife fight or a drive by shooting opportunity.
Asking them to stop and asking why they were driving erratically is fair enough, then they don't comply, etc etc.
I never suggested the police were criminally racist. The article I linked to earlier talks about the difference bias and racism and I support the view.
Are you on the 'all white people are racist even if they don't realise it' bandwagon?
The police have now referred themselves to the watchdog on this. I think that sends a message that they are pretty confident they can defend their position. We'll see.
In other news, here's another activist desperately looking to find racism to promote their profile, who decides that a fictional character in a children's book must be black owing to their 'frizzy hair'. Oops.
What the actual **** is this guy on about “Mr Thomas said there were "parallel themes" between the Grenfell fire, the killing of George Floyd in the US and the "disproportionate" number of coronavirus deaths among people from minority ethnic backgrounds”.
The officer involved seems to admit racial profiling. We don't get many black people round here and we have a problem with drug dealers from outside the area.
Are you on the 'all white people are racist even if they don't realise it' bandwagon?
The police have now referred themselves to the watchdog on this. I think that sends a message that they are pretty confident they can defend their position. We'll see.
No. many people have a racial bias though. Did you read the article I posted on the issue?
So referrals to the IOPC only happen if the Police are confident they are innocent? That's an interesting take on the fairness on the complaints procedure.
The officer involved seems to admit racial profiling. We don't get many black people round here and we have a problem with drug dealers from outside the area.
Well this is a strange one. They’re looking specifically for black men. Would be odd if they decided instead to stop a white one for the reasons they are looking.
Are you on the 'all white people are racist even if they don't realise it' bandwagon?
The police have now referred themselves to the watchdog on this. I think that sends a message that they are pretty confident they can defend their position. We'll see.
No. many people have a racial bias though. Did you read the article I posted on the issue?
So referrals to the IOPC only happen if the Police are confident they are innocent? That's an interesting take on the fairness on the complaints procedure.
Yes I read the article. There’s more to say on implicit bias and bias training, but I find it a little rich to point to this when assuming that all police are dealing with all stop and search in the same way. That not a bias that should be trained out?
As for IOPC, they are complaining against themselves. Bianca Williams did not officially complain. This suggests to me that they want all the information out in the open where it can be seen. This is clearly different to when a complaint is made against them.
Yes I read the article. There’s more to say on implicit bias and bias training, but I find it a little rich to point to this when assuming that all police are dealing with all stop and search in the same way. That not a bias that should be trained out?
As for IOPC, they are complaining against themselves. Bianca Williams did not officially complain. This suggests to me that they want all the information out in the open where it can be seen. This is clearly different to when a complaint is made against them.
Who is assuming that all police are dealing with all stop and search in the same way?
By all means quote me and raise an alternative opinion based on what I have written but you seem to take quite a leap there as to what I am assuming?
You also brought up defunding the police, for the record, I am definitely not an advocate of that.
The London and Cambridgeshire videos are different.
The Ely officer was not aggressive, he did not force the driver out of the car, he checked the address and ascertained that he was local. He clearly doesn't believe he is racist and I don't think he is either. However his own reasoning for the stop appears to be based on racial profiling and/or racial bias. You are black therefore you are probably not from around here and you may be a drug dealer.
The officer involved seems to admit racial profiling. We don't get many black people round here and we have a problem with drug dealers from outside the area.
Well this is a strange one. They’re looking specifically for black men. Would be odd if they decided instead to stop a white one for the reasons they are looking.
Strange indeed. Who said they were looking specifically for black men? If they were would that be ok?
This includes some strange categories, like White Irish, White Other, etc.
The total stop and searches of white people makes up around half the total.
Although this does not take account of the population.
I think that if the headline was that around half of all stop and searches were of white people, then there is no headline.
What headline? It is a Government report.
I think even the most statistically challenged of us would assume that the % of white people in the UK was much higher than 50% and therefore the incidents are skewed by ethnicity.
One of their chosen highlights was:
between April 2018 and March 2019, there were 4 stop and searches for every 1,000 White people, compared with 38 for every 1,000 Black people
The media turns the stats into headlines.
These stats present two completely different pictures to me.
The media presented the bit about 10 times as many black people getting stopped and searched, as white people, the other night.
Just that one sentence paints a picture.
Yet if you just quote the facts which are that around half those stopped and searched are white.
This paints a completely different picture.
I agree that the second stat doesn't take account of population percentages, but it is a fact.
Which one you quote would depend on which picture you had decided to paint.
I remember working in Coventry in my early twenties, I was the assistant manager in a large bingo club. By the time we shut the bar, and cashed up, I would usually be walking back to the Guest House that I was staying at between 1.00 and 1.30 am. I was regularly stopped and searched. As I was a young man walking about in the early hours, I just accepted it. I never resisted, or demanded a reason for it. It was almost part of the job. Fortunately I was never arrested.
If the police focused on these stats rather than solving crime, it would be unlikely to make anyone happy.
I’m starting to think I’m being trolled. I’ve been quoting you for two days to try to work out what your point is. It appears to me to be that the specific points of the case are less important than the general points of institutionalised racism, implicit biases, TSG behaviour, etc. This is where the leap is. If that’s not your point I honestly don’t know what we’ve been discussing.
In the article that you posted it says “Footage posted on social media by the driver's sister purports to show an unidentified officer telling the driver there are county lines drug problems in the area involving black males.” If the crimes that they are investigating do actually involve black men, then yes that would be ok for them to look for black men. If I was burgled by a white woman, I’d be pretty upset to learn the police had been interviewing black males all day.
You are black therefore you are probably not from around here
Let’s say an area had 99% white occupancy. Surrounding areas have 60% black occupancy. Is it ok to run the ‘probably not from round here’ numbers when coming across a random Black person? Is that racist?
Is it sexist to guess that someone is a man based on their height?
This part is just numbers and people shouldn’t be offended is the most likely answer isn’t the right one.
Comments
The total stop and searches of white people makes up around half the total.
Although this does not take account of the population.
I think that if the headline was that around half of all stop and searches were of white people, then there is no headline.
"Some kinds of bias, such as implicit race biases, are particularly troubling. This sort of bias means that people who – sincerely – report that they are not racist, and that they are committed to fair and non-discriminatory treatment, might nonetheless harbour implicit race biases, and be influenced by these biases in the way they behave. "
https://www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/publications/cjm/article/implicit-racial-bias-and-anatomy-institutional-racism
I think even the most statistically challenged of us would assume that the % of white people in the UK was much higher than 50% and therefore the incidents are skewed by ethnicity.
One of their chosen highlights was:
between April 2018 and March 2019, there were 4 stop and searches for every 1,000 White people, compared with 38 for every 1,000 Black people
Lock them all up. Sack the chief. Defund the police.
I’m convinced.
The statement added: "They indicated for it to stop but it failed to do so and made off at speed. The officers caught up with the vehicle when it stopped on Lanhill Road. The driver initially refused to get out of the car."
After searching Williams and Dos Santos, and the vehicle, nothing was found and no arrests were made.
Given the evidence of institutional racism and bias in our criminal justice system from the Macpherson report to the Lammy review, I think it is clear there is a problem.
I just think it is too easy to say comply and everything will be alright.
I have seen (and I think you agree) that the attitude and treatment by the officers concerned was disproportionate and managed badly.
You mentioned blacked out windows as an excuse for the stop. I watched the video, there was a tint but you could see through them. I reasonably assumed that if they were too dark then the police would have taken action on that on one of the 10 previous stops.
Presumably if they did the checks before the stop, they would also have discovered that the registered driver had no previous convictions or associations with criminal gangs.
On stopping the vehicle and seeing who was inside (through the open doors) I would have thought it pretty fair to assume that the couple and their 3 month old baby were not cruising the streets looking for a knife fight or a drive by shooting opportunity.
I never suggested the police were criminally racist. The article I linked to earlier talks about the difference bias and racism and I support the view.
Britain is a racist country she says. Can she back that up with some numbers?
Of course, there were millions that turned out on ‘ protect our statues day’.
Most of the vids I’ve seen on social media involving the stopping of cars, have the drivers acting very awkward, white, black or whatever, so things are likely to kick off.
If you don’t comply with the law, as I did when I got stopped and searched, then you are undermining the police, expect some grief.
I wonder how many black skinned people never got stopped or searched on said day.
Another one for social media👏
Stay alert, behave.
The police have now referred themselves to the watchdog on this. I think that sends a message that they are pretty confident they can defend their position. We'll see.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8495623/Publisher-reveals-character-portrayed-racist-way-white.html
What the actual **** is this guy on about “Mr Thomas said there were "parallel themes" between the Grenfell fire, the killing of George Floyd in the US and the "disproportionate" number of coronavirus deaths among people from minority ethnic backgrounds”.
George Floyd linked to Grenfell? Eh?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-53325511
The officer involved seems to admit racial profiling. We don't get many black people round here and we have a problem with drug dealers from outside the area.
So referrals to the IOPC only happen if the Police are confident they are innocent? That's an interesting take on the fairness on the complaints procedure.
As for IOPC, they are complaining against themselves. Bianca Williams did not officially complain. This suggests to me that they want all the information out in the open where it can be seen. This is clearly different to when a complaint is made against them.
By all means quote me and raise an alternative opinion based on what I have written but you seem to take quite a leap there as to what I am assuming?
You also brought up defunding the police, for the record, I am definitely not an advocate of that.
The London and Cambridgeshire videos are different.
The Ely officer was not aggressive, he did not force the driver out of the car, he checked the address and ascertained that he was local. He clearly doesn't believe he is racist and I don't think he is either. However his own reasoning for the stop appears to be based on racial profiling and/or racial bias. You are black therefore you are probably not from around here and you may be a drug dealer.
These stats present two completely different pictures to me.
The media presented the bit about 10 times as many black people getting stopped and searched, as white people, the other night.
Just that one sentence paints a picture.
Yet if you just quote the facts which are that around half those stopped and searched are white.
This paints a completely different picture.
I agree that the second stat doesn't take account of population percentages, but it is a fact.
Which one you quote would depend on which picture you had decided to paint.
I remember working in Coventry in my early twenties, I was the assistant manager in a large bingo club. By the time we shut the bar, and cashed up, I would usually be walking back to the Guest House that I was staying at between 1.00 and 1.30 am.
I was regularly stopped and searched.
As I was a young man walking about in the early hours, I just accepted it.
I never resisted, or demanded a reason for it.
It was almost part of the job.
Fortunately I was never arrested.
If the police focused on these stats rather than solving crime, it would be unlikely to make anyone happy.
In the article that you posted it says “Footage posted on social media by the driver's sister purports to show an unidentified officer telling the driver there are county lines drug problems in the area involving black males.” If the crimes that they are investigating do actually involve black men, then yes that would be ok for them to look for black men. If I was burgled by a white woman, I’d be pretty upset to learn the police had been interviewing black males all day.
Is it sexist to guess that someone is a man based on their height?
This part is just numbers and people shouldn’t be offended is the most likely answer isn’t the right one.