I cba to read all the posts, but I take it you're reading Jaren Tindlers book. Great read and I hope you not only enjoy it, but take a lot from it. Best of luck.
Come on Pat, there's only 8 full pages to read through I've read that book now - pretty good, useful stuff. Certainly I identified a few subtle tilt problems I had that I was unaware of. I had assumed that because I don't go crazy upon losing a big pot and suddenly start going all in every hand that I don't tilt...but as I'm sure you know, there's a lot more to it than that.
My current read is 'Every hand revealed' by Gus Hansen - it goes through every hand in his Aussie Millions win. Pretty interesting stuff.
TheRock...mind your neb! (whatever 'neb' is) But since you asked...the problem is that I don't have a consistent wage in sports trading. It's a lot better in summer when there's more racing and more liquidity in the markets. Back in July it would be anything from £200-£1000 per day, which is quite a tasty amount, especially tax free. Right now it's virtually nothing, hence need to get a job. Plus it's not bad to have a change. I get bored doing the same thing for too long anyway.
Great journal very interesting read you could teach us all sports betting and charge a good hourly rate im sure you would get plenty of customers if the job doesnt work out!
I belive you will beat poker will just take a lot more time.
Come on Pat, there's only 8 full pages to read through I've read that book now - pretty good, useful stuff. Certainly I identified a few subtle tilt problems I had that I was unaware of. I had assumed that because I don't go crazy upon losing a big pot and suddenly start going all in every hand that I don't tilt...but as I'm sure you know, there's a lot more to it than that. My current read is 'Every hand revealed' by Gus Hansen - it goes through every hand in his Aussie Millions win. Pretty interesting stuff. TheRock...mind your neb! (whatever 'neb' is) But since you asked...the problem is that I don't have a consistent wage in sports trading. It's a lot better in summer when there's more racing and more liquidity in the markets. Back in July it would be anything from £200-£1000 per day, which is quite a tasty amount, especially tax free. Right now it's virtually nothing, hence need to get a job. Plus it's not bad to have a change. I get bored doing the same thing for too long anyway. Posted by PokerNoon
Great journal very interesting read you could teach us all sports betting and charge a good hourly rate im sure you would get plenty of customers if the job doesnt work out! I belive you will beat poker will just take a lot more time. Good luck with everthing. Posted by spinky6108
Ha...if you want to send mega bucks my way, you are more than welcome
I have sent you a PM with some advice and also the link to my training site for DYM's :-)
Whilst on the subject of books, FWIW i highly recommend "The Poker Mindset" by Taylor and Hilger, good simple fundamentals on what you need to do when starting out.
So I'll be setting aside an amount of money per month (maybe in the £500 range) that I use on playing decent stakes cash games and MTTs. I may be deluded but I honestly think my game is decent enough to be competitive at these levels, if not necessarily profitable. But I'll learn much more quickly from playing good players at levels above my station than simply messing around with persistent limpers and callers and lower stakes. I realise that this is likely to cost me money, and I'm willing to spend that in order to get to where I want to be more quickly.
This bit concerns me a little Noony!! - Why not spend £500 on lessons from a mid/high stakes cash game expert from deucescracked.com rather than (likely) lose it playing against better players? You could probably get a significant number of hours with an expert one on one for this kind of money.
It sounds like you have come a long way since your beginning, but like previous posters, I firmly believe you need to pick one format of the game, and crush from the bottom upwards. Going (relatively) straight into speed poker and mid stakes cash is not wise IMO, and over the long term playing experienced players with HUD's i think you will find it tough and ultimately lose.
If I was you, I would grind out 3000-5000 £5.50 DYM's and see where you are at after this - then you have proven results over a decent sample of games and time.
Or, grind out (im not a cash player, anyone help?) a suitable huge number of hands of cash games (a provable sample) at LOW stakes, to again prove to yourself that you can beat the game.
From here, and either of these two formats and stakes, you can move onto the next level and progess. THIS is how to win long term at poker IMO.
As you are a newbie to the game, i am enjoying reading your excitement and emotions for every session of poker you do.
On MagicMern's post - it depends. I've never spent money on a coaching site/being coached in poker and have done just fine. My learning has come from lots of playing and from talking about hands on forums. I've read the very occasional book and also found some good free videos out there. I would only think about getting a coach if I didn't believe my game was improving and I believed I had some leaks but didn't know what they were/how to fix them. I think if you're going to spend a significant amount on coaching then you need to specifically know what you want to get out it and what things you need to learn/improve on.
Also when I began playing I moved through the levels very quickly. I started out at 2p/4p with just £50 and within 6 months or so I was playing £1.5/£3 and had a roll of a few thousand. Getting to play at this level I improved my game beyond recognition and if I had stuck to playing low stakes I don't think I would have learned all the stuff that I learned from playing higher.
This being said I did all of this on skypoker w/o HUD's. I think going straight into speed/zoom poker at 50NL is asking to just lose/burn money - what's more is that I don't think it will improve your game as much as playing on sky w/o reads would.
On MagicMern's post - it depends. I've never spent money on a coaching site/being coached in poker and have done just fine. My learning has come from lots of playing and from talking about hands on forums. I've read the very occasional book and also found some good free videos out there. I would only think about getting a coach if I didn't believe my game was improving and I believed I had some leaks but didn't know what they were/how to fix them. I think if you're going to spend a significant amount on coaching then you need to specifically know what you want to get out it and what things you need to learn/improve on. Also when I began playing I moved through the levels very quickly. I started out at 2p/4p with just £50 and within 6 months or so I was playing £1.5/£3 and had a roll of a few thousand. Getting to play at this level I improved my game beyond recognition and if I had stuck to playing low stakes I don't think I would have learned all the stuff that I learned from playing higher. This being said I did all of this on skypoker w/o HUD's. I think going straight into speed/zoom poker at 50NL is asking to just lose/burn money - what's more is that I don't think it will improve your game as much as playing on sky w/o reads would. Posted by F_Ivanovic
Hi Ivan,
Cheers for the reply, you kinda proved a major point of my post though - you played at 2p/4p first and assumabley crushed it and moved up. This is better than going into zoom/mid stakes with no hud and little experience no?
Gah!! Just typed a long reply and got timed out...AGAIN! Must start saving my posts before hitting submit.
Anyway, I'll try again.
First of all, thanks for all your suggestions and comments. MagicMern - thanks for your PM - I'll reply shortly.
To respond:
- I'm not massively interested in taking training that teaches ABC poker. I'm trying to create my own style that isn't easily recognisable or easy to play against. Even at this stage of my development, I feel I can quickly spot people playing ABC (especially in DYMs) and exploit the predictable nature of it. Think about it - if you have 4 regs and 2 newbies playing a DYM, the regs are all playing super safe until they hit the bubble, waiting for the newbies to make a mistake. If the newbies don't make a mistake, or get good cards, or get lucky...then the regs have to compete with each other. If they are all playing the same way, it then essentially comes down to luck.
- In line with the above, I could do what DTM does and play 20 micro stakes tables at once and make good money playing ABC. While I totally respect what he does, it doesn't interest me in the slightest. The game is totally different at higher levels, so I don't see the point of playing and playing at micro levels to then say 'ok, I've nailed this'...then step up and have to learn a totally new game. I'd rather just start by learning the new game.
- I also have to think about what will keep me motivated. The mental challenge of figuring out how to beat players like TommyD and MattBates is exciting to me. Playing against clueless types who want to limp every single hand and call every single bet...that is not exciting to me and I just find it irritating.
- I see the £500 a month as an expense, like any other legitimate business outgoing, in this case a training budget. However I do like the idea of getting an expert as a mentor or similar. Perhaps I'll pay £50-100 of the £500 to pay an expert to review my hand history and advise me of improvements. That will certainly help my game to progress more quickly. As far as I'm concerned, this is no different to investing my money in a university course. However unlike any university courses, I have the potential to make money while I am doing it.
- I don't think HUDs work with Speed Poker (I've never got them to work anyway). Reason being that every time you fold you are immediately taken to a new table. So the HUD cannot see how the hand plays out afterwards, hence cannot collect the data.
Comments/suggestions welcome. I recognise that most people have spent more time in the game than me here, so you may be able to point out any blind spots in my logic that I can't see.
Hello Pokernoon. Do you ever do any trading on the golf odds? I would have thought there'd be decent chance of good returns due to the big odd fluctuations that go on. GL with the poker Posted by jdsallstar
Hi JD. Short answer is no. I don't know enough, or have enough interest in golf to be able to work this.
One thing I know some people do reasonably successfully in golf though is to pick around 10 outsiders that are in decent form, who like the course, have a decent history there etc. Then they bet on each one with the hope that the player gets a good start in the competition.
After the first round, if they have a good start, their odds will have come in massively. At this point they can easily trade out for a profit. Worth playing around with that if you like your golf.
MagicMern is a professonal coach who runs a DYM training site. It might be worth bearing that in mind when considering his advice. Just saying. Posted by GaryQQQ
That maybe so Gary, but I am not even a cash player, let alone a cash expert, may i suggest to Noony that if he wants some cash game help to PM "Timmyrara" on here - he is a good cash player and will give him some pointers.
I'm not massively interested in taking training that teaches ABC poker. I'm trying to create my own style that isn't easily recognisable or easy to play against. Even at this stage of my development, I feel I can quickly spot people playing ABC (especially in DYMs) and exploit the predictable nature of it. Think about it - if you have 4 regs and 2 newbies playing a DYM, the regs are all playing super safe until they hit the bubble, waiting for the newbies to make a mistake. If the newbies don't make a mistake, or get good cards, or get lucky...then the regs have to compete with each other. If they are all playing the same way, it then essentially comes down to luck. Posted by PokerNoon
I understand your thinking Noony, but if you really are a beginner at poker (last month or so), then you must learn to walk before you can be Usian Bolt...
The best DYM players out there don't just play ABC poker. Indeed, I would argue till the cows come home that the regulars aren't all playing the same sit back and fold style, especially versus each other. They will adapt their games for all kinds of different scenario's.
But my point is, you must learn the foundations first, even if that is 60p DYM or 1p cash, and not just learn them but engrave them on your brain, so that you can develop your own style from there.
If it irritates you that a bad player is limping and playing badly in a DYM, this is worrying - as that is what you want. Afterall, you want to win at poker right? Or do you just want to play like a fish and try and get lucky against the big boys?
Take the advice of the guys here Noony, and learn to win first, and then develop your own style.
In Response to Re: Making a Full Time Wage From Poker - PokerNoon's Journal : Hi Ivan, Cheers for the reply, you kinda proved a major point of my post though - you played at 2p/4p first and assumabley crushed it and moved up. This is better than going into zoom/mid stakes with no hud and little experience no? Posted by MagicMern
The difference is I had no disposable income when I began playing. £50 a month was the most I could possibly afford so I had no choice but to learn from the bottom up. If you have the disposable income to play higher level, then that should naturally increase your ability quicker than if you were to start playing at a lower level. If PokerNoon finds out he is getting slaughtered in these games then it might be a good idea to consider stepping down to a level with a much better shot at becoming a winning player.
This being said £500 a month isn't an awful lot if you are going to be playing 50NL. I recently just had a 10BI downswing at 50NL over a few days which would be your whole roll for the month gone! What I'd suggest (if you want to play cash) is maybe playing 20NL-30NL for half-2/3 of the month. If you have been succesful then for the latter part of the month you can maybe consider playing some 50NL. If you have a bad downswing/things don't go your way then it's not too long till the next month anyway and you can invest another £500. If you haven't been succesfull at 20-30NL then stick at it till the end of the month.
As others have pointed out we should be happy when we are playing players that are limping and doing lots of other bad stuff. But we need to prove it by beating these players as well!
In Response to Re: Making a Full Time Wage From Poker - PokerNoon's Journal : The difference is I had no disposable income when I began playing. £50 a month was the most I could possibly afford so I had no choice but to learn from the bottom up. If you have the disposable income to play higher level, then that should naturally increase your ability quicker than if you were to start playing at a lower level. If PokerNoon finds out he is getting slaughtered in these games then it might be a good idea to consider stepping down to a level with a much better shot at becoming a winning player. This being said £500 a month isn't an awful lot if you are going to be playing 50NL. I recently just had a 10BI downswing at 50NL over a few days which would be your whole roll for the month gone! What I'd suggest (if you want to play cash) is maybe playing 20NL-30NL for half-2/3 of the month. If you have been succesful then for the latter part of the month you can maybe consider playing some 50NL. If you have a bad downswing/things don't go your way then it's not too long till the next month anyway and you can invest another £500. If you haven't been succesfull at 20-30NL then stick at it till the end of the month. As others have pointed out we should be happy when we are playing players that are limping and doing lots of other bad stuff. But we need to prove it by beating these players as well! Posted by F_Ivanovic
Agree with what you are saying Ivan, i just get the "feeling" that Noony wants to "mix it" with the big boys and the super tactical plays a bit too soon. It sounds like the lower stakes bore him, but the fact remains that he needs to seriously know what he is doing if he is to play at the levels he craves, else he will be that drunk guy in the casino surrounded by solid players that he described earlier in the thread.
Heck don't we all though - I would love to play a cash game with some high stakes pro's, it would be fun and I "might" get lucky and win, but long term, they would slaughter me. I just feel that Noony should get some proven success under his belt before taking his "shot" at the limits that he desires.
In Response to Re: Making a Full Time Wage From Poker - PokerNoon's Journal : Agree with what you are saying Ivan, i just get the "feeling" that Noony wants to "mix it" with the big boys and the super tactical plays a bit too soon. It sounds like the lower stakes bore him, but the fact remains that he needs to seriously know what he is doing if he is to play at the levels he craves, else he will be that drunk guy in the casino surrounded by solid players that he described earlier in the thread. Heck don't we all though - I would love to play a cash game with some high stakes pro's, it would be fun and I "might" get lucky and win, but long term, they would slaughter me. I just feel that Noony should get some proven success under his belt before taking his "shot" at the limits that he desires. Look forward to the PM Noony. Alf, check your inbox! Posted by MagicMern
Magic
I think the advice you have given is sound. I'm sure you can also understand why people may be a little suspicious of your motives in your first post.
I think it's difficult to advise someone without first knowing their circumstances, and secondly, what they want to do with their poker. I'm a Dym reg on here but I'd never advise someone to play Dyms if they weren't interested in them.
I've played thousands of them now and in the main, enjoy them. I can see though that to some players, Dyms are the most boring kind of poker imaginable.
A friendly reminder from Sky on this thread - those looking offer advice/tutoring services for themselves or 3rd party sites isn't permitted. Please bear this mind as anyone found in breach will have their accounts closed.
Comments
Keep going Mr Noon
Do you ever do any trading on the golf odds? I would have thought there'd be decent chance of good returns due to the big odd fluctuations that go on.
GL with the poker
It might be worth bearing that in mind when considering his advice. Just saying.
Dave