I have played 22 every possible way at 4nl. When I have raised and cbet I get called a lot and have to give up....losing around 30P+. Or I raise and don't cbet again losing 12-16p. Or I raise and cbet and win the hand winning approx 20p. I just find limping in the cheapest and easiest way to play the hand at 4nl. I'm raising in mtts and higher levels but I just don't see the point at 4nl because more often than not I lose more by raising rather limping in to set mine........people don't fold very easily at 4nl. I'm open to explanations though. Posted by waller02
Well Waller...
If you limp with 44 and it comes 4KJ (or whatever) and the pot is 10p.... unless you've smacked a nasty cooler on someone and they have KJ or the like then you are gonna find it nigh on impossible to get them to put £4 in the middle.
You bet pot on flop (he calls), pot is now 30p Turn you bet pot again, pot is now 90p River, you bet pot again, pot is now £2.70.
That is like dream situation aswell because it's rare you'll ever get people to pay off 3 pot bets in a row (even at 4NL!). So you've just won a pot of £2.70 when raising pre could have easily made it an £8 pot.
That's ignoring the fact you make it glaringly obvious what you have if you just limp small PPs.
If you find that none of your cbets are getting through then imo at 4NL, there's nothing wrong with raising and just check/folding when you miss, rinse and repeat. You will lose more when you miss, but you win far more when you hit and that's the whole point of set mining. You also give yourself the added chance of just stealing the blinds which is never a bad thing with 22.
You say you see flops cheaper by limping, but here is a perfect example above where you've limped, and then been forced to call a raise and pay full whack to try and hit your set anyway.
In Response to Re: The Story of a Broken Man (£50 or quits!!!) : Well Waller... If you limp with 44 and it comes 4KJ (or whatever) and the pot is 10p.... unless you've smacked a nasty cooler on someone and they have KJ or the like then you are gonna find it nigh on impossible to get them to put £4 in the middle. You bet pot on flop (he calls), pot is now 30p Turn you bet pot again, pot is now 90p River, you bet pot again, pot is now £2.70. That is like dream situation aswell because it's rare you'll ever get people to pay off 3 pot bets in a row (even at 4NL!). So you've just won a pot of £2.70 when raising pre could have easily made it an £8 pot. That's ignoring the fact you make it glaringly obvious what you have if you just limp small PPs. Posted by Lambert180
I guess I agree with most of what you say apart from the bolded part. The majority of players at 4nl would not notice or fold their 2nd/3rd pair if they hit.
I will take what you have said on board and start raising it up.......although I'm not going near the cash tables this week!
Congrats on your seat in TOTP btw. Hope you TID cos with (near enough) £100 roll I think you'd have plenty to just play MTTs and win Posted by Lambert180
Cheers lambert. Yeah the aim has always been to get to £100 so I can just play mtt's. I suck at cash and find 4nl sould destroying!
With the gtd tenner coming tomorrow I have decided to play the DTD tonight....have some fun for a change. You never know I might even have a result tonight and break the £100 barrier......but I wouldn't bet on it!
Lambert's saved me a lot of work. Pretty much as he has said.
I will add that whenever I look back over my NL4 sessions, my hand histories show an awful lot of +12p and +20p hands. Those are hands where I've raised or iso'd pre-flop and just got a c-bet through.
You've got to be careful which flops you c-bet on but raising pre-flop, in position, to c-bet the flop is broadly profitable at this level, just as it is at every other level.
That's not an excuse to limp when you're OOP though. lol
The TOTP thread was the reason I looked here in the first place. Good luck in it.
Lambert's saved me a lot of work. Pretty much as he has said. I will add that whenever I look back over my NL4 sessions, my hand histories show an awful lot of +12p and +20p hands. Those are hands where I've raised or iso'd pre-flop and just got a c-bet through. You've got to be careful which flops you c-bet on but raising pre-flop, in position, to c-bet the flop is broadly profitable at this level, just as it is at every other level. That's not an excuse to limp when you're OOP though. lol The TOTP thread was the reason I looked here in the first place. Good luck in it. Posted by BorinLoner
Cheers Borin. Yeah lambert was spot on with what he said (as usual).
Ty for the gl wishes.....never has a fun forum game had such meaning as far as my roll is concerned!! lol
Limping is absolutely fine with small pocket pairs. Depends on position. If you are in later position, it's fine to raise, early position limp all the way.
There isn't really a right or wrong answer, this will be dependant on position and dynamics at the table.
Hey Waller, Limping is absolutely fine with small pocket pairs. Depends on position. If you are in later position, it's fine to raise, early position limp all the way. There isn't really a right or wrong answer, this will be dependant on position and dynamics at the table. Posted by LARSON7
I disagree.
Doing this can make you very exploitable if someone at the table is paying attention. You wouldn't limp AA under the gun. If you're gonna limp marginal hands and raise premium hands in early position then your range is all over the place and far from balanced.
I can understand the temptation to limp small pairs but if we are first to enter the pot we should come in with a raise.
If we have an active table then we can just bin the tiny pairs pre if in early position. We don't have to play them.
In Response to Re: The Story of a Broken Man (£50 or quits!!!) : I disagree. Doing this can make you very exploitable if someone at the table is paying attention. You wouldn't limp AA under the gun. If you're gonna limp marginal hands and raise premium hands in early position then your range is all over the place and far from balanced. I can understand the temptation to limp small pairs but if we are first to enter the pot we should come in with a raise. If we have an active table then we can just bin the tiny pairs pre if in early position. We don't have to play them. Posted by hhyftrftdr
Cheers for the comments all...........larson it's 4-1 to raising over limping so I guess I RAISE lol
Right, played the DTD tonight for the first time in weeks. Forgot how fun they were. Never really built a stack in 2 of them and in the other I started well but then had to fold JJ twice on unkind flops after I had 3 bet pre (then had my backside spanked every orbit!). Did manage to min cash in DTD 1 though so the night was almost free.
Gonna try to play the DTD every week from now on...........top night, all for the price of a couple of pints.
Quick update......Didn't manage to take down the TOTP game but it was a good laugh with some good banter in the rail. Plus you can never moan about a free £20!
Thanks to those who voted for me, appreciate it as it was a much needed boost to the br (Charity case!!!)
I just played mtt's. I have been having a couple of nights off from the cash tables as they were doing my nut in.
Had a go at the Win the button (or whatever it was called) mtt. Was a good laugh and made a nice change from the standard mtt formats, although it does get annoying when you are on the bb 3 or 4 times on the trot!!! Would def play this kind of tourney again though, didn't cash this time but it was only a quid to play so no biggie. Also had another crack at the 35p BH......no joy.
Played the £250 BH.......no cash, 1 head prize. But I did manage a min cash in the £500 BH along with 1 head prize. The exit hand was quite brutal, I shoved my 7bb with QJ, get looked up by guy with J3o for 1/3 of his stack...........happy days, that was until the 3 came down on the flop. Still these are the calls you want in the long run so no complaints there.
waller02026£2.12 + £0.75 Head Prizes1 The most frustrating part of the evening was being bubble, bubble boy in the £2k BH freeroll where I was 12th with 10 seats to the £11 BI mtt.........sigh. Was one of the shorties and shoved my 77 on the button only to lose to the small blind's AQ.........close but no cigar!!!!!
Hehehe377010Entry to £2,000 B/Hunterfishing196011 waller02012 Could have been a nice return had I won a seat.
So, a losing night but I did enjoy playing more than I would have done being sat on the 4nl tables. Gonna have to play some cash in the next few days to try a regain my losses though.
Forgot to mention, I also played a £2.30 SPT sat. I really wanna go and play the main. I'm 90% sure that I'm going to rail the TPTers, put some faces to names and play the Friday night sidey.....but would love to play the main too!!!
Hope you sat in, but if not definitely come anyway.
They'll be a £25 comp on the Friday night which will make good money. More more importantly though there is a well stocked bar. Plenty of TPT guys will be propping it up and be good to meet you.
Be really good if you can make it to Nottingham. Hope you sat in, but if not definitely come anyway. They'll be a £25 comp on the Friday night which will make good money. More more importantly though there is a well stocked bar. Plenty of TPT guys will be propping it up and be good to meet you. Posted by Jac35
Hi Jac. I'm pretty sure I'm coming, have spoken to the missus and she has given me permission lol (under the thumb!). Can only afford a couple of attempts at the sats for the main so I doubt I will be playing. Will definitely play the sidey on the Friday night though.
Have mainly been playing mtts but apart from the odd min cash I have not been having much success. I have decided to stick purely to mtts for now because they are what I enjoy playing the most. If my br drops to £30 then I will stop play them for a while and get back on the cash tables to try and re-build.
This plan does not give much room for error but at least I will be having fun!!
Yaaaaayyyy. No BR managment ftw! Join the club. Stick it on two £22 bhs and pray! Posted by gazza127
haha. I won't be playing anything higher than £2.30 BH so hardly joining the club. Besides, if or when I drop to £30 then I will be back on 4nl trying to build back up
Hey Waller, I have had quite a similar run to you on sky poker. Spun £10 up to £100 on 35p-£3.30 sngs/mtts, then won a mini ukops last december for a four figure sum. I withdrew down to £200 and had a bit of fun entering up to £10 tourneys - eventually leaving me with £50. I have been stressed out and not enjoying my poker this year after failing to make any profits.
Fortunately, I had an enforced break from poker after moving house and losing the internet for a week or two. I returned to the tables Tuesday and decided that I would play my £50 for fun - I have been on the smallest MC tables and entering 5.75 tournys - and all of a sudden I am back at £200 and positive again.
Comments
If you limp with 44 and it comes 4KJ (or whatever) and the pot is 10p.... unless you've smacked a nasty cooler on someone and they have KJ or the like then you are gonna find it nigh on impossible to get them to put £4 in the middle.
You bet pot on flop (he calls), pot is now 30p
Turn you bet pot again, pot is now 90p
River, you bet pot again, pot is now £2.70.
That is like dream situation aswell because it's rare you'll ever get people to pay off 3 pot bets in a row (even at 4NL!). So you've just won a pot of £2.70 when raising pre could have easily made it an £8 pot.
That's ignoring the fact you make it glaringly obvious what you have if you just limp small PPs.
If you find that none of your cbets are getting through then imo at 4NL, there's nothing wrong with raising and just check/folding when you miss, rinse and repeat. You will lose more when you miss, but you win far more when you hit and that's the whole point of set mining. You also give yourself the added chance of just stealing the blinds which is never a bad thing with 22.
You say you see flops cheaper by limping, but here is a perfect example above where you've limped, and then been forced to call a raise and pay full whack to try and hit your set anyway.
I will take what you have said on board and start raising it up.......although I'm not going near the cash tables this week!
With the gtd tenner coming tomorrow I have decided to play the DTD tonight....have some fun for a change. You never know I might even have a result tonight and break the £100 barrier......but I wouldn't bet on it!
I will add that whenever I look back over my NL4 sessions, my hand histories show an awful lot of +12p and +20p hands. Those are hands where I've raised or iso'd pre-flop and just got a c-bet through.
You've got to be careful which flops you c-bet on but raising pre-flop, in position, to c-bet the flop is broadly profitable at this level, just as it is at every other level.
That's not an excuse to limp when you're OOP though. lol
The TOTP thread was the reason I looked here in the first place. Good luck in it.
Ty for the gl wishes.....never has a fun forum game had such meaning as far as my roll is concerned!! lol
Limping is absolutely fine with small pocket pairs. Depends on position. If you are in later position, it's fine to raise, early position limp all the way.
There isn't really a right or wrong answer, this will be dependant on position and dynamics at the table.
+1
Right, played the DTD tonight for the first time in weeks. Forgot how fun they were. Never really built a stack in 2 of them and in the other I started well but then had to fold JJ twice on unkind flops after I had 3 bet pre (then had my backside spanked every orbit!). Did manage to min cash in DTD 1 though so the night was almost free.
Gonna try to play the DTD every week from now on...........top night, all for the price of a couple of pints.
DTD 1
waller02016£4.31
DTD 2
waller02046
DTD 3
waller02044
BR = £38.18
I have nearly 7 quid C4P to come and I am in the Top of the Posts game tomorrow for a gtd tenner so things MAY be turning round........hope so!!
Quick update......Didn't manage to take down the TOTP game but it was a good laugh with some good banter in the rail. Plus you can never moan about a free £20!
Thanks to those who voted for me, appreciate it as it was a much needed boost to the br (Charity case!!!)
BR = £58.18
Having an early night so no more poker for me.
I just played mtt's. I have been having a couple of nights off from the cash tables as they were doing my nut in.
Had a go at the Win the button (or whatever it was called) mtt. Was a good laugh and made a nice change from the standard mtt formats, although it does get annoying when you are on the bb 3 or 4 times on the trot!!! Would def play this kind of tourney again though, didn't cash this time but it was only a quid to play so no biggie. Also had another crack at the 35p BH......no joy.
Played the £250 BH.......no cash, 1 head prize. But I did manage a min cash in the £500 BH along with 1 head prize. The exit hand was quite brutal, I shoved my 7bb with QJ, get looked up by guy with J3o for 1/3 of his stack...........happy days, that was until the 3 came down on the flop. Still these are the calls you want in the long run so no complaints there.
waller02026£2.12 + £0.75 Head Prizes1
The most frustrating part of the evening was being bubble, bubble boy in the £2k BH freeroll where I was 12th with 10 seats to the £11 BI mtt.........sigh. Was one of the shorties and shoved my 77 on the button only to lose to the small blind's AQ.........close but no cigar!!!!!
Hehehe377010Entry to £2,000 B/Hunterfishing196011 waller02012
Could have been a nice return had I won a seat.
So, a losing night but I did enjoy playing more than I would have done being sat on the 4nl tables. Gonna have to play some cash in the next few days to try a regain my losses though.
Forgot to mention, I also played a £2.30 SPT sat. I really wanna go and play the main. I'm 90% sure that I'm going to rail the TPTers, put some faces to names and play the Friday night sidey.....but would love to play the main too!!!
BR = £53.45
Have mainly been playing mtts but apart from the odd min cash I have not been having much success. I have decided to stick purely to mtts for now because they are what I enjoy playing the most. If my br drops to £30 then I will stop play them for a while and get back on the cash tables to try and re-build.
This plan does not give much room for error but at least I will be having fun!!
BR = £49.85
All good fun remember dont push with a k when q 6 will do.
Not that I'm bitter hope to see you on a final table soon.
Daggers.