Hi Tikay Mother went on holiday for three weeks just before you returned. she was wondering when you would come back as she missed you sooooooooooooooooo much. You are right breaking even did feel like a win, I also think I need to stop and think a bit more and as you said yesterday CONCENTRATE. Nick
Hi Tikay Mother went on holiday for three weeks just before you returned. she was wondering when you would come back as she missed you sooooooooooooooooo much. You are right breaking even did feel like a win, I also think I need to stop and think a bit more and as you said yesterday CONCENTRATE. Nick Posted by pompeynic
Ahh, good, well I hope she has a very long holiday.
I agree as to concentration. TV, music, chatting at home or on the rail, surfing aircraft & concrete forums, stroking the dog, none of these things help.
With 2 or 3 tables open, my mind wanders, that's why I seem to do better with 6 or 7, as it makes me concentrate better.
Afternoon all PLO8ers I have been reading this with interest recently as it is a game I would be keen to learn. As Waller says, NLH seems to be getting harder (or I am getting worse). I have read the help pages elsewhere on this site a couple of times. The first read through went straight over my head, but I am slowly picking things up, I hope. With my modest BR, I don't want to be donating £5 a time to you regs, to learn. Last night I noticed a £1 DYM filling, so I jumped in. One player was v aggressive while the rest of us apperared to be just trying to work out what we were doing. I suspect I was not he only newby at that table. I didn't cash but enjoyed the experience anyway and shall try to play more when possible. My aim is to one day soon join you big boys on the £3 and £5 DYMs. Good luck and keep up this excellent blog. p.s. I don't chunter or abuse in the chat box, so I hope I will be welcome. Posted by dragon1964
Welcome to the wonderful world of PLO8. GL at the tables Mick
How do we play pre flop in PLO8? Do we raise? Is limping acceptable/common? Do we cbet as per holdem? Posted by waller02
How do we play pre-flop? That depends very much on the situation and the players around. A typical "it depends" answer to a typical poker question I'm afraid. The thing is to play hands that a chance of winning both pots. Almost never is it good play to chase one half only.
Do we raise? Yes. Agression is almost always good
Is limping acceptable/common? Yes. Way more common than in Hold'em. A raise is usually preferable to a limp (as in Hold'em) but a limp can more easily be defended pre-flop in Omaha High/Low as you're never going to be too far ahead or behind until you see the flop.
Do we cbet as per holdem? Yes, but in DYMs we don't have much wiggle room post flop once the blinds start to go up. You're making decision for stacks early on, especially if the pre-flop raise was "pot"
In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : How do we play pre-flop? That depends very much on the situation and the players around. A typical "it depends" answer to a typical poker question I'm afraid. The thing is to play hands that a chance of winning both pots. Almost never is it good play to chase one half only. Do we raise? Yes. Agression is almost always good Is limping acceptable/common? Yes. Way more common than in Hold'em. A raise is usually preferable to a limp (as in Hold'em) but a limp can more easily be defended pre-flop in Omaha High/Low as you're never going to be too far ahead or behind until you see the flop. Do we cbet as per holdem? Yes, but in DYMs we don't have much wiggle room post flop once the blinds start to go up. You're making decision for stacks early on, especially if the pre-flop raise was "pot" Posted by FCHD
N1 cheers for that.
The way my holdem dyms are going it won't be long before I try the change in format!
Curiosity got the better of me and I played my first £3.30 DYM. Had no idea if any of my play was correct. I didn't cash but at least made the final 4........although like I said, I was clueless.
Sorry to hijack this thread but just wanted to post 2 hands to see if I'm along the right lines or way off!!!
1. Is this Ok/bad? should I be folding river seeing as the board has paired??
nick2109
Small blind
75.00
75.00
1738.75
waller02
Big blind
150.00
225.00
2625.00
Your hole cards
10
K
2
6
dawnwonder
Call
150.00
375.00
1231.25
jazzyjay05
Fold
tiga123
Call
150.00
525.00
3162.50
tikay1
Fold
nick2109
Call
75.00
600.00
1663.75
waller02
Check
Flop
Q
5
J
nick2109
Check
waller02
Check
dawnwonder
Bet
150.00
750.00
1081.25
tiga123
Fold
nick2109
Fold
waller02
Call
150.00
900.00
2475.00
Turn
9
waller02
Bet
600.00
1500.00
1875.00
dawnwonder
Call
600.00
2100.00
481.25
River
J
waller02
Check
dawnwonder
All-in
481.25
2581.25
0.00
waller02
Call
481.25
3062.50
1393.75
waller02
Show
10
K
2
6
dawnwonder
Show
2
7
5
5
dawnwonder
Win high
Full House, 5s and Jacks
3062.50
3062.50
No qualifying low hand
2. Against the big man himself. Is this good enough to go to war with or is this a pretty average hand??? Clueless!! Although looking back I'm guessing it's pretty bad cos I already have some of my straight outs???
tiga123
Small blind
75.00
75.00
2937.50
tikay1
Big blind
150.00
225.00
1142.50
Your hole cards
K
A
10
9
nick2109
Fold
waller02
Raise
400.00
625.00
918.75
dawnwonder
Fold
jazzyjay05
Fold
tiga123
Fold
tikay1
Raise
1125.00
1750.00
17.50
waller02
????
Was fun though and I intend to play more after a bit more study!!!!
I will post any other HH in the clinic so I don't spoil this diary. Just wanted to post a couple on here first cos all of the posters seem to be a knowledgeable bunch!
On the face of it, not a good night, losing £8, despite winning 17 from 30, which is just about OK.
But I played 2 @ £11, & lost both, which completely skews the results. So I'm not too troubled, variance will take care of that, but it is a bit worrying that I'm not making any progress overall, being just break-even after 211 games, which is not much to write home about.
Plenty of traffic for most of the evening, & I knocked off 30 games in under 4 hours, which is remarkable for this time of year. SNG Traffic on Sky Poker is roaring along at the moment, the best its ever been at this time of year, so that's heartening for the winter.
I played OK most of the evening, but was a bit cross with myself for my early bath in the 2nd £11er I played.
With Blinds medium sized & above, & unless I have an abso monster (A-A-2-x etc) I have a default of being "first to open" with hands like A-K-2-4 or similar. But if I have enough chips & time, if someone raises in front of me, I generally let these go. Why? Because by being the first to bet, at least 70% of the time, maybe more, I get it through without seeing a flop, & everyone folds. These are good odds, we can't lose if they fold pre.
But in this case, someone - might have been our mate Enut, opened first, & I re-potted. We had the same high hand I think (A-K), but he had a slightly better low, & he ended up with the wheel & got the lot. Think I should have just folded pre. Enut's range here is generally pretty solid, too, he does not open with spanners.
Anyway, no great damage, but a bit frustrating to lose those 2 @ £11, which equates to a £40 swing.
Am really enjoying these sessions now, & plan to play the next 4 nights in a row. I might go up to DTD @ the weekend, undecided at the mo, & I'm working Tuersday evening, but I reckon I might just decide to have 4 nights Online to really get my eye in.
I will post any other HH in the clinic so I don't spoil this diary. Just wanted to post a couple on here first cos all of the posters seem to be a knowledgeable bunch! Posted by waller02
Good to see you giving these a bash last night, & I hope you enjoyed yourself.
I'm going to start a dedicated PLO8 DYM thread in the Strategy section shortly, so feel free to use that to post any PLO8 hands.
Of the 2 hands you posted, my view would be.....
The first one, it's just a bit of a cooler really. You could not fold for less than 500, Dawn might just have three Jacks, but very often has the boat here. Not sure you should or could fold getting 5/1 though. It's a crying call I think.
Aside from stack maths, generally if the board pairs in PLO or PLO8, it is very dangerous, & posts a great big "slow down" style red flag. We see LOTS of full houses in Omaha, so be careful, it's not like NLH where we almost never fold boats. If the board pairs on the flop, its easy to get away, on the river, when pot stuck, not so easy.
In the other hand, which was against me, I don't recall it, but judging from my stack size, I was looking for a spot. Whilst I don't recall the hand, I'd near guarantee that I had...
An Ace.
Another high card, either K, Q or J.
Two nice low cards with my Ace.
Something like A-K-2-5 maybe. Just guessing, but that's my range here, given my stack size. You had a very pretty hand, nothing wrong with the bet, but in an ideal world, you'd want to see a high flop, as if the low comes you can almost never scoop. Of course, if the Board does not come a low, you are near certain to scoopio.
How do we play pre flop in PLO8? Do we raise? Is limping acceptable/common? Do we cbet as per holdem? Posted by waller02
FCHD's answer was pretty much what I would have said.
Don't be a sheep & keep limping in, it has to be bad.
For balance, in Levels 1 & 2, it's not terrible to limp now & then, just don't get into the habit of doing it a lot, be very selective. If you see some players limping in every hand, as you often do, I can guarantee they are not profitable.
Limp in, catch a bit of the flop, call another bet, & it can soon get expensive. We need to preserve our ammo for the "aggro" stage from Level 5 onwards.
Limp-calling a raise is even worse. If the hand is good enough to limp-call, then we should have raised in the first place.
All IMO of course.
One little tip on C-betting.
When we raise pre, 90% of the calls we get are LOW DRAWING HANDS. So even if we are on the Low, & have missed the flop completely, (lets say we have A-2-4-6 & it comes all high), we can still make that C-Bet, & mostly, they all fold quickly. When this one goes wrong though, & we get looked up, we don't 'arf feel daft.....
edited just to say, TK had answered you I think whilst I was typing this.
Hi Waller, regarding your 9 10 K A (ds) hand. (This is purely my opinion of course.....) It's the sort of hand that given the right situation, is worth seeing a flop with early levels, if you can get there v. cheaply that is. Later levels, given the right situation and if needs must, it's a sort of cross fingers and pot raise hand.
Someone will probably correct me, but it's something like a 70% chance that any board will produce a Lo hand. Given that you didn't have a drawing hand for any lo, you're gambling for the flop to bring flush/straight draws and high cards (or at least two) only, for you to scoop the lot.
If the 9c you held was a 2c or 3c, I'd be happy to get the lot in pre-flop if short stacked and at later levels. Actually, I would be pot raising with that if first to act every game of the week, but of course the usual answer regarding PLO8 is, it would depend on the situation, position, opponents etc etc.
That's what I think anyways, would be interested in what others think.
Hi Waller, regarding your 9 10 K A (ds) hand. (This is purely my opinion of course.....) It's the sort of hand that given the right situation, is worth seeing a flop with early levels, if you can get there v. cheaply that is. Later levels, given the right situation and if needs must, it's a sort of cross fingers and pot raise hand. Someone will probably correct me, but it's something like a 70% chance that any board will produce a Lo hand. Given that you didn't have a drawing hand for any lo, you're gambling for the flop to bring flush/straight draws and high cards (or at least two) only, for you to scoop the lot. If the 9c you held was a 2c or 3c, I'd be happy to get the lot in pre-flop if short stacked and at later levels. Actually, I would be pot raising with that if first to act every game of the week, but of course the usual answer regarding PLO8 is, it would depend on the situation, position, opponents etc etc. That's what I think anyways, would be interested in what others think. Posted by Macacgirl1
A brilliant analysis, imo.
Very interesting to note that, as you say, if we can add a suited deuce instead of one of the paint cards, this is then a premium hand to go to war with in any situation.
For example, this hand would rank as a Top 50 hand.....
A-2-10-9 DS.
Whereas this hand would be around 1,000 in the pre-flop hand rankings.
A-K-10-9 DS
See the difference thst 2 makes?
The difference that 2 makes is crucial, & huge. When we are dealt our starting hand, we always want to see A-2-x-x. We can go to war with most A-2-x-x hands. With A-K-10-9, as Maca says, we are gambling on a high only flop really.
Thanks for those detailed responses Macacgirl and Tikay. Have to say I'm amazed at how much having the 2 in your hole cards improves the starting hand, will certainly take that on board.
Yeah it's a good idea introducing a PLO8 strategy section in the clinic because there is so much more to learn than certainly I ever realised. You can learn holdem (up to a certain level) just by playing but I definitely think PLO8 requires a lot more studying in order to become a competent player.
It's a very fun game though. I certainly won't be playing it instead of holdem just yet but it will be good to have some other form of the game to play during periods of boredom or run bad.
Thanks again. See you on the tables and best of luck.
Played a few games of this tonight with the regs. Very pre-flop focused but sat tight and made the last 4 in every game I played and turned a small profit.
I am fairly certain I made a few mistakes in not calling to try and eliminate shortstacks and I didnt have a clue which hands to play in the midstages so made very few steals. I will try a few of the mtts to try out plo8 with deeper stacks as it was a refreshing change from nlhe.
Best ever start to a session, I think, winning the first 8 games, but then it all went a bit pete.
Middle of the session was downhill, the last third I ran really ugly bad, but I was still on course for a profit, & was guaranteed to win more games than I lost. Ended up winning the game count 17-14, but losing 2 quid on the day.
The penultimate game was a disgrace. I got it in against some chap, & I had 137 outs twice, I was all over him, had him bang to rights. How well does that Jac35 run? Disrespectful to call my raises, too.
Comments
Mother went on holiday for three weeks just before you returned. she was wondering when you would come back as she missed you sooooooooooooooooo much.
You are right breaking even did feel like a win, I also think I need to stop and think a bit more and as you said yesterday CONCENTRATE.
Nick
I agree as to concentration. TV, music, chatting at home or on the rail, surfing aircraft & concrete forums, stroking the dog, none of these things help.
With 2 or 3 tables open, my mind wanders, that's why I seem to do better with 6 or 7, as it makes me concentrate better.
GL at the tables
Mick
Do we raise? Yes. Agression is almost always good
Is limping acceptable/common? Yes. Way more common than in Hold'em. A raise is usually preferable to a limp (as in Hold'em) but a limp can more easily be defended pre-flop in Omaha High/Low as you're never going to be too far ahead or behind until you see the flop.
Do we cbet as per holdem? Yes, but in DYMs we don't have much wiggle room post flop once the blinds start to go up. You're making decision for stacks early on, especially if the pre-flop raise was "pot"
The way my holdem dyms are going it won't be long before I try the change in format!
Sorry to hijack this thread but just wanted to post 2 hands to see if I'm along the right lines or way off!!!
1. Is this Ok/bad? should I be folding river seeing as the board has paired??
I will post any other HH in the clinic so I don't spoil this diary. Just wanted to post a couple on here first cos all of the posters seem to be a knowledgeable bunch!
10th July Numbers & Stuff
Played 30
Won 17
Lost 13
£3.30, P 19, W 11, L 8
£5.50, P 9, W 6 L 3
£11, P2, W 0, L 2
Opening Balance - £1,297.65
Closing Balance = £1,289.45
Profit Loss on Night - £8.30
Profit Loss on Month = £4.35
REWARD POINTS on night = 122
REWARD POINTS IN MONTH = 853 (= £8.53)
GAMES PLAYED IN MONTH = 211
GAMES WON IN MONTH = 115
WIN % = 54.5%
On the face of it, not a good night, losing £8, despite winning 17 from 30, which is just about OK.
But I played 2 @ £11, & lost both, which completely skews the results. So I'm not too troubled, variance will take care of that, but it is a bit worrying that I'm not making any progress overall, being just break-even after 211 games, which is not much to write home about.
Plenty of traffic for most of the evening, & I knocked off 30 games in under 4 hours, which is remarkable for this time of year. SNG Traffic on Sky Poker is roaring along at the moment, the best its ever been at this time of year, so that's heartening for the winter.
I played OK most of the evening, but was a bit cross with myself for my early bath in the 2nd £11er I played.
With Blinds medium sized & above, & unless I have an abso monster (A-A-2-x etc) I have a default of being "first to open" with hands like A-K-2-4 or similar. But if I have enough chips & time, if someone raises in front of me, I generally let these go. Why? Because by being the first to bet, at least 70% of the time, maybe more, I get it through without seeing a flop, & everyone folds. These are good odds, we can't lose if they fold pre.
But in this case, someone - might have been our mate Enut, opened first, & I re-potted. We had the same high hand I think (A-K), but he had a slightly better low, & he ended up with the wheel & got the lot. Think I should have just folded pre. Enut's range here is generally pretty solid, too, he does not open with spanners.
Anyway, no great damage, but a bit frustrating to lose those 2 @ £11, which equates to a £40 swing.
Am really enjoying these sessions now, & plan to play the next 4 nights in a row. I might go up to DTD @ the weekend, undecided at the mo, & I'm working Tuersday evening, but I reckon I might just decide to have 4 nights Online to really get my eye in.
I'm going to start a dedicated PLO8 DYM thread in the Strategy section shortly, so feel free to use that to post any PLO8 hands.
Of the 2 hands you posted, my view would be.....
The first one, it's just a bit of a cooler really. You could not fold for less than 500, Dawn might just have three Jacks, but very often has the boat here. Not sure you should or could fold getting 5/1 though. It's a crying call I think.
Aside from stack maths, generally if the board pairs in PLO or PLO8, it is very dangerous, & posts a great big "slow down" style red flag. We see LOTS of full houses in Omaha, so be careful, it's not like NLH where we almost never fold boats. If the board pairs on the flop, its easy to get away, on the river, when pot stuck, not so easy.
In the other hand, which was against me, I don't recall it, but judging from my stack size, I was looking for a spot. Whilst I don't recall the hand, I'd near guarantee that I had...
An Ace.
Another high card, either K, Q or J.
Two nice low cards with my Ace.
Something like A-K-2-5 maybe. Just guessing, but that's my range here, given my stack size. You had a very pretty hand, nothing wrong with the bet, but in an ideal world, you'd want to see a high flop, as if the low comes you can almost never scoop. Of course, if the Board does not come a low, you are near certain to scoopio.
Hope to see more of you in these games.
Don't be a sheep & keep limping in, it has to be bad.
For balance, in Levels 1 & 2, it's not terrible to limp now & then, just don't get into the habit of doing it a lot, be very selective. If you see some players limping in every hand, as you often do, I can guarantee they are not profitable.
Limp in, catch a bit of the flop, call another bet, & it can soon get expensive. We need to preserve our ammo for the "aggro" stage from Level 5 onwards.
Limp-calling a raise is even worse. If the hand is good enough to limp-call, then we should have raised in the first place.
All IMO of course.
One little tip on C-betting.
When we raise pre, 90% of the calls we get are LOW DRAWING HANDS. So even if we are on the Low, & have missed the flop completely, (lets say we have A-2-4-6 & it comes all high), we can still make that C-Bet, & mostly, they all fold quickly. When this one goes wrong though, & we get looked up, we don't 'arf feel daft.....
Hi Waller, regarding your 9 10 K A (ds) hand.
(This is purely my opinion of course.....)
It's the sort of hand that given the right situation, is worth seeing a flop with early levels, if you can get there v. cheaply that is. Later levels, given the right situation and if needs must, it's a sort of cross fingers and pot raise hand.
Someone will probably correct me, but it's something like a 70% chance that any board will produce a Lo hand. Given that you didn't have a drawing hand for any lo, you're gambling for the flop to bring flush/straight draws and high cards (or at least two) only, for you to scoop the lot.
If the 9c you held was a 2c or 3c, I'd be happy to get the lot in pre-flop if short stacked and at later levels. Actually, I would be pot raising with that if first to act every game of the week, but of course the usual answer regarding PLO8 is, it would depend on the situation, position, opponents etc etc.
That's what I think anyways, would be interested in what others think.
Very interesting to note that, as you say, if we can add a suited deuce instead of one of the paint cards, this is then a premium hand to go to war with in any situation.
For example, this hand would rank as a Top 50 hand.....
A-2-10-9 DS.
Whereas this hand would be around 1,000 in the pre-flop hand rankings.
A-K-10-9 DS
See the difference thst 2 makes?
The difference that 2 makes is crucial, & huge. When we are dealt our starting hand, we always want to see A-2-x-x. We can go to war with most A-2-x-x hands. With A-K-10-9, as Maca says, we are gambling on a high only flop really.
Yeah it's a good idea introducing a PLO8 strategy section in the clinic because there is so much more to learn than certainly I ever realised. You can learn holdem (up to a certain level) just by playing but I definitely think PLO8 requires a lot more studying in order to become a competent player.
It's a very fun game though. I certainly won't be playing it instead of holdem just yet but it will be good to have some other form of the game to play during periods of boredom or run bad.
Thanks again. See you on the tables and best of luck.
I am fairly certain I made a few mistakes in not calling to try and eliminate shortstacks and I didnt have a clue which hands to play in the midstages so made very few steals. I will try a few of the mtts to try out plo8 with deeper stacks as it was a refreshing change from nlhe.
11th July Numbers & Stuff
Played 31
Won 17
Lost 14
£3.30, P 21, W 12, L 9
£5.50, P 10, W 5 L 5
£11, P 0, W 0, L 0
Opening Balance - £1,289.45
Closing Balance = £1,287.15
Profit Loss on Night - £2.30
Profit Loss on Month = £6.65
REWARD POINTS on night = 115
REWARD POINTS IN MONTH = 966 (= £9.66)
GAMES PLAYED IN MONTH = 242
GAMES WON IN MONTH = 132
WIN % = 54.5%
It all began so well.....
Best ever start to a session, I think, winning the first 8 games, but then it all went a bit pete.
Middle of the session was downhill, the last third I ran really ugly bad, but I was still on course for a profit, & was guaranteed to win more games than I lost. Ended up winning the game count 17-14, but losing 2 quid on the day.
The penultimate game was a disgrace. I got it in against some chap, & I had 137 outs twice, I was all over him, had him bang to rights. How well does that Jac35 run? Disrespectful to call my raises, too.
War is declared.