If you're a 66% favourite to beat the field I think it is a mistake shoving level 1 with anything other than Aces or Kings. Chip preservation is much more important than the 500 chips in the middle. I find the weaker DYM players are too loose early and too tight late, which is were you can exploit your edge.
I wouldve just called, only Ace high, then take it from there. Did you pot it?( most unlike you early )This is gonna end in tears me thinks, as i know your feelings on searching HH.
Ive seen busto in plo8 dyms in the very first hand a fair few times.
If you're a 66% favourite to beat the field I think it is a mistake shoving level 1 with anything other than Aces or Kings. Chip preservation is much more important than the 500 chips in the middle. I find the weaker DYM players are too loose early and too tight late, which is were you can exploit your edge. Posted by SMARTGOAT
I should add & explain, in case it sounded conceited or overly chirpy, that it is very rare for me to consider myself a 66% jolly in a NLH DYM. I sort of plucked the number out of the air but it won't be far out.
Over a 22,000 game sample of PLO8 games I'm around 58%, but over a 200 game sample of NLH games in the last few weeks I'm only around 50%. But this DID look a very very soft table.
There was nobody of your calibre on the table. Generally, there are 1 or 2 players who I try to avoid banging heads with, but there were none on this occasion.
I doubt that I'd jam here. We had an edge in this game.
We shove and they all fold. Well, that's the best outcome we can hope for. We add nicely to our stack but we're by no means locked.
We get a call and we're crushed. That's not good. We're out.
We get a call from any pair. This seems the most likely scenario. It's not one i like. I get that we haven't made a mistake but that's irrelevant. We're still flipping at a stage where we don't want to be doing that.
We get a call from hands we dominate, AQ AJ etc. Yeah it will happen from time to time but there will not be enough times that this happens in my view.
I also think the fact he 5xed is very important. When players do this in low stake Dyms I often find its with very strong hands.
This is just a redic easy jam. The current pot represents a +25% increase of our stack. The opener can have one of the 6 combos that dominate us but from the experience you have seen, they have a huge amount more. I very much doubt anyone else has one of these as in level 1 they would in general be more inclined to isolate the opener, unless there has been a ton of squeezing going on. We'd prefer to just win the pot uncontested, of course we would. We win then 100% of the time. But we're not the ones making a mistake here if we jam. Say one of the callers has 77, and they decide to go flipping. By them calling off, they are the ones making the mistake saying 'I hope I'm flipping' in a DYM. We fold out everyone most of the time for a 25% stack gain, we make an oppo make a mistake some of the time and in those spots we are either even money or decently ahead (I've seen K9o call in these spots more than once) and very rarely we are dominated but can always get there. Just jam, keep it simple, it's never a mistake as the play has been described. Posted by TommyD
I would probably agree if it was a £22 dym with a couple of regs at the table.
I would definitely agree if it was a 6 max at any level with any standard of players.
BUT it isn't it's a 2.25 dym with a soft field which is the context that matters most to me.
Why risk a flip or worse at level 1 v a soft field when all we need to do is cash.
The point is too many players are going to call a shove at that level with 77+ and if we know they make those kind of mistakes we can let them knock each other out or find spots to isolate cheaply later.
That shove will not get though enough times at that level to make it correct.
I would agree with tommy paul here. they are much better at explaining than me. im most likely putting all my chips in here and see what happens. i dont have aq great track record though ans play mainly for fun. look forward to see what the outcome was though.
It's a £2.25 DYM. The table, not to be rude, looks reasonably soft. Even with my lack of recent NLH game time, I do actually expect to be able to do OK in this - let's say I'd "win" it 66% of the time, just by sticking to solid DYM principles. We are in Level 1, just started, & I am in the BB. UTG makes it 100 to go. (10/20, but I already know this guy raises almost every hand pre). The WHOLE TABLE then call. So it gets to me in the BB, & there is 520 in the middle. (Starting stack is 2,000). We have A-K suited. What should I do now, & why? Posted by Tikay10
So we have 4 options
Shoving
the issue with shoving is that, as you've described the table as soft i will assume they are 5 weak recs and in general they don't like to fold any pair. so when you get called its by 22+, you will get the odd occasion when you get called by Ax but that will be a far smaller amount of the time. so by shoving you are essentially accepting a flip in a game type where you need to win 56.5% of games just to break even, i know that most people think of races as 50/50 but in terms of actual % you're actual only 47-48% vs most pairs that's an immediate strain on the rest of your results. that's assuming you only get 1 call. and while the 520 chips in the middle would be a nice top up i don't think your going to get the folds enough times to make it +ev in this format.
3 bet
the issue with 3 betting non all in is with 520 in the middle, were going to need to bet large to get the folds we want, and we do want folds doubling up is great ofc but in the overall scheme of things we'd rather win games having never gone to showdown. so were going to have to raise it up to at least 550 but having already seen all 5 players call we shouldn't be surprised to see at least 2 or more of them call (or occasionally 4 bet jam which we should never be calling) then we get to the flop. there is 1850 in the middle and 3 of you in the pot. if you don't hit you have to give up and you've already lost over 25% of your stack and chip preservation is key.
Calling
Imo this is the second best option although i still dont like it. playing 6 handed with AKs against 5 wide ranges of hands is going to lead to some tricky spots. we are hoping for dry A high flop. any wet flops and we could easily be playing for stacks.
lets set up a wet flop as an example
As Ks - 1900 chips
600 chips in the middle the flop comes Ah 8d 9d
SB checks to us. what do we do now? we know that these are weaker players, they aren't going to fold their draws and with the wide ranges of hands already out there we have no idea if we are ahead, or miles behind.
Bet, folding puts a massive dent in our stack.
Bet, call (1 or more shoves) and we are never going to be a massive favourite if we are ahead but always going to be a massive underdog if behind.
check, call and we still have no idea where we are and there arent going to be alot of turn cards we like.
folding
this is my prefered play here for all the reasons above. plus as i've highlighted its a £2.25 dym and the other 5 players have already shown they want to mix it up with each other and this could easily be a game where we don't have to do anything to cash. that on top of all the messy scenarios make it a fold for me. we WILL find better spots, and that's assuming we need to find a spot and they dont do it for us.
Tikay, are you pulling up stats on oppos in NLH dyms, or was it for this specific hand? Wouldn't have thought you had the time. Is this spot not covered in the above thread, ABC of dyms, John Connor? Posted by chilling
Matts guide is very good
I'd be slightly wary of taking it as the definitive way to play dyms though
He wrote it a good while ago and I'm sure he would update many of his thoughts now
I think one of the biggest questions here is why are you playing a dym with rake that high? Posted by Jac35
It was part of my "re-learn NLH" strategy initially. I was, at the time, playing £2.25, £3.30 & £5.50.
Then I was advised that it made no sense, as the rake diluted returns too much.
I get that point, but I'm not entirely convinced - surely, to a degree, that is, or could be, offset by the games being that much easier?
Anyway, I took the point, & have not played a £2.25 NLH DYM since. I do play the odd £2.25 PLO8 DYM now & then, when I am short of games, but generally the extra rake in them is offset by table quality.
So now, I just play £3.30, & £5.50 i the NLH.
I did spend one evening 10 days ago dipping my toes in the £11 games, & running into Timmy, SJSpansky, RLT & Co. That sure went well.
I have also played, surprisingly - but with very good reason (tables looked ultra playable) - 3 of them @ £22. Hard to believe that some £22 tables (I emphasise "some") are softer than the average £3 or £5 table, but they are. And after the outrageously good luck I had in a £22 NLH affair this morning, I might never play another. Sheesh, doubt I've ever been a bigger dog to cash, I had 50 chips at 200-400.......and won.
Comments
Over a 22,000 game sample of PLO8 games I'm around 58%, but over a 200 game sample of NLH games in the last few weeks I'm only around 50%. But this DID look a very very soft table.
There was nobody of your calibre on the table. Generally, there are 1 or 2 players who I try to avoid banging heads with, but there were none on this occasion.
So we have several very highly rated & profitable players saying "it is a shove, no question about it".
And several equally esteemed players (+ Hendrick) suggesting either call, or raise.
It seems we all approach this great game of poker so differently. Which is great.
Then I was advised that it made no sense, as the rake diluted returns too much.
I get that point, but I'm not entirely convinced - surely, to a degree, that is, or could be, offset by the games being that much easier?
Anyway, I took the point, & have not played a £2.25 NLH DYM since. I do play the odd £2.25 PLO8 DYM now & then, when I am short of games, but generally the extra rake in them is offset by table quality.
So now, I just play £3.30, & £5.50 i the NLH.
I did spend one evening 10 days ago dipping my toes in the £11 games, & running into Timmy, SJSpansky, RLT & Co. That sure went well.
I have also played, surprisingly - but with very good reason (tables looked ultra playable) - 3 of them @ £22. Hard to believe that some £22 tables (I emphasise "some") are softer than the average £3 or £5 table, but they are. And after the outrageously good luck I had in a £22 NLH affair this morning, I might never play another. Sheesh, doubt I've ever been a bigger dog to cash, I had 50 chips at 200-400.......and won.