Still amazed anyone would say folding is the best line. Phantom, I know we've discussed this away from here but I can't agree with you, nor indeed with anyone who says fold. I also don't believe for one minute that anyone actually folds this pre in game. Posted by hhyftrftdr
That's fine. I have learned a lot in this forum from you and others when I have explained what I would do and been given an alternative option and explanation. Jdallstar made a great post earlier explaining why he thought the call was the optimum option in context. I might be wrong technically, I still don't like calling to be oop. Yes we can flop the world but so can anyone, there are 5 opponents after all.
Looking at it another way...
We are 120/1 ish to flop a flush and if we do even the recs are going to see the possibility so unless we are even luckier to be up against Qxh how are busting someone here? We could even get bust by a str8 flush or a set housing up if we do get action.
We are even worse to flop a straight about 300/1 although if we do there may be more chance of extracting value but we can still lose to hands that house up or other flush draws if there are 2 suited cards that are not ours.
In other words we are about 1% to flop the nuts.
Most of the hands we have a chance of connecting with for the pot odds we have will be so vulnerable against a field of 5 random hands and we are out of position.
So no even after all this discussion I don't think folding is a terrible play here, in a dym, at this level, against this field.
Still amazed anyone would say folding is the best line. Phantom, I know we've discussed this away from here but I can't agree with you, nor indeed with anyone who says fold. I also don't believe for one minute that anyone actually folds this pre in game. Posted by hhyftrftdr
Now this bit I do take offence to. I am not lying and I do not believe others who say they would fold are either.
I don't believe anyone sits there, in game, having been dealt AKs in the bb and seeing 5 others in the pot, and clicks fold. If you wanna take offence to that then thats your call (no pun as you'd fold, apparently)
In Response to Re: What should I do now? : That's fine. I have learned a lot in this forum from you and others when I have explained what I would do and been given an alternative option and explanation. Jdallstar made a great post earlier explaining why he thought the call was the optimum option in context. I might be wrong technically, I still don't like calling to be oop. Yes we can flop the world but so can anyone, there are 5 opponents after all. Looking at it another way... We are 120/1 ish to flop a flush and even we do even the recs are going to see the possibility so unless we are even luckier to be up against Qxh how are busting someone here? We could even get bust by a str8 flush or a set housing up if we do get action. We are even worse to flop a straight about 300/1 although if we do there may be more chance of extracting value but we can still lose to hands that house up or other flush draws if there are 2 suited cards that are not ours. In other words we are about 1% to flop the nuts. Most of the hands we have a chance of connecting with for the pot odds we have will be so vulnerable against a field of 5 random hands and we are out of position. So no even after all this discussion I don't think folding is a terrible play here, in a dym, at this level, against this field. Now this bit I do take offence to. I am not lying and I do not believe others who say they would fold are either. Is there some other reason you are a touch grumpy today? Posted by Phantom66
I don't believe anyone sits there, in game, having been dealt AKs in the bb and seeing 5 others in the pot, and clicks fold. If you wanna take offence to that then thats your call (no pun as you'd fold, apparently) Posted by hhyftrftdr
You questioned me. I repeated I would fold. You didn't believe me. You still don't. So I infer you are calling me a liar.
Being called a liar - when trying to be genuine - I do take offence to.
In Response to Re: What should I do now? : Why even get out of bed on a morning? Posted by hhyftrftdr
That point about hitting and losing was a minor aside. Main point is that this "double nut maker" only actually flops the nuts 1% of the time. It's a dym. Other players seem keen to throw their chips in so let them. We are a huge dog to the field even with a hand as nice as AKs.
Generally v a weak field I would rather let them clash with each other as much as they like and look for spots where I can be 1v1.
Much easier to get chips from a single weaker opponent by getting value from a better hand or making them fold a better hand than to play 6 handed bingo.
If I thought the shove was getting through enough of the time I would, but at that level I don't hence my view fold is the better option of the 3.
Not that I am getting obsessed by this thread or anything but. A quick tally up Fold 10 Call 8 Raise 2 Shove 8 So that's 10 liars, 8 solid dym players, 8 solid MTT players and 2 unclassifieds (didnt count matt although I guess he wont be folding, probably shoving as any flip is 80/20 for him) Posted by Phantom66
lol - I know what you mean. I,ve had this hand in my head all night. I did say fold but after reading some of the replies can see why a call would make sense as well. We know it was early in the 1st level , but what was the action like before this hand - Had it been pretty aggro in first few hands or had it been tight up until this point? if it had been pretty tight up until this hand i might lean toward a call but if it had already been aggro from 1st hand i,m staying out of it and folding. One conclusion i,ve come to is its deffo not a shove or a re-raise imho of course. I know we shouldn,t be results oreintated but just wanna know what happened now. Also when Tikay says this guy UTG always raises pre - whats his normal raise size?
A couple of scenarios/questions/'what would you do?' for the folders in this thread.
One of the more prevalent arguments being put forward to fold is this is a low level DYM and you'll always get a couple of callers to a shove. So what do you do with kings here (versus two I would estimate we'd be around 65% to win the hand)? Second, very first hand this DYM you have 88 UTG. You just open folding?
Honestly curious considering the arguments being put forward. Very good thread.
A couple of scenarios/questions/'what would you do?' for the folders in this thread. One of the more prevalent arguments being put forward to fold is this is a low level DYM and you'll always get a couple of callers to a shove. So what do you do with kings here (versus two I would estimate we'd be around 65% to win the hand)? Second, very first hand this DYM you have 88 UTG. You just open folding? Honestly curious considering the arguments being put forward. Very good thread. Posted by TommyD
I,d be shoving with KK,, but UTG i,d be folding 88 in the very first hand, although sometimes i will get tempted to try and see a flop even though i think its the wrong move. Thats one of the hardest things i find with DYM,s - laying down good hands pre-flop in first level or 2 . (probably because were so used to raising with them in other forms of the game)
I do hope there are bustos in this hand, otherwise this journey is going to be an anticlimax.Im thinking the reason for asking for views on how to play this hand, is because it went pear-shaped for tikay.Ger is a wise owl, no need to play a pretty hand this early against the whole table.Each to their own though. I do hope tikay didnt time out. ( curve ball )
In Response to Re: What should I do now? : I,d be shoving with KK,, but UTG i,d be folding 88 in the very first hand, although sometimes i will get tempted to try and see a flop even though i think its the wrong move. Thats one of the hardest things i find with DYM,s - laying down good hands pre-flop in first level or 2 . (probably because were so used to raising with them in other forms of the game) Posted by MP33
Wow, open folding 88 in level 1 of a DYM has to be a mistake surely.
I do hope there are bustos in this hand, otherwise this journey is going to be an anticlimax.Im thinking the reason for asking for views on how to play this hand, is because it went pear-shaped for tikay.Ger is a wise owl, no need to play a pretty hand this early against the whole table.Each to their own though. I do hope tikay didnt time out. ( curve ball ) Posted by chilling
In Response to Re: What should I do now? : I think it does myself. Otherwise there's no need to ask the question, or for views. Posted by chilling
I think Jac's point is that it's the same as saying 'well we shoved with KK and walked into AA so it's a bad move'.
We can't get the result of this 1 hand from Tikay and use that to say that any decision was right. Maybe he jams and gets called in all 5 spots, but that doesn't mean it's bad longterm, or maybe he folds and then would have got a QJT flop and stacked 2 players who had QJ and TT, and we can't say it's a bad fold because of that etc. So the result is kind of irrelevant
In Response to Re: What should I do now? : I think Jac's point is that it's the same as saying 'well we shoved with KK and walked into AA so it's a bad move'. We can't get the result of this 1 hand from Tikay and use that to say that any decision was right. Maybe he jams and gets called in all 5 spots, but that doesn't mean it's bad longterm, or maybe he folds and then would have got a QJT flop and stacked 2 players who had QJ and TT, and we can't say it's a bad fold because of that etc. So the result is kind of irrelevant Posted by Lambert180
Im presuming tikay is multi-tabling and needs to know what a dym player would instinctively do on auto pilot.The result is important, as it verifies you decision.
Comments
Looking at it another way...
We are 120/1 ish to flop a flush and if we do even the recs are going to see the possibility so unless we are even luckier to be up against Qxh how are busting someone here? We could even get bust by a str8 flush or a set housing up if we do get action.
We are even worse to flop a straight about 300/1 although if we do there may be more chance of extracting value but we can still lose to hands that house up or other flush draws if there are 2 suited cards that are not ours.
In other words we are about 1% to flop the nuts.
Most of the hands we have a chance of connecting with for the pot odds we have will be so vulnerable against a field of 5 random hands and we are out of position.
So no even after all this discussion I don't think folding is a terrible play here, in a dym, at this level, against this field.
Now this bit I do take offence to. I am not lying and I do not believe others who say they would fold are either.
Is there some other reason you are a touch grumpy today?
Being called a liar - when trying to be genuine - I do take offence to.
If you just think I am deluding myself because you cant see any other play than a call - fine we'll agree to differ.
I am beginning to agree with Chilling and just want to see the hand now please :-)
One of the more prevalent arguments being put forward to fold is this is a low level DYM and you'll always get a couple of callers to a shove. So what do you do with kings here (versus two I would estimate we'd be around 65% to win the hand)? Second, very first hand this DYM you have 88 UTG. You just open folding?
Honestly curious considering the arguments being put forward. Very good thread.