In Response to Re: What should I do now? : Im presuming tikay is multi-tabling and needs to know what a dym player would instinctively do on auto pilot.The result is important, as it verifies you decision. Posted by chilling
If someone jams 20bb and we are discussing whether we should call with K8o or not, I'm gonna say you deffo shouldn't. If you do call and the villian shows Q8o and you win the 70/30 does that mean you were right to call?
A couple of scenarios/questions/'what would you do?' for the folders in this thread. One of the more prevalent arguments being put forward to fold is this is a low level DYM and you'll always get a couple of callers to a shove. So what do you do with kings here (versus two I would estimate we'd be around 65% to win the hand)? Second, very first hand this DYM you have 88 UTG. You just open folding? Honestly curious considering the arguments being put forward. Very good thread. Posted by TommyD
Firstly there are no folders in this thread we are all lying ;-)
I dont think you always get 2 callers to a shove, but I would expect 1 at least and often two and much more often they will have pairs not Ax.
Shoving KK AA. I think QQ probably good too given calling ranges and that sometimes times we get 0 or 1 caller.
Against 5 unknown opponents folding 88 1st hand utg yes. If I am confident we only get called and are rarely 3bet then I might open 88 from utg. 88 v one weak opponent, or set mining v a few callers on a passive table is ok but I really try and avoid playing out of position, especially against players I don't know.
In Response to Re: What should I do now? : If someone jams 20bb and we are discussing whether we should call with K8o or not, I'm gonna say you deffo shouldn't. If you do call and the villian shows Q8o and you win the 70/30 does that mean you were right to call? Posted by Lambert180
Well as i see it, the only unusual thing we have here, is the amount of callers.Asking the question was always going to lead to different camps.
Some right some wrong.( in this particular hand ) So it must come down to the view of the player(s) tikay respects the most, if wanting help.
In Response to Re: What should I do now? : If someone jams 20bb and we are discussing whether we should call with K8o or not, I'm gonna say you deffo shouldn't. If you do call and the villian shows Q8o and you win the 70/30 does that mean you were right to call? Posted by Lambert180
Indeed, poker is a betting game, but this hand may involve the whole table
I also think some of these decisions we have to mix up a bit. Were often up against the same players and obv making the same move everytime becomes to predictable
Firstly UTG level one with 88 I'm just min raising.
Back to the main hand but with KK it's an obvious shove, I'd shove QQ+ in that spot. I know people will talk about balancing your range by shoving AK but you don't need to balance your range in a £2.25 dym, I don't want to be rude but 99% of the people in those games aren't looking at your ranges or there own ranges they are looking at the 2 cards in there own hand. Like you say when you shove and get 2 calls with KK we are likely to be 65% well above the required win % required to turn a profit and closer to 80% when we only get one call.
I have a question for the guys saying we should shove AK, when we shove and get a call, before the cards are flipped over are we ever happy that we've been called? are we relieved when everyone folds? And are we ever expecting to be anything other than a 46-48% underdog, assuming we only get one call, i would guess at closer to 30% with 2 calls.
I think what the people, including myself are failing to get across is that while AK may occasionally get you 500 chips in this spot far more often it's going to have you flipping (or worse) in the first level of a DYM. The risk in this exact dym against these exact dym players far outweighs the reward. There is a bigger skill edge to be had in playing small ball poker down the streets.
I would compare it to picking up AA on the bubble of a sat while your sat in second 10 people payed and the chip leader jams on you, calling with AA would be the right play if we needed to accumulate chips but we don't we just need to survive.
AK in this spot of a Mtt, six max or cash game, rip it in/raise it. In a dym just let it go.
Firstly UTG level one with 88 I'm just min raising. Back to the main hand but with KK it's an obvious shove, I'd shove QQ+ in that spot. I know people will talk about balancing your range by shoving AK but you don't need to balance your range in a £2.25 dym, I don't want to be rude but 99% of the people in those games aren't looking at your ranges or there own ranges they are looking at the 2 cards in there own hand. Like you say when you shove and get 2 calls with KK we are likely to be 65% well above the required win % required to turn a profit and closer to 80% when we only get one call. I have a question for the guys saying we should shove AK, when we shove and get a call, before the cards are flipped over are we ever happy that we've been called? are we relieved when everyone folds? And are we ever expecting to be anything other than a 46-48% underdog, assuming we only get one call, i would guess at closer to 30% with 2 calls. I think what the people, including myself are failing to get across is that while AK may occasionally get you 500 chips in this spot far more often it's going to have you flipping (or worse) in the first level of a DYM. The risk in this exact dym against these exact dym players far outweighs the reward. There is a bigger skill edge to be doing in playing small ball poker down the streets. I would compare it to picking up AA on the bubble of a sat while your sat in second 10 people payed and the chip leader jams on you, calling with AA would be the right play if we needed to accumulate chips but we don't we just need to survive. AK in this spot of a Mtt, six max or cash game, rip it in/raise it. In a dym just let it go. Posted by RLT16
In Response to Re: What should I do now? : Firstly there are no folders in this thread we are all lying ;-) I dont think you always get 2 callers to a shove, but I would expect 1 at least and often two and much more often they will have pairs not Ax. Shoving KK AA. I think QQ probably good too given calling ranges and that sometimes times we get 0 or 1 caller. Against 5 unknown opponents folding 88 1st hand utg yes. If I am confident we only get called and are rarely 3bet then I might open 88 from utg. 88 v one weak opponent, or set mining v a few callers on a passive table is ok but I really try and avoid playing out of position, especially against players I don't know. Posted by Phantom66
Firstly UTG level one with 88 I'm just min raising. Back to the main hand but with KK it's an obvious shove, I'd shove QQ+ in that spot. I know people will talk about balancing your range by shoving AK but you don't need to balance your range in a £2.25 dym, I don't want to be rude but 99% of the people in those games aren't looking at your ranges or there own ranges they are looking at the 2 cards in there own hand. Like you say when you shove and get 2 calls with KK we are likely to be 65% well above the required win % required to turn a profit and closer to 80% when we only get one call. I have a question for the guys saying we should shove AK, when we shove and get a call, before the cards are flipped over are we ever happy that we've been called? are we relieved when everyone folds? And are we ever expecting to be anything other than a 46-48% underdog, assuming we only get one call, i would guess at closer to 30% with 2 calls. I think what the people, including myself are failing to get across is that while AK may occasionally get you 500 chips in this spot far more often it's going to have you flipping (or worse) in the first level of a DYM. The risk in this exact dym against these exact dym players far outweighs the reward. There is a bigger skill edge to be had in playing small ball poker down the streets. I would compare it to picking up AA on the bubble of a sat while your sat in second 10 people payed and the chip leader jams on you, calling with AA would be the right play if we needed to accumulate chips but we don't we just need to survive. AK in this spot of a Mtt, six max or cash game, rip it in/raise it. In a dym just let it go. Posted by RLT16
To do that you have to, you know, see flops and not fold and stuff.
i dont play DYMs but my thoughts would be if i shove i may get people to fold and id probably be up against one or two callers which is better than five *unless they are all nuts* if i lose reload another i should be rolled to play these games and i may never get a premium hand again in this game , and if your playin six tables you wont have to think about that hand again on that table
One play that that was ruled out early and not really looked at since. Can we 3bet from the bb to 485 and go from there? Merits We look very strong, although admittedly It may not matter too much in this game. We should probably thin out the field. Disadvantages We are playing for stacks very early If I was to do this then I would be snap folding to an utg shove but calling off v any other shoves. Obv being down to approx 1500 is not great although it by no means rules us out from cashing Posted by Jac35
To add a little grist to that mill, I did have it in my mind that - logically - I only had to worry about one of the 5 players, the original UTG raiser.
He or she is the only concern if we raise or jam, he really COULD have a very big hand. In theory, the 4 peelers behind can't have a hand that would stand another raise, as they would surely have 3 bet initially. Who wants Aces or Kings potentially 5 way? Either would be a dog v 5 players with random holdings.
In Response to Re: What should I do now? : Incred. Posted by hhyftrftdr
Thanks for the insightful post.
At a time when the site is considering investing money in the forum with new s/w (heaven knows we may even be able to post pictures and stuff) I think it is encumbant on all of us to keep the forum a positive place.
I am all for having a debate on strategy and spots and players of all abilities should feel free to post their views without being ridiculed. Taking a post that players have taken time and trouble to make, and replying by highlighting the one line you feel able to ridicule (see also your reply to RLT, other replies to me, your quips to Haysie on another thread) is a cheap tactic.
I tried to take our discussion offline to avoid derailing the thread but you brought it back here.
You also repeatedly called me and 9 others liars for saying we would fold.
I like to post my views on strategy and spots and I never portray myself as an expert. I'll also listen and hopefully learn and make changes in some cases.
As others have said this section of the forum has been way under used and I acknowledge that you make useful contributions in the poker clinic and MTT strategy section.
I just don't understand why you are posting as you are on this thread. It feels personal.
One play that that was ruled out early and not really looked at since. Can we 3bet from the bb to 485 and go from there? Merits We look very strong, although admittedly It may not matter too much in this game. We should probably thin out the field. Disadvantages We are playing for stacks very early If I was to do this then I would be snap folding to an utg shove but calling off v any other shoves. Obv being down to approx 1500 is not great although it by no means rules us out from cashing Posted by Jac35
You have highlighted one problem, if we are behind to UTG we have just lost 25% of our stack when we could have preserved it with a call/fold. However I think we assume UTG is raising wide from what info we have from Tikay.
The other problem is that we are pretty clueless about the other players calling ranges and I wouldn't rule out a reshove with a pair.
If on balance we do not like the shove due to the perceived regularity with which we are called by one or two players then we are likely to get a couple of callers here surely and also open to getting more callers or even a call and a shove.
Where do we go if we get 2+ callers oop on a missed flop? Nice to have preflop aggression on our side if we expect cbets to get through but I would rather test out new opponents on folding to a cbet in a much smaller pot than this.
In Response to Re: What should I do now? : You have highlighted one problem, if we are behind to UTG we have just lost 25% of our stack when we could have preserved it with a call/fold. However I think we assume UTG is raising wide from what info we have from Tikay. The other problem is that we are pretty clueless about the other players calling ranges and I wouldn't rule out a reshove with a pair. If on balance we do not like the shove due to the perceived regularity with which we are called by one or two players then we are likely to get a couple of callers here surely and also open to getting more callers or even a call and a shove. Where do we go if we get 2+ callers oop on a missed flop? Nice to have preflop aggression on our side if we expect cbets to get through but I would rather test out new opponents on folding to a cbet in a much smaller pot than this. Posted by Phantom66
I think it's fairly clear now that you would like to fold this hand pre flop.
Who knows? It might be the correct play.
I myself wouldn't fold it.
I think it's great to chat about hands like this. We can all learn. I also think we have to be careful of being determined that our way is absolutely the right way and never being prepared to waiver in way from that.
In Response to Re: What should I do now? : I think it's fairly clear now that you would like to fold this hand pre flop. Who knows? It might be the correct play. I myself wouldn't fold it. I think it's great to chat about hands like this. We can all learn. I also think we have to be careful of being determined that our way is absolutely the right way and never being prepared to waiver in way from that. Posted by Jac35
And its clear you prefer the call and who knows that might be the correct play (I have said that before on this thread).
I agree 100% it is great to chat about hands like this.
I agree 100% that we have to be careful of being determined that our way is absolutely the right way and never being prepared to waiver in way from that.
I think we know and hopefully understand that I am not vigorously defending the fold v other options or that I am blind to other ways of playing the hand. I am vigorously defending another's assertion that I am lying about my views.
In Response to Re: What should I do now? : You have highlighted one problem, if we are behind to UTG we have just lost 25% of our stack when we could have preserved it with a call/fold. However I think we assume UTG is raising wide from what info we have from Tikay. The other problem is that we are pretty clueless about the other players calling ranges and I wouldn't rule out a reshove with a pair. If on balance we do not like the shove due to the perceived regularity with which we are called by one or two players then we are likely to get a couple of callers here surely and also open to getting more callers or even a call and a shove. Where do we go if we get 2+ callers oop on a missed flop? Nice to have preflop aggression on our side if we expect cbets to get through but I would rather test out new opponents on folding to a cbet in a much smaller pot than this. Posted by Phantom66
As I put this forward as an option (and I completely understand why people say fold or flat, in game I flat here sometimes as well, and in turbo formats its definitely going in) let me explain how i would proceed, we are either 1st or 2nd to act on the flop, dependant on whether sb calls. We assume UTG has come along, so we check to the OR and now we close the action. We could spend another week talking about potential flops, if we have thinned the field (again I understand this wont always happen) we should have an idea of ranges (even at £2) but ofc we need to tread carefully. The thread was about the pre flop action, so what flops or what happens now is largely irrelevant.
I think a big mistake in DYMs is to fold too much, through the first few levels, when you near the bubble one misstep and you lose a chunk, I'd rather have a slightly bigger chunk than the others at that point, so I dont mind losing a few chips speculating early.
Waiting and waiting is akin to playing for penalties,now that really is a flip.
This is a great thread and like many other times I discuss hands with better players (and sometimes Jac and TK) I always learn something......and that has to be good right?
Firstly, DYMs are not my game so I have found some of the chat interesting. I am surprised that DYMs at this level are as soft as they are being made out whereby it seems we can fold everything and sit back while our opponents self implode.
The big strength of AK is its dominating nature but it appears as though we arent expecting calls by AQ/AJ/KQ etc so if that is the case then I understand not shoving. I do find it interesting we potentially expect a call from 22 but not from AQ.
I struggle to see how its not +ev to not be able to see a flop with AK suited and be able to assess post flop where we are based on flop texture and action.
I also struggle with folding as strong as 88 utg but I guess I am underestimating the self implode nature of our opponents. Also we seem to have some saying about outplaying down the streets and some saying fold the majority of our range so I struggle to see what our strategy actually is.
Regarding the 3b option I think you run the risk of getting lots of callers so I wouldnt want to go down that route.
To further the point made by some others, people seem very interested by the actual outcome of the hand. The only benefit of seeing the results is that it helps us assess opponents ranges/actions. Apart from some extra information that we get this really shouldnt impact on our play that much or we are just playing results orientated poker.
Comments
He or she is the only concern if we raise or jam, he really COULD have a very big hand. In theory, the 4 peelers behind can't have a hand that would stand another raise, as they would surely have 3 bet initially. Who wants Aces or Kings potentially 5 way? Either would be a dog v 5 players with random holdings.