In Response to Re: What should I do now? : As I put this forward as an option (and I completely understand why people say fold or flat, in game I flat here sometimes as well, and in turbo formats its definitely going in) let me explain how i would proceed, we are either 1st or 2nd to act on the flop, dependant on whether sb calls. We assume UTG has come along, so we check the OR and now we close the action. We could spend another week talking about potential flops, if we have thinned the field (again I understand this wont always happen) we should have an idea of ranges (even at £2) but ofc we need to tread carefully. The thread was about the pre flop action, so what flops or what happens now is largely irrelevant. I think a big mistake in DYMs is to fold too much, through the first few levels, when you near the bubble one misstep and you lose a chunk, I'd rather have a slightly bigger chunk than the others at that point, so I dont mind losing a few chips speculating early. Waiting and waiting is akin to playing for penalties,now that really is a flip. This is a great thread and like many other times I discuss hands with better players (and sometimes Jac and TK) I always learn something......and that has to be good right? Posted by HENDRIK62
I only raised the post flop as we do need a plan surely as to why we are raising? What size field to we expect to thin to? Is that better than jamming which should thin more - win more uncontested more - but also risk busting more?
In terms of general strategy early doors, I dont ever expect to be able to fold my way to the money. I probably get more involved in pots early doors in PLO8 dyms as that is a drawing game than I do NL. In NL DYMS I am looking to isolate weaker players when I get involved early. Ideally a bit cheaper than 25% of my stack.
Agree 100% that is a great thread and discussions are good for learning.
I really am just trying to explain my views rather than credit them with any great wisdom or belief that it is the "right" way. Better to explain and get a reasoned rebuttable than just say fold pre.
I had advocated a 3 bet in my reply, (and I am no more qualified than anyone else to put forward a suggestion!) in game I would also call a proportion of the time.
I'd not be worried at all if everyone called the 3-bet, in fact this can be good for us this early. The less room there is post flop the more likely it is that one or more of the pre-flop callers will bust. We're going to have a less than a pot sized bet if we get 3 callers, and we can get it in comfortably on a good board and equally get away comfortably if we miss.
I'd still fancy my chances with 1600 chips from level 1 particularly if 1 or 2 bust here.
There are players that have smallish bankrolls and play a single table that are very much results orientated.Take one of those players and with the mindset of playing tight early, as a lot hint at on other threads in dyms is the wtg, then the action so far in this hand leans towards " things could get messy ". In fact, for a player with that strategy, this is an ideal scenario.Fold, you know it makes sense.
Ps. When i first started playing plo8 dyms, i was informed that tikay seldom plays a hand before level five.Different game, but had same strategy.
Interesting thread this. I'm off to have a crack at these DYM games after posting this, they sound like fun.
Personally, never folding here. Rarely flat calling (10% of the time). 3 Bet often (50%), shoving the remainder. Do we have to have one play here every time? I prefer to mix it up.
Prefer the 3 bet. We have 4 flat callers, DYM may be different, but if these are "weak" players I'd have expected a big raise from anyone with a monster. Flat calling an opening raise normally signals to me a bunch of drawing hands, small pair, suited connectors, probably a few raggy aces (people don't like to fold an ace!).
So I want action but I don't want to go bust. I'm probably going with a pot bet, to try and reduce the opposition to 1 or 2. Post flop, will look again. Worst case then I fold the turn and still have 1500 chips. If someone shoves behind me, then fine lets have a race.
I see a few suggestion that we are only really worried about the utg raiser I think that's dangerous because players at this level will slow play stuff to the absolute extreme. I wouldnt be surprised at all to see one of them with aa or kk in this spot a lot. 10s-q's may also be hiding there that would call off a shove and we dont want to start flipping at this stage.
3 betting does have it's advantages by thinning the field and making us look strong (which we are) but i think the risk reward isn't good enough here. We risk going out very early when more often than not the game will be handed to us being able to see tons of flops that they all limp in on and then pay us off handsomely (normally) when we connect. 3 bet just feels like a very swingy move for our overall win rate that we just dont need to take at this level.
Just peel and reassess the flop. Fold if we dont connect with the flop well and then wait for the next chance, of which we'll probably get tons. I agree with matt b though if we think we should easily be able to outplay these guys then lets see a flop and out play them. Folding, with a game plan of outplaying them, to me just sounds like our plan is just not to play them at all.
Personally I would see a flop here with AKs but I'd be more willing to fold AKo. I would most likely shove with AA/KK. AKs plays much better multi-way and you can re-assess the hand after seeing the flop for a small initial investment. You might find players at this level min-betting the flop or betting small enough for you to continue with draws without doing much damage to your stack. Wouldn't get too carried away with top pair though.
Only just seen this thread, what a bun fight this is turning out to be!
For what it's worth I would flat call most of the time, probably miss the flop and check/fold post flop.
A lot of posts about it being a nut drawing hand, which is a good point. I think just as relevant is that the odds we are given for the call are huge (10 to 1?) and the fact that it's a very small percentage of our stack to call and see a flop against players who are probably not that strong (a generalisation I admit).
I would be very surprised if anyone folds pre here (not calling anyone a liar btw just saying I would be surprised), you can even probably justify a call with any two I think. You are still playing with 1900 chips if/when you miss.
In part due to some excellent posts here (especially jd) and also from some offline chat with a winning dym player.
I would call here in the future. I have always got the whole point that we have odds to call with any drawing hand and are closing action and it is only 80 chips out of 2000.
My earlier posts were my genuine attempt to clarify my thinking and help me evaluate my position by explaining my thoughts as to why I would fold. I apologise if anyone thought I was being arrogant or obdurate. They were not intended to be me insisting I was right and others were wrong as I hope this post demonstrates.
I have come to realise that my fold was in part induced by fear of losing out post flop. As matt b and jd say and my offline chats made me see, if we are better than the field we wouldnt or shouldnt be worried about that post flop.
I am not suddenly saying a fold is wrong either. It simplifies decisions which is good for multi-tablers or anyone (like me) who is perhaps not so confident playing multi-way pots out of position.
I am just saying in future I would back myself and see the flop.
I don't think the point of these posts are to all collectively converge onto one 'correct' answer. It is good however that the process helps people to understand the different issues at play.
Wish I had access to offline chats with good winning regs. Think I have jacs number somewhere though.
In Response to Re: What should I do now? : Thanks for the insightful post. At a time when the site is considering investing money in the forum with new s/w (heaven knows we may even be able to post pictures and stuff) I think it is encumbant on all of us to keep the forum a positive place. I am all for having a debate on strategy and spots and players of all abilities should feel free to post their views without being ridiculed. Taking a post that players have taken time and trouble to make, and replying by highlighting the one line you feel able to ridicule (see also your reply to RLT, other replies to me, your quips to Haysie on another thread) is a cheap tactic. I tried to take our discussion offline to avoid derailing the thread but you brought it back here. You also repeatedly called me and 9 others liars for saying we would fold. I like to post my views on strategy and spots and I never portray myself as an expert. I'll also listen and hopefully learn and make changes in some cases. As others have said this section of the forum has been way under used and I acknowledge that you make useful contributions in the poker clinic and MTT strategy section. I just don't understand why you are posting as you are on this thread. It feels personal. Posted by Phantom66
You've seen enough posts from me to know I can be blunt. I think it is incredible anyone would consider folding 88 UTG, level 1, in almost any format of the game. Not ridiculing you, just pointing it out.
I assume you are going to label Enut a liar too? Maybe I didn't articulate myself as well as possible, but what people say here and what people do in game can often be polar opposites (speaking from experience too). I've no doubt, whilst pontificating the hand, you say you'd fold and thats what you firmly think. I think in game most 'folders' will at least call, because its a different kettle of fish when you're sat there and the action is on you.
Maybe you say fold here and fold in game 100% of the time and I'm completely wrong, if so then I apologise, but I think a fair %age of people who say one thing here (fold) would do differently in game, not because they are trying to mislead, just because its the nature of the beast.
No need to take anything personally.
Edit....exchanges between myself and Haysie elsewhere have no bearing on this thread.
In Response to Re: What should I do now? : You've seen enough posts from me to know I can be blunt. Posted by hhyftrftdr
Yup. Sometimes this comes across antagonistic and not always clear whether that is accidentally or on purpose. I guess only you know the intent but you should realise that in black and white and without tone or body language words can seem a lot harsher.
I think it is incredible anyone would consider folding 88 UTG, level 1, in almost any format of the game. Not ridiculing you, just pointing it out.
Fair enough. In my DYM head I play uber tight early doors, maybe too tight, but especially so against an unkown table and in poor position.
I assume you are going to label Enut a liar too?
whooshed me there? I never called anyone a liar?
Maybe I didn't articulate myself as well as possible, but what people say here and what people do in game can often be polar opposites (speaking from experience too). I've no doubt, whilst pontificating the hand, you say you'd fold and thats what you firmly think. I think in game most 'folders' will at least call, because its a different kettle of fish when you're sat there and the action is on you. Maybe you say fold here and fold in game 100% of the time and I'm completely wrong, if so then I apologise, but I think a fair %age of people who say one thing here (fold) would do differently in game, not because they are trying to mislead, just because its the nature of the beast. No need to take anything personally.
I guess noone ever does what exactly what they think they would do in game 100% of the time. Sometimes deliberately for balance and sometimes making a mistake or making subconcious adjustments e.g. due to tilt.
I found it interesting when Neil Channing was commenting on his own play, he fairly often predicted his own action wrong. In game I would expect him to be on his A game and will have better context and a need to balance, whereas commentating he is calling as he sees it with less context even though it was his own play he admitted to not remembering many hands.
It certainly came across as questioning my honesty and integrity (and that of others). Thanks for your explanation. It makes more sense. The apology seems a touch over conditional for my liking as I suspect I would not fold 100% in game no. I genuinely would have expected me to fold that 80%+ of the time in game.
Thank you for clarifying it was not a personal attack.
Edit...RE:Haysie comment. OK Withdrawn. Should I withdraw the compliment on your poker clinic/tournament strategy posts as well for balance?
lol.....''questioning your integrity'' but now you concede you'd peel circa 20% of the time in game? Better put a wink so you don't think its a personal attack....
In Response to Re: What should I do now? : Yup. Sometimes this comes across antagonistic and not always clear whether that is accidentally or on purpose. I guess only you know the intent but you should realise that in black and white and without tone or body language words can seem a lot harsher. Fair enough. In my DYM head I play uber tight early doors, maybe too tight, but especially so against an unkown table and in poor position. whooshed me there? I never called anyone a liar? I guess noone ever does what exactly what they think they would do in game 100% of the time. Sometimes deliberately for balance and sometimes making a mistake or making subconcious adjustments e.g. due to tilt. I found it interesting when Neil Channing was commenting on his own play, he fairly often predicted his own action wrong. In game I would expect him to be on his A game and will have better context and a need to balance, whereas commentating he is calling as he sees it with less context even though it was his own play he admitted to not remembering many hands. It certainly came across as questioning my honesty and integrity (and that of others). Thanks for your explanation. It makes more sense. The apology seems a touch over conditional for my liking as I suspect I would not fold 100% in game no. I genuinely would have expected me to fold that 80%+ of the time in game. Thank you for clarifying it was not a personal attack. Edit...RE:Haysie comment. OK Withdrawn. Should I withdraw the compliment on your poker clinic/tournament strategy posts as well for balance? Posted by Phantom66
lol.....''questioning your integrity'' but now you concede you'd peel circa 20% of the time in game? Better put a wink so you don't think its a personal attack.... Posted by hhyftrftdr
You originally said this...
"I also don't believe for one minute that anyone actually folds this pre in game."
But now for being honest and saying I probably wouldnt do what I thought 100% of the time you claim that justifies your original statement?
In Response to Re: What should I do now? : You originally said this... " I also don't believe for one minute that anyone actually folds this pre in game." But now for being honest and saying I probably wouldnt do what I thought 100% of the time you claim that justifies your original statement? Posted by Phantom66
Well it partly justifies it no? Maybe 20% justification?
Comments
Personally, never folding here. Rarely flat calling (10% of the time). 3 Bet often (50%), shoving the remainder. Do we have to have one play here every time? I prefer to mix it up.
Prefer the 3 bet. We have 4 flat callers, DYM may be different, but if these are "weak" players I'd have expected a big raise from anyone with a monster. Flat calling an opening raise normally signals to me a bunch of drawing hands, small pair, suited connectors, probably a few raggy aces (people don't like to fold an ace!).
So I want action but I don't want to go bust. I'm probably going with a pot bet, to try and reduce the opposition to 1 or 2. Post flop, will look again. Worst case then I fold the turn and still have 1500 chips. If someone shoves behind me, then fine lets have a race.
Only just seen this thread, what a bun fight this is turning out to be!
For what it's worth I would flat call most of the time, probably miss the flop and check/fold post flop.
A lot of posts about it being a nut drawing hand, which is a good point. I think just as relevant is that the odds we are given for the call are huge (10 to 1?) and the fact that it's a very small percentage of our stack to call and see a flop against players who are probably not that strong (a generalisation I admit).
I would be very surprised if anyone folds pre here (not calling anyone a liar btw just saying I would be surprised), you can even probably justify a call with any two I think. You are still playing with 1900 chips if/when you miss.
Turbo DYM might be tempted to all in though!
Hand History #1122682915 (18:15 17/01/2017)