HAYSIE , just as a matter of interest why are you quoting Peter Mandelson a person who had to resign twice from the cabinet and in my opinion should have gone to prison. Tony Blair who took this country to war on a pack of lies and a minimum of 100000 Iraquis paid with their lives. Nick Clegg who managed to take the Liberal party from 50 odd MP's down to 12 (a roaring success) all for the price of ministerial car. Charles Kennedy an alcoholic. You also moan about Corbyn , but he has pretty much been against the EU most of his political life
HAYSIE , just as a matter of interest why are you quoting Peter Mandelson a person who had to resign twice from the cabinet and in my opinion should have gone to prison. Tony Blair who took this country to war on a pack of lies and a minimum of 100000 Iraquis paid with their lives. Nick Clegg who managed to take the Liberal party from 50 odd MP's down to 12 (a roaring success) all for the price of ministerial car. Charles Kennedy an alcoholic. You also moan about Corbyn , but he has pretty much been against the EU most of his political life
I am not going to argue with your opinions, but they do belong to you.
The post in question is something that I copied and pasted in response to yesroys post regarding the disorganised way in which the referendum was planned. The comments were made prior to referendum, and I thought it was interesting to see who said what before it actually happened. Whether or not Peter Mandelson has nearly been to jail twice, or not, doesn't mean he doesn't have valid political opinions. This is a Brexit thread, and I think his opinions on Brexit are quite popular. However if it was a thread about nearly going to jail, he might deserve more prominence. If all politicians that had nearly been to jail were disallowed from expressing a view, the House of Commons would be very quiet most days. Mark Lamarr got charged with assault today, but that doesn't mean he isn't funny anymore.
Tony Blair was a very popular Prime Minister, and if he replaced Jeremy Corbyn tomorrow, I would be happy to vote Labour. I think that a man with his political experience has views that should be taken note of.
Getting involved with the coalition is now seen as a mistake made by the Liberals. If you could remake all your decisions with the benefit of hindsight, nobody would ever put a foot wrong. I am sure that he saw it as an opportunity to influence some legislation, rather than just to get a company car. He is still allowed to have opinions, and you are allowed to ignore them.
Charles Kennedy did turn into an alcoholic unfortunately. This was obviously after reaching the position of Party Leader, heights that the vast majority of us will never achieve, whether we are drunk or sober.
The article about Jeremy Corbyn was pointing out that the referendum was beyond party political interests. It was surely about what was best for the country. Jeremy Corbyn not only didn't cooperate with the remain campaign, he was invisible. It is surely obvious to everyone now that leaving will be a mistake, but Jeremy Corbyn said little. This was the biggest decision our country was to make for generations, and the leader of the opposition was speechless. He didnt play any part in the campaign. If Tony Blair was still the Labour Party Leader, I am certain remain would have won. Tony Blair would have influenced public opinion. Jeremy Corbyn cant even say what he supports 2 years later.
I am sorry to say that Mr Corbyns leadership skills appear to be non existent.
HAYSIE said "It is surely obvious to everyone now that leaving will be a mistake" i'm not sure you're correct on that. I believe if there was a second referendum the result would be reversed but would be a lot tighter than you think, personally i didn't vote and haven't voted for over 20 years (wouldn't vote in another referendum either). I see all politicians as peeing in the same pot , all feathering their own nest. If David Cameron had been listening to people outside of London he wouldn't have called a referendum in the first place because he would have realised the possibility he could lose. Personally i think he was to concerned with the rise of UKIP and internal in fighting within the Tory party over Europe, winning a referendum would dampen down the pressure on him
HAYSIE said "It is surely obvious to everyone now that leaving will be a mistake" i'm not sure you're correct on that. I believe if there was a second referendum the result would be reversed but would be a lot tighter than you think, personally i didn't vote and haven't voted for over 20 years (wouldn't vote in another referendum either). I see all politicians as peeing in the same pot , all feathering their own nest. If David Cameron had been listening to people outside of London he wouldn't have called a referendum in the first place because he would have realised the possibility he could lose. Personally i think he was to concerned with the rise of UKIP and internal in fighting within the Tory party over Europe, winning a referendum would dampen down the pressure on him
I would admit to the fact that the claim that everyone knows that leaving will be a mistake, is an exaggeration.
However I do believe that there is a growing number of people that are coming to the conclusion that many of the claims made by the leave side during the campaign, were lies, and cannot be achieved.
David Davies we will retain exactly the same benefits. Liam Fox, the easiest deal in history Then there was the bus.
There appears to be a growing number of people in favour of another vote.
When David Cameron called the referendum, it was clearly with a view to placating members of his own party, rather than because it was for the good of the country. It became a half hearted campaign, because he didn't think that his side could possibly lose.
The difficulty we have is that there is not a clear majority in Parliament for any solution.
Some people are calling for a General Election, but I am not sure how that helps. What happens if Labour wins, do they start negotiations from scratch. They would then have to come up with an opinion on Brexit, something they seem reluctant to do.
If the Conservatives won, we would be back to square one.
Nigel Farage called for a second referendum prior to the first one, when he thought remain was going to win.
Nigel Farage wants second referendum if Remain campaign scrapes narrow win
Nigel Farage warns today he would fight for a second referendum on Britain in Europe if the remain campaign won by a narrow margin next month. The Ukip leader said a small defeat for his leave camp would be “unfinished business” and predicted pressure would grow for a re-run of the 23 June ballot.
Farage's call for second Brexit vote greeted with glee by remainers Pro-EU campaigners back former Ukip leader’s suggestion of second referendum to ‘kill off’ issue for a generation
Nigel Farage’s surprise call for Britain to prepare for a second EU referendum has ignited hopes among anti-Brexit campaigners that both sides of the debate will back a poll on Theresa May’s final deal. The former Ukip leader shocked his colleagues on Thursday by suggesting another Brexit vote should be held, arguing it would lead to a more decisive victory for the leave campaign and silence remain supporters for a generation. On Friday, he said he was calling on the leave side to prepare for a second vote because of the likelihood that one would be brought about when, as he expected, parliament rejected the deal eventually struck with the EU.
Labour have said that unless the Brexit deal passes their 6 tests they will vote against it.
Fair migration system for UK business and communities Retaining strong, collaborative relationship with EU Protecting national security and tackling cross-border crime Delivering for all nations and regions of the UK Protecting workers' rights and employment protections Ensuring same benefits currently enjoyed within single market
The last one will be impossible to achieve, they might just as well have demanded that the EU gives a million pounds to every UK citizen. If we could get the same benefits on the outside, every other country would leave.
This means that whatever the deal looks like, the ERG, and the Labour Party will ensure it doesn't get through Parliament, by voting against. The last 2 years have therefore been a complete waste of time, when they could have been getting on with other important issues.
London mayor calls for second referendum on Brexit: Observer
LONDON (Reuters) - London mayor Sadiq Khan has called for another referendum on Britain's European Union membership, adding his backing to an idea known as a "People's Vote". Britain is due to leave the European Union on March 29. But with Prime Minister Theresa May's Brexit plans still not accepted, some lawmakers, as well as union and business leaders are increasingly arguing for people to have a final say on any deal struck with Brussels.
UK growth forecasts downgraded due to Brexit, new BCC figures reveal
UK economic growth forecasts have been downgraded to ‘snail’s pace’ because Brexit uncertainty has led to a weaker outlook for trade and investment, the British Chambers of Commerce said.
Gloomy Brexit forecasts for UK are coming true, says IMF
The International Monetary Fund has strongly defended its gloomy forecasts for the UK after Brexit, saying pre-referendum warnings of slower growth were coming true. Christine Lagarde, the fund’s managing director, said the vote to leave the EU in June 2016 was already having an impact and Britain’s weaker growth this year was in contrast to accelerating activity in the rest of the world.
The International Monetary Fund has warned that a "no-deal" Brexit on World Trade Organization terms would entail "substantial costs" for the UK economy.
"Any deal will not be as good as the smooth process under which goods, services, people and capital move around between the EU and the UK without impediments and obstacles." A no-deal outcome would affect other EU economies "to a lesser extent", the IMF said.
Ms Lagarde said a "disorderly" or "crash" exit from the EU would have a series of consequences, including reduced growth, an increased deficit and depreciation of sterling, leading to a reduction in the size of the UK economy.
When questioned regarding Mark Carneys prediction of a 35% reduction in house prices resulting from a no deal Brexit, Theresa May stuttered, shrugged and described the prospect as a short term disruption. I wonder if the people who then suffer from negative equity, older people in equity release schemes, and those with interest only mortgages, would see it in the same way.
Theresa May and her slippery Government have been caught out. I think the plan they had in mind to overcome the Irish border plan, was to agree a backstop plan, that they could never implement. The trade deal was then supposed to supersede the backstop, and eliminate the need for an Irish border.
In the future a UK Government could amend the conditions of the trade deal, and the EU would end up without a border, and no negotiating power.
The EU are having none of it.
We won’t let future PM unpick Brexit deal, vows Michel Barnier
The European Union is insisting on cast iron guarantees that Britain will not attempt to reopen the terms of any Brexit deal after it has been signed, confidential diplomatic notes reveal. The Times has learnt that, in a rebuff to Michael Gove, Brussels is preparing to demand that Theresa May makes “credible” assurances that any deal will not be unpicked by her successor. Mr Gove, the environment secretary, claimed at the weekend that a future prime minister could “choose to alter” the relationship between Britain and the EU. The comments were an attempt to assuage the concerns of Brexiteers that signing up to a Chequers-style plan would shackle Britain to European regulations indefinitely.
Theresa Mays seems to be now saying to everybody that it is now a choice of the Chequers plan or no deal. Her own party is not keen on it, The EU don't like it, and Parliament wont vote for it. It seems that all the experts are saying that a no deal will be an absolute disaster. So what happens next? Will the Government fall? Will there be a General Election? Will there be another referendum? I cant see an election being an answer. If Labour won what would happen? Would we just be in the same boat in 2 years time? If the Tories won, would they just start negotiations all over again?
What could be done in the 6 months that we have left?
Even another referendum is only the answer if remain wins. If leave won again we would be back to square one.
Comments
The post in question is something that I copied and pasted in response to yesroys post regarding the disorganised way in which the referendum was planned.
The comments were made prior to referendum, and I thought it was interesting to see who said what before it actually happened.
Whether or not Peter Mandelson has nearly been to jail twice, or not, doesn't mean he doesn't have valid political opinions. This is a Brexit thread, and I think his opinions on Brexit are quite popular. However if it was a thread about nearly going to jail, he might deserve more prominence. If all politicians that had nearly been to jail were disallowed from expressing a view, the House of Commons would be very quiet most days.
Mark Lamarr got charged with assault today, but that doesn't mean he isn't funny anymore.
Tony Blair was a very popular Prime Minister, and if he replaced Jeremy Corbyn tomorrow, I would be happy to vote Labour. I think that a man with his political experience has views that should be taken note of.
Getting involved with the coalition is now seen as a mistake made by the Liberals. If you could remake all your decisions with the benefit of hindsight, nobody would ever put a foot wrong. I am sure that he saw it as an opportunity to influence some legislation, rather than just to get a company car. He is still allowed to have opinions, and you are allowed to ignore them.
Charles Kennedy did turn into an alcoholic unfortunately. This was obviously after reaching the position of Party Leader, heights that the vast majority of us will never achieve, whether we are drunk or sober.
The article about Jeremy Corbyn was pointing out that the referendum was beyond party political interests.
It was surely about what was best for the country.
Jeremy Corbyn not only didn't cooperate with the remain campaign, he was invisible.
It is surely obvious to everyone now that leaving will be a mistake, but Jeremy Corbyn said little.
This was the biggest decision our country was to make for generations, and the leader of the opposition was speechless. He didnt play any part in the campaign.
If Tony Blair was still the Labour Party Leader, I am certain remain would have won. Tony Blair would have influenced public opinion.
Jeremy Corbyn cant even say what he supports 2 years later.
I am sorry to say that Mr Corbyns leadership skills appear to be non existent.
However I do believe that there is a growing number of people that are coming to the conclusion that many of the claims made by the leave side during the campaign, were lies, and cannot be achieved.
David Davies we will retain exactly the same benefits.
Liam Fox, the easiest deal in history
Then there was the bus.
There appears to be a growing number of people in favour of another vote.
When David Cameron called the referendum, it was clearly with a view to placating members of his own party, rather than because it was for the good of the country. It became a half hearted campaign, because he didn't think that his side could possibly lose.
The difficulty we have is that there is not a clear majority in Parliament for any solution.
Some people are calling for a General Election, but I am not sure how that helps. What happens if Labour wins, do they start negotiations from scratch. They would then have to come up with an opinion on Brexit, something they seem reluctant to do.
If the Conservatives won, we would be back to square one.
Another vote is needed.
Nigel Farage wants second referendum if Remain campaign scrapes narrow win
Nigel Farage warns today he would fight for a second referendum on Britain in Europe if the remain campaign won by a narrow margin next month.
The Ukip leader said a small defeat for his leave camp would be “unfinished business” and predicted pressure would grow for a re-run of the 23 June ballot.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017
AND AGAIN EARLIER THIS YEAR
Farage's call for second Brexit vote greeted with glee by remainers
Pro-EU campaigners back former Ukip leader’s suggestion of second referendum to ‘kill off’ issue for a generation
Nigel Farage’s surprise call for Britain to prepare for a second EU referendum has ignited hopes among anti-Brexit campaigners that both sides of the debate will back a poll on Theresa May’s final deal.
The former Ukip leader shocked his colleagues on Thursday by suggesting another Brexit vote should be held, arguing it would lead to a more decisive victory for the leave campaign and silence remain supporters for a generation.
On Friday, he said he was calling on the leave side to prepare for a second vote because of the likelihood that one would be brought about when, as he expected, parliament rejected the deal eventually struck with the EU.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/11/nigel-farage-backs-fresh-brexit-referendum-to-kill-off-issue
Fair migration system for UK business and communities
Retaining strong, collaborative relationship with EU
Protecting national security and tackling cross-border crime
Delivering for all nations and regions of the UK
Protecting workers' rights and employment protections
Ensuring same benefits currently enjoyed within single market
The last one will be impossible to achieve, they might just as well have demanded that the EU gives a million pounds to every UK citizen.
If we could get the same benefits on the outside, every other country would leave.
This means that whatever the deal looks like, the ERG, and the Labour Party will ensure it doesn't get through Parliament, by voting against.
The last 2 years have therefore been a complete waste of time, when they could have been getting on with other important issues.
LONDON (Reuters) - London mayor Sadiq Khan has called for another referendum on Britain's European Union membership, adding his backing to an idea known as a "People's Vote".
Britain is due to leave the European Union on March 29. But with Prime Minister Theresa May's Brexit plans still not accepted, some lawmakers, as well as union and business leaders are increasingly arguing for people to have a final say on any deal struck with Brussels.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/london-mayor-calls-second-referendum-205104064.html
UK economic growth forecasts have been downgraded to ‘snail’s pace’ because Brexit uncertainty has led to a weaker outlook for trade and investment, the British Chambers of Commerce said.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/uk-growth-forecasts-downgraded-due-072300133.html
The International Monetary Fund has strongly defended its gloomy forecasts for the UK after Brexit, saying pre-referendum warnings of slower growth were coming true.
Christine Lagarde, the fund’s managing director, said the vote to leave the EU in June 2016 was already having an impact and Britain’s weaker growth this year was in contrast to accelerating activity in the rest of the world.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/dec/20/imf-christine-lagarde-brexit-forecasts-growth-uk-economy
"Any deal will not be as good as the smooth process under which goods, services, people and capital move around between the EU and the UK without impediments and obstacles."
A no-deal outcome would affect other EU economies "to a lesser extent", the IMF said.
Ms Lagarde said a "disorderly" or "crash" exit from the EU would have a series of consequences, including reduced growth, an increased deficit and depreciation of sterling, leading to a reduction in the size of the UK economy.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45546785
I wonder if the people who then suffer from negative equity, older people in equity release schemes, and those with interest only mortgages, would see it in the same way.
Getting our country and identity back.
I think the plan they had in mind to overcome the Irish border plan, was to agree a backstop plan, that they could never implement.
The trade deal was then supposed to supersede the backstop, and eliminate the need for an Irish border.
In the future a UK Government could amend the conditions of the trade deal, and the EU would end up without a border, and no negotiating power.
The EU are having none of it.
We won’t let future PM unpick Brexit deal, vows Michel Barnier
The European Union is insisting on cast iron guarantees that Britain will not attempt to reopen the terms of any Brexit deal after it has been signed, confidential diplomatic notes reveal.
The Times has learnt that, in a rebuff to Michael Gove, Brussels is preparing to demand that Theresa May makes “credible” assurances that any deal will not be unpicked by her successor.
Mr Gove, the environment secretary, claimed at the weekend that a future prime minister could “choose to alter” the relationship between Britain and the EU. The comments were an attempt to assuage the concerns of Brexiteers that signing up to a Chequers-style plan would shackle Britain to European regulations indefinitely.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/we-won-t-let-may-s-successor-unpick-brexit-deal-vows-michel-barnier-j5x77bqpb
Her own party is not keen on it, The EU don't like it, and Parliament wont vote for it.
It seems that all the experts are saying that a no deal will be an absolute disaster.
So what happens next?
Will the Government fall?
Will there be a General Election?
Will there be another referendum?
I cant see an election being an answer. If Labour won what would happen? Would we just be in the same boat in 2 years time?
If the Tories won, would they just start negotiations all over again?
What could be done in the 6 months that we have left?
Even another referendum is only the answer if remain wins. If leave won again we would be back to square one.