A cleverer Prime Minister might have found out what sort of deal we could get, and then had the referendum. Thereby giving the electorate the clear choice of leaving on the terms of the new deal or staying in. Nobody could have moaned on that basis.
Exactly. It would have made all the other countries consider their own position at the same time. No one-sided deals but a deal for all. A much neater arrangement.
A cleverer Prime Minister might have found out what sort of deal we could get, and then had the referendum.
The problem with this strategy is that the EU wouldn't give up that information in that spot. It would make no sense for them to do so because they would then lose leverage in negotiations following a "Leave" result.
The only logical options in that spot from the EU perspective are to either say nothing without a "Leave" result, or promise the worst case scenario.
A cleverer Prime Minister might have found out what sort of deal we could get, and then had the referendum.
The problem with this strategy is that the EU wouldn't give up that information in that spot. It would make no sense for them to do so because they would then lose leverage in negotiations following a "Leave" result.
The only logical options in that spot from the EU perspective are to either say nothing without a "Leave" result, or promise the worst case scenario.
I don't agree. I think that the EU are being criticised for merely sticking to their rules. Both sides desperately want a deal. The problem from our side is that we will end up with a deal that nobody is happy with. She knows what the Brexiteers want, she also knows what the Remainers want, but she is trying to reach a compromise by getting a deal which is somewhere in the middle. This compromise will make nobody happy. It is foolish to blame the EU, when it has taken us 2 years to put a proposal forward.
Also I think if they had organised it that way around, a Leave vote would have been far less likely, and I am certain that the EU would have been aware of this.
It is foolish to blame the EU, when it has taken us 2 years to put a proposal forward.
Also I think if they had organised it that way around, a Leave vote would have been far less likely, and I am certain that the EU would have been aware of this.
Not blaming them - I think they've taken pretty much the optimal line throughout.
But it's bigger than just us leaving from the EU's perspective - If they give us any kind of half decent deal, then it's probably going to encourage other countries within the EU to leave in hopes of a similar (or better) deal, until the EU in its current form ceases to exist.
Also, if negotiations take place prior to a referendum and a leave result still happens, maybe it's a less likely outcome (idk) but it's also far more catastrophic from the EU perspective than the situation we have now where 'Leave' wins and look like absolute idiots for that.
Think about where offering us a deal prior to a referendum and us voting leave anyway would put the EU in 10 years time. That's the problem.
I think the real point is that the EU aren't going to negotiate a deal. They may have some leeway on minor points, but they will stick to their rules on all the major things. I am sure they would have agreed a Norway, Canada, or a Switzerland deal before the referendum. Despite all the statements from the EU to the contrary, Theresa May still thinks she can have her cake and eat it, and cherry pick to her hearts content. They have their rules, and they will stick to them. The Chequers proposal which will not be accepted by the EU, doesn't even cover services. Services comprise 80% of our economy. There is not a majority in Parliament, or either of the major political partys in favour of any particular type of Brexit. We are therefore likely to end up with a deal that nobody is happy with.
Someone from the EU said the other day that we have spent 45 years as members trying to opt out of everything, and now we want to be non members opting into everything.
Just when you think it cant get any worse, Mrs May is trying to send MPs home early for their Summer holidays, in order to avoid any further rebellion, and avoid a leadership challenge.
It is hard to imagine how we got to where we are. Clearly both sides want a deal. "No Deal" will not benefit either side. It has taken Theresa May two years to put a proposal on the table, that her Cabinet are supposed to be agreed upon. Yet more resignations are expected. David Davies the former Brexit Secretary was working on a completely different plan, and was not aware that the Chequers proposal existed until he arrived there.
Theresa May brags about reaching a deal on the three items that make up the Withdrawal Agreement. These items were citizens rights, the Irish border, and how much money we owe them. When in fact, both the UK citizens in Europe, and the EU citizens in the UK are not yet happy. The Irish border is nowhere near sorted. The new Brexit Secretary is now threatening to not pay our bill. My understanding is that we are not giving them any money, we are merely fulfilling financial commitments that we have already made. Assuming this is the case the EU would have a legal right to recover this money, and therefore a worthless threat. This is surely a matter of honour. I am uncertain in which way he would think that the threat of not paying our bill will improve the negotiations.
Theresa Mays underhandedness on the backstop agreement is coming back to bite her. She agreed to it last December, and in March this year. It seems strange that she can no longer agree to it.
The Conservative Party is split on the Chequers proposal, and the experts say that there is no majority in the House of Commons for any deal. This obviously makes the prospect of no deal much more likely.
A Conservative MP on television on the weekend described "No Deal" as a State of Emergency.
The Labour Party are pretty pathetic on this, merely spouting at every opportunity they get that unless the Governments deal passes their 6 tests they will vote it down. One of these tests is that we must get the same benefits as we have now. More chance of a herd of pigs flying past my window.
I understand what you're saying, but surely these are just facts. Your heart must have soared - much like mine did - when Theresa May said we're going to have a "red, white and blue Brexit."
I understand what you're saying, but surely these are just facts. Your heart must have soared - much like mine did - when Theresa May said we're going to have a "red, white and blue Brexit."
Comments
Nobody could have moaned on that basis.
Leave ....... everyone else is ?
The only logical options in that spot from the EU perspective are to either say nothing without a "Leave" result, or promise the worst case scenario.
I think that the EU are being criticised for merely sticking to their rules.
Both sides desperately want a deal.
The problem from our side is that we will end up with a deal that nobody is happy with. She knows what the Brexiteers want, she also knows what the Remainers want, but she is trying to reach a compromise by getting a deal which is somewhere in the middle. This compromise will make nobody happy.
It is foolish to blame the EU, when it has taken us 2 years to put a proposal forward.
Also I think if they had organised it that way around, a Leave vote would have been far less likely, and I am certain that the EU would have been aware of this.
But it's bigger than just us leaving from the EU's perspective - If they give us any kind of half decent deal, then it's probably going to encourage other countries within the EU to leave in hopes of a similar (or better) deal, until the EU in its current form ceases to exist.
Also, if negotiations take place prior to a referendum and a leave result still happens, maybe it's a less likely outcome (idk) but it's also far more catastrophic from the EU perspective than the situation we have now where 'Leave' wins and look like absolute idiots for that.
Think about where offering us a deal prior to a referendum and us voting leave anyway would put the EU in 10 years time. That's the problem.
Despite all the statements from the EU to the contrary, Theresa May still thinks she can have her cake and eat it, and cherry pick to her hearts content.
They have their rules, and they will stick to them.
The Chequers proposal which will not be accepted by the EU, doesn't even cover services. Services comprise 80% of our economy.
There is not a majority in Parliament, or either of the major political partys in favour of any particular type of Brexit.
We are therefore likely to end up with a deal that nobody is happy with.
Someone from the EU said the other day that we have spent 45 years as members trying to opt out of everything, and now we want to be non members opting into everything.
It has taken Theresa May two years to put a proposal on the table, that her Cabinet are supposed to be agreed upon. Yet more resignations are expected.
David Davies the former Brexit Secretary was working on a completely different plan, and was not aware that the Chequers proposal existed until he arrived there.
Theresa May brags about reaching a deal on the three items that make up the Withdrawal Agreement. These items were citizens rights, the Irish border, and how much money we owe them. When in fact, both the UK citizens in Europe, and the EU citizens in the UK are not yet happy. The Irish border is nowhere near sorted. The new Brexit Secretary is now threatening to not pay our bill. My understanding is that we are not giving them any money, we are merely fulfilling financial commitments that we have already made. Assuming this is the case the EU would have a legal right to recover this money, and therefore a worthless threat. This is surely a matter of honour. I am uncertain in which way he would think that the threat of not paying our bill will improve the negotiations.
Theresa Mays underhandedness on the backstop agreement is coming back to bite her. She agreed to it last December, and in March this year. It seems strange that she can no longer agree to it.
The Conservative Party is split on the Chequers proposal, and the experts say that there is no majority in the House of Commons for any deal. This obviously makes the prospect of no deal much more likely.
A Conservative MP on television on the weekend described "No Deal" as a State of Emergency.
The Labour Party are pretty pathetic on this, merely spouting at every opportunity they get that unless the Governments deal passes their 6 tests they will vote it down. One of these tests is that we must get the same benefits as we have now. More chance of a herd of pigs flying past my window.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/brexit-ads-used-leave-campaign-172900958.html