I understand what you're saying, but surely these are just facts. Your heart must have soared - much like mine did - when Theresa May said we're going to have a "red, white and blue Brexit."
I assumed she was referring to the tricolore
I'll take a white, white and white Brexit at this point tbf if it means giving up on the whole thing.
I understand what you're saying, but surely these are just facts. Your heart must have soared - much like mine did - when Theresa May said we're going to have a "red, white and blue Brexit."
Her words and deeds don't necessarily amount to the same thing.
I understand what you're saying, but surely these are just facts. Your heart must have soared - much like mine did - when Theresa May said we're going to have a "red, white and blue Brexit."
I understand what you're saying, but surely these are just facts. Your heart must have soared - much like mine did - when Theresa May said we're going to have a "red, white and blue Brexit."
Also, these are lies rather than facts, that may have have swayed many people to vote to leave. The other thing is that the experts are saying that there is no majority in the House of Commons for any deal. So whatever she comes back with cant get through. A demand will grow for a vote to accept the deal she gets, or to stay in, and may be the only way out of the mess.
I think the most amazing thing about the referendum was that we didn't have one politician clever enough to point out the Irish border problem beforehand. With hindsight it is impossible to think that the EU wouldn't insist on a border to protect the integrity of their Single Market. Realistically there are only two places that a border could be set up. I think that the EU have been quite flexible in agreeing to the border being set up in the Irish Sea, rather than on the island of Ireland, and threatening the Peace Process. The obvious solution to the problem is for the UK to stay in the Single Market, and the Customs Union. However the UK Government have failed to find a solution to this problem in the 2 years since the referendum. Theresa May has maintained the most ridiculous negotiating position. She is adamant that we will leave both the Single Market and the Customs Union, but wishes to remain as close as possible to both. She has maintained throughout that no British Prime Minister would ever impose a hard border on the island of Ireland, or in the Irish Sea. The Irish Sea option is unacceptable to the DUP, and a fall out with them loses her majority in the House of Commons.
I find it ridiculous that she should think that staying as close as possible to the Single Market, and Customs Union is somehow honouring peoples wishes in the referendum, yet actually remaining in them wouldn't.
The only thing we have definitely voted for is to leave the EU. No-one voted on being in or out of the Customs Union or the Single Market.
There is 1 part of me that says that if 52% wanted to leave the EU in total in any of the various ways, then considerably less than 50% wanted to leave the Customs Union. But we will never know, because that prize dumpling "trotters up" Cameron didn't bother to give any of the important options to the great unwashed (or any of the key facts), as well as not bothering to campaign for something that he believed in.
Why anyone votes for the Tories at the minute escapes me. Cameron put his own self-interest (keeping the 1922 Committee happy) ahead of the country he was supposedly leading. May is doing exactly the same in relation to the Irish border-Northern Ireland would remain in the Customs Union, at very least temporarily, but for her self-interest in keeping the DUP sweet.
So the whole of the UK will end up with no deal because of 10 MPs representing part of Northern Ireland, which is of itself less than 3% of the UK population. And this is democracy?
I really hope that this spells the end for this generation of Tory politicians. They disgust me.
The only thing we have definitely voted for is to leave the EU. No-one voted on being in or out of the Customs Union or the Single Market.
There is 1 part of me that says that if 52% wanted to leave the EU in total in any of the various ways, then considerably less than 50% wanted to leave the Customs Union. But we will never know, because that prize dumpling "trotters up" Cameron didn't bother to give any of the important options to the great unwashed (or any of the key facts), as well as not bothering to campaign for something that he believed in.
Why anyone votes for the Tories at the minute escapes me. Cameron put his own self-interest (keeping the 1922 Committee happy) ahead of the country he was supposedly leading. May is doing exactly the same in relation to the Irish border-Northern Ireland would remain in the Customs Union, at very least temporarily, but for her self-interest in keeping the DUP sweet.
So the whole of the UK will end up with no deal because of 10 MPs representing part of Northern Ireland, which is of itself less than 3% of the UK population. And this is democracy?
I really hope that this spells the end for this generation of Tory politicians. They disgust me.
The only people that know what the majority voted for in the referendum are the Brexiteers, because they point out at every opportunity that everyone knew what they were voting for, which was clearly not the case. The whole thing is full of contradictions, for example, one of the EU suggestions for the Irish border, was for Northern Ireland to remain in the Customs Union. The DUP wont have that under any circumstances, yet the people of Northern Ireland voted overwhelmingly to remain in the referendum. The Chequers plan is not based on what is best for the country, but what she can get away with, taking into account the differing views of the Tory Party. All the evidence that has been produced shows that we will be worse off through leaving. It is just a matter of how much worse off. We will not only be losing trade with the EU, we will lose access to all the EU free trade deals, of which there are many, and many more are in negotiation. The Brexiteers don't mention these, nor the fact that it will take many years after we leave to redo these deals.
The Chequers solution which puts forward a Common Rulebook solution to the Irish Border would disallow us from free trade deals elsewhere. This is the main argument from some Brexiteers for leaving in the first place. Her argument is that at some point in the future we could deviate from these rules to accommodate a free trade deal with another country, without pointing out that this would recreate the need for an Irish Border. The Labour Party are showing no leadership in this debacle, and should be smashing the Tories in the polls. Amazingly UKIP have just had a boost in their polling. Good to see Labour trying to deselect the MPs that voted with the government the other day. If this continues and ends up in a mess that seems likely, it will take the British public a long time to forgive the Tories, and I am not sure that Labour will get off scot free.
The only sensible outcome would be to get the deal ready, and then to vote on the deal or to stay in.
It will be a massive struggle if they dont trust Mrs May.
The British government has so far failed to offer a "workable" backstop plan to avoid Brexit border frictions in Ireland and must do so now if the European Parliament is to endorse a smooth transition out of the EU, lawmakers warned on Friday. After briefings by EU negotiators and reviewing British statements, the European Parliament's Brexit Steering Group made clear that Prime Minister Theresa May's White Paper this month setting out how future EU-UK trade relations would avert customs and other disruptions on the divided island was not acceptable. The statement came a day after chief EU negotiator Michel Barnier told visiting British Brexit Secretary Dominic Raab that a key element of the plan involving Britain collecting customs duty for the EU must be changed and repeated scepticism about May's efforts to extend to the British mainland special customs arrangements which the EU is willing to offer Northern Ireland. Echoing that and noting May's commitment in March to come up with a so-called backstop wording for a withdrawal treaty to be concluded before Brexit in March, the BSG said: "The backstop remains specific to the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland and ... cannot establish the terms of the future relationship between the European Union and the United Kingdom. "It is incumbent on the UK that it no longer postpone coming forward with its own, workable and legally operative proposal for a backstop. The BSG stresses that without a credible, genuine and operational backstop, it will be impossible for the European Parliament to give its consent to the [treaty]." Without ratification of that withdrawal agreement, Britain would not have the orderly Brexit, including a status quo transition period, which has otherwise largely been agreed. Guy Verhofstadt, the former Belgian prime minister who chairs the BSG, said: "We have yet to see a legislative proposal from the UK government, despite repeated commitments made by Prime Minister May. "Any suggestion that the UK government will renege on the commitments it has already made only risk to undermine trust and sabotage negotiations."
Sky polling is showing a growing majority for a second referendum. They also show that a huge majority think that the Government are doing a bad job of the negotiations. What a surprise. However the strange thing is that 10% of those polled thought that the Government was doing a good job of the negotiations. Who are these people? They must live on some remote Scottish island, and have no internet access, no television, and no newspaper shop.
I think the most amazing thing about the referendum was that we didn't have one politician clever enough to point out the Irish border problem beforehand. With hindsight it is impossible to think that the EU wouldn't insist on a border to protect the integrity of their Single Market. Realistically there are only two places that a border could be set up. I think that the EU have been quite flexible in agreeing to the border being set up in the Irish Sea, rather than on the island of Ireland, and threatening the Peace Process. The obvious solution to the problem is for the UK to stay in the Single Market, and the Customs Union. However the UK Government have failed to find a solution to this problem in the 2 years since the referendum. Theresa May has maintained the most ridiculous negotiating position. She is adamant that we will leave both the Single Market and the Customs Union, but wishes to remain as close as possible to both. She has maintained throughout that no British Prime Minister would ever impose a hard border on the island of Ireland, or in the Irish Sea. The Irish Sea option is unacceptable to the DUP, and a fall out with them loses her majority in the House of Commons.
I find it ridiculous that she should think that staying as close as possible to the Single Market, and Customs Union is somehow honouring peoples wishes in the referendum, yet actually remaining in them wouldn't.
I always think the UK assume that the South of Ireland have no say in this....what if they decide they want a hard border ? Been a mess by this Gov from the minute they called the ref, any deal should be put to the people to vote again on since we now know what a hole the UK is heading for. If a hard brexit goes ahead i am sure this will lead to another Scottish call for independence, which could see Scotland break the Union.
One of the threats used by the British Government in the last Scottish referendum was that if they voted for Independence, they wouldn't be able to stay in the EU.
So it follows that some Scottish people voted against Independence, as they were in favour of staying in the EU, and when it came to the EU referendum Scotland voted heavily in favour of remaining.
You would therefore think that logically there is a majority in Scotland in favour of Independence as a means to stay in, or rejoin the EU.
However people rarely behave logically, and hopefully it wont come to that, as we will get another vote and the whole of the UK will stay in the EU.
As far as the Irish Border is concerned, Theresa May has painted herself into a corner, by swearing that no British Prime Minister will ever agree to a hard border on the island of Ireland, or in the Irish Sea.
However the EU will insist on a border to protect the integrity of the Single Market.
Great news, the latest economic report out today, shows that every person UK will only be £500 per year worse off if they can get the Chequers plan through. This compares very favourably with everybody being £1800 per year worse off in the case of no deal.
The U.K. is set to hold the vote on Thursday, June 23. The ballot is set to ask: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" Voters will be asked to choose one of two options: "Remain a member of the European Union" or "Leave the European Union." British and Irish citizens, as well as U.K. expats who have lived abroad for less than 15 years, will also be able to vote. No other EU citizens — except those from Malta, Cyprus and Ireland — will be eligible.
"It is a clear anomaly that those who are not British citizens should have a vote in the future of Britain," Lord Green, the founder of the campaign group Migration Watch UK, told CNBC by phone on Tuesday. "Of course we are not opposed to Commonwealth citizens who are also British citizens having a vote. But if they are not yet British or have decided not to become British it is surely wrong that they should be able to."
The latest calculations by Migration Watch UK put the total number of Commonwealth citizens potentially eligible to vote in the referendum at 1.3 million. About 341,000 Irish nationals may also qualify, they told CNBC by email on Tuesday.
I think regardless how anyone voted in the original referendum it's only right that we, the people,have the final say on the final deal.We are the ones who will have to live with the politicians choices and repercussions long after they're gone.So many lies and propaganda were spread from both sides leading up to the referendum.In reality we were making a huge decision on unknown facts and very little info to help us decide such an important vote.The current government have so far turned this into a shambles imo.The opposition aren't really doing much either.The final terms should be our choice, I've signed the petition.
Essentially having a second referendum wrt Brexit, is akin to the monty hall problem, being shown a goat behind one door, and then saying will its undemocratic to allow people a chance to change their minds.
I think regardless how anyone voted in the original referendum it's only right that we, the people,have the final say on the final deal.We are the ones who will have to live with the politicians choices and repercussions long after they're gone.So many lies and propaganda were spread from both sides leading up to the referendum.In reality we were making a huge decision on unknown facts and very little info to help us decide such an important vote.The current government have so far turned this into a shambles imo.The opposition aren't really doing much either.The final terms should be our choice, I've signed the petition.
I would agree up to a point. On the remain side I think they produced some economic forecasts related to a vote leave majority, that proved to be incorrect. Although we haven't left yet and the full implications are not yet known. All predictions show us heading for a disaster in many areas. How big the disaster is will depend on the deal we get. I think it would have been difficult to outright lie about something that we were already in.
On the leave side they told absolute lies. The ads they used were completely untrue. The NHS will be getting the money, but we will all be paying more tax to fund it. There was never, or ever will be, a real threat of us being overrun by 5 million Turks. It is impossible to think that these lies didn't affect the result.
I think there is a huge difference between getting an economic forecast wrong, and telling absolute lies. It is really difficult to stomach the fact that those that were responsible for the lies still represent us in Parliament.
The referendum itself was really poorly thought out. As far as public knowledge on the topic was concerned, it could just have easily been on nuclear fusion. In addition to the fact that many people that shouldn't have had a say, did, many people who would be directly affected by the result weren't allowed to vote. Why give Irish, and Commonwealth citizens a vote?
Yet some of the Brits living in Europe didn't qualify, and all the EU citizens working, living, and contributing to the UK economy weren't able to vote.
The opposition are pathetic on this, Jeremy Corbyn fails to show any leadership on anything.
Essentially having a second referendum wrt Brexit, is akin to the monty hall problem, being shown a goat behind one door, and then saying will its undemocratic to allow people a chance to change their minds.
As far as Brexit is concerned there are 3 goats and no car. So the deal we get will be a goat.
However a vote to choose between the deal we get, or to stay in, will produce a result that both sides will have to live with.
Comments
And getting our country back?!
The other thing is that the experts are saying that there is no majority in the House of Commons for any deal. So whatever she comes back with cant get through.
A demand will grow for a vote to accept the deal she gets, or to stay in, and may be the only way out of the mess.
Where did it go?
With hindsight it is impossible to think that the EU wouldn't insist on a border to protect the integrity of their Single Market.
Realistically there are only two places that a border could be set up. I think that the EU have been quite flexible in agreeing to the border being set up in the Irish Sea, rather than on the island of Ireland, and threatening the Peace Process.
The obvious solution to the problem is for the UK to stay in the Single Market, and the Customs Union.
However the UK Government have failed to find a solution to this problem in the 2 years since the referendum.
Theresa May has maintained the most ridiculous negotiating position. She is adamant that we will leave both the Single Market and the Customs Union, but wishes to remain as close as possible to both. She has maintained throughout that no British Prime Minister would ever impose a hard border on the island of Ireland, or in the Irish Sea.
The Irish Sea option is unacceptable to the DUP, and a fall out with them loses her majority in the House of Commons.
I find it ridiculous that she should think that staying as close as possible to the Single Market, and Customs Union is somehow honouring peoples wishes in the referendum, yet actually remaining in them wouldn't.
There is 1 part of me that says that if 52% wanted to leave the EU in total in any of the various ways, then considerably less than 50% wanted to leave the Customs Union. But we will never know, because that prize dumpling "trotters up" Cameron didn't bother to give any of the important options to the great unwashed (or any of the key facts), as well as not bothering to campaign for something that he believed in.
Why anyone votes for the Tories at the minute escapes me. Cameron put his own self-interest (keeping the 1922 Committee happy) ahead of the country he was supposedly leading. May is doing exactly the same in relation to the Irish border-Northern Ireland would remain in the Customs Union, at very least temporarily, but for her self-interest in keeping the DUP sweet.
So the whole of the UK will end up with no deal because of 10 MPs representing part of Northern Ireland, which is of itself less than 3% of the UK population. And this is democracy?
I really hope that this spells the end for this generation of Tory politicians. They disgust me.
The whole thing is full of contradictions, for example, one of the EU suggestions for the Irish border, was for Northern Ireland to remain in the Customs Union. The DUP wont have that under any circumstances, yet the people of Northern Ireland voted overwhelmingly to remain in the referendum.
The Chequers plan is not based on what is best for the country, but what she can get away with, taking into account the differing views of the Tory Party.
All the evidence that has been produced shows that we will be worse off through leaving. It is just a matter of how much worse off.
We will not only be losing trade with the EU, we will lose access to all the EU free trade deals, of which there are many, and many more are in negotiation. The Brexiteers don't mention these, nor the fact that it will take many years after we leave to redo these deals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_free_trade_agreements
The Chequers solution which puts forward a Common Rulebook solution to the Irish Border would disallow us from free trade deals elsewhere. This is the main argument from some Brexiteers for leaving in the first place. Her argument is that at some point in the future we could deviate from these rules to accommodate a free trade deal with another country, without pointing out that this would recreate the need for an Irish Border.
The Labour Party are showing no leadership in this debacle, and should be smashing the Tories in the polls. Amazingly UKIP have just had a boost in their polling. Good to see Labour trying to deselect the MPs that voted with the government the other day.
If this continues and ends up in a mess that seems likely, it will take the British public a long time to forgive the Tories, and I am not sure that Labour will get off scot free.
The only sensible outcome would be to get the deal ready, and then to vote on the deal or to stay in.
The British government has so far failed to offer a "workable" backstop plan to avoid Brexit border frictions in Ireland and must do so now if the European Parliament is to endorse a smooth transition out of the EU, lawmakers warned on Friday.
After briefings by EU negotiators and reviewing British statements, the European Parliament's Brexit Steering Group made clear that Prime Minister Theresa May's White Paper this month setting out how future EU-UK trade relations would avert customs and other disruptions on the divided island was not acceptable.
The statement came a day after chief EU negotiator Michel Barnier told visiting British Brexit Secretary Dominic Raab that a key element of the plan involving Britain collecting customs duty for the EU must be changed and repeated scepticism about May's efforts to extend to the British mainland special customs arrangements which the EU is willing to offer Northern Ireland.
Echoing that and noting May's commitment in March to come up with a so-called backstop wording for a withdrawal treaty to be concluded before Brexit in March, the BSG said: "The backstop remains specific to the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland and ... cannot establish the terms of the future relationship between the European Union and the United Kingdom.
"It is incumbent on the UK that it no longer postpone coming forward with its own, workable and legally operative proposal for a backstop. The BSG stresses that without a credible, genuine and operational backstop, it will be impossible for the European Parliament to give its consent to the [treaty]."
Without ratification of that withdrawal agreement, Britain would not have the orderly Brexit, including a status quo transition period, which has otherwise largely been agreed.
Guy Verhofstadt, the former Belgian prime minister who chairs the BSG, said: "We have yet to see a legislative proposal from the UK government, despite repeated commitments made by Prime Minister May.
"Any suggestion that the UK government will renege on the commitments it has already made only risk to undermine trust and sabotage negotiations."
https://www.change.org/p/theresa-may-mp-give-people-a-final-say-on-brexit-deal
They also show that a huge majority think that the Government are doing a bad job of the negotiations. What a surprise.
However the strange thing is that 10% of those polled thought that the Government was doing a good job of the negotiations.
Who are these people?
They must live on some remote Scottish island, and have no internet access, no television, and no newspaper shop.
Been a mess by this Gov from the minute they called the ref, any deal should be put
to the people to vote again on since we now know what a hole the UK is heading for.
If a hard brexit goes ahead i am sure this will lead to another Scottish call for independence, which could see Scotland break the Union.
So it follows that some Scottish people voted against Independence, as they were in favour of staying in the EU, and when it came to the EU referendum Scotland voted heavily in favour of remaining.
You would therefore think that logically there is a majority in Scotland in favour of Independence as a means to stay in, or rejoin the EU.
However people rarely behave logically, and hopefully it wont come to that, as we will get another vote and the whole of the UK will stay in the EU.
As far as the Irish Border is concerned, Theresa May has painted herself into a corner, by swearing that no British Prime Minister will ever agree to a hard border on the island of Ireland, or in the Irish Sea.
However the EU will insist on a border to protect the integrity of the Single Market.
A real catch 22.
The U.K. is set to hold the vote on Thursday, June 23. The ballot is set to ask: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" Voters will be asked to choose one of two options: "Remain a member of the European Union" or "Leave the European Union."
British and Irish citizens, as well as U.K. expats who have lived abroad for less than 15 years, will also be able to vote. No other EU citizens — except those from Malta, Cyprus and Ireland — will be eligible.
"It is a clear anomaly that those who are not British citizens should have a vote in the future of Britain," Lord Green, the founder of the campaign group Migration Watch UK, told CNBC by phone on Tuesday.
"Of course we are not opposed to Commonwealth citizens who are also British citizens having a vote. But if they are not yet British or have decided not to become British it is surely wrong that they should be able to."
The latest calculations by Migration Watch UK put the total number of Commonwealth citizens potentially eligible to vote in the referendum at 1.3 million. About 341,000 Irish nationals may also qualify, they told CNBC by email on Tuesday.
On the remain side I think they produced some economic forecasts related to a vote leave majority, that proved to be incorrect. Although we haven't left yet and the full implications are not yet known. All predictions show us heading for a disaster in many areas. How big the disaster is will depend on the deal we get. I think it would have been difficult to outright lie about something that we were already in.
On the leave side they told absolute lies. The ads they used were completely untrue. The NHS will be getting the money, but we will all be paying more tax to fund it. There was never, or ever will be, a real threat of us being overrun by 5 million Turks. It is impossible to think that these lies didn't affect the result.
I think there is a huge difference between getting an economic forecast wrong, and telling absolute lies. It is really difficult to stomach the fact that those that were responsible for the lies still represent us in Parliament.
The referendum itself was really poorly thought out. As far as public knowledge on the topic was concerned, it could just have easily been on nuclear fusion.
In addition to the fact that many people that shouldn't have had a say, did, many people who would be directly affected by the result weren't allowed to vote.
Why give Irish, and Commonwealth citizens a vote?
Yet some of the Brits living in Europe didn't qualify, and all the EU citizens working, living, and contributing to the UK economy weren't able to vote.
The opposition are pathetic on this, Jeremy Corbyn fails to show any leadership on anything.
It has to be a second vote.
However a vote to choose between the deal we get, or to stay in, will produce a result that both sides will have to live with.
Nobody could moan at the result of a second vote.