Hi Peter. With the Ace 9 hand contemplating whether or not you have the best hand more often than not does not even factor into it. Pot odds dictate you call any hand that you raised here. It's 11000 chips to win 33000 chips vs the range of hands that devil tear puts in and the bounty factor. You literally have the right immediate odds to call against any hand other than AA, and that's not even including the value of running the cards for a bounty. On the button in your spot here If I got dealt A2o I would be excited to shove. I would be shoving hands like K2s as well.
Take a look at what you are allowed to shove and fold at equilibrium blind on blind assuming the small blind only ever play their range as a shove or fold. It will probably blow your mind a bit:
I just won the £1500 Quickdraw tournament to scoop £320 plus £227.23 in head prizes. I needed that as it had been a while since I cashed in an MTT, although admittedly I have not been playing them particularly regularly of late.
There was a funny moment during the final four where chicknMelt and devil_tear politely reminded me that I am not in a DYM after folding this hand:
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
devil_tear
Small blind
2000.00
2000.00
19220.00
chicknMelt
Big blind
4000.00
6000.00
36180.50
Your hole cards
9
A
longjob
Fold
peter27
Raise
8000.00
14000.00
36260.00
devil_tear
All-in
19220.00
33220.00
0.00
chicknMelt
Fold
peter27
Fold
devil_tear
Muck
devil_tear
Win
20000.00
20000.00
devil_tear
Return
13220.00
0.00
33220.00
Is that such an easy call? I mean, chicknMelt suggested I should be calling with any two - and given how good he is, I'm sure he's right. I'm not sure I understand why though. I would have to put 30% of my stack into the pot, with only A9s. I know that four-handed that's a pretty large starting hand, but would devil_tear be shoving anything worse than this after I had already raised? Maybe A2-A8 given that he only has approx. 10 BB's. Would he be shoving Kx+ though? I don't think most players would, despite the small stack.
Maybe I just need to look at it with fresh eyes later. Or, maybe I have been playing too many DYM's.
Below is the (very lucky) hand that won me the tournament.
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
longjob
Small blind
3000.00
3000.00
58520.00
peter27
Big blind
6000.00
9000.00
92480.00
Your hole cards
K
2
longjob
Raise
9000.00
18000.00
49520.00
peter27
Call
6000.00
24000.00
86480.00
Flop
10
10
6
peter27
Check
longjob
Check
Turn
K
peter27
Bet
12000.00
36000.00
74480.00
longjob
Raise
24000.00
60000.00
25520.00
peter27
All-in
74480.00
134480.00
0.00
longjob
All-in
25520.00
160000.00
0.00
peter27
Unmatched bet
36960.00
123040.00
36960.00
longjob
Show
8
10
peter27
Show
K
2
River
K
peter27
Win
Full House, Kings and 10s
123040.00
160000.00
Anyone have any idea why these hands are displaying in a different format? I don't see the suits for the second one. Perhaps it's just my browser though?
Lets assume devil_tear is only shoving AT+ and 77+. I imagine its a little wider but to benefit your argument we'll use this range.
if you call, the pot will be around 44,000 and you will have had to put in around 11,000, equating to 25% of the pot. So without even considering the bounty, you need 25% equity to call.
Ah9h 33.88%
AT+, 77+ 66.12%
As you can see A9 has 33% equity, so it should be an easy call. 8% is way too much equity to pass up on, even if you think you have a significant edge and like I mentioned, we haven't included any consideration for the bounty yet, which is significant.
even if you had opened something like 56, that has 23% equity against this tight shoving range, and with the bounty considerations would still be a call.
The Quickdraw does play really shallow at the end, so the average stack size by then does kinda skew general tournament tendencies of normal paced comps.
The A9 is a call, it's not even close. Way too strong a hand to raise fold when its so little extra to call off. Plus the bounty element makes it even more of a call. If you don't want the 'decision' then you might as well just shove pre and put the pressure on. A9s is highly likely to be the best hand facing 2 random hands in the blinds.
Your comment about being happy to fold down to 5bb seems a bit linear. Granted, there are occasions where we just can't get a hand or a spot to get our short stack in, but it wouldn't be advisable to fold down to a micro stack so regularly in an MTT. Even more so due to many comps on Sky being bounty hunters and you lose all fold equity. It's ok in a DYM, but that is when you need to be adaptable and not be playing an MTT with a DYM mindset.
Well played last night.
Point taken about shoving pre being an option. However, my logic was that I was being beat by more hands than I am beating. The way I saw it, AT+ in addition to any pocket pair has me beat (so 17 hands). What am I beating? A2-A8? So 7 hands? Maybe 11 hands if you include K9-KQ. I'm sure you're right, but where's the flaw in my thought process?
I'll try to take your advice on board about being adaptable with my shoving stack size. Although, it's worth reading my next post
Someone who knows way more than me and can explain it much better than me will be along shortly probably, but it comes down to maths and equity.
Look at ranges and the figures more than clumps of specific hands. You have to call 11k to win 44k, so you only need a certain amount of equity to make it a profitable call. As an associate happily informed me, even if you know the villain had KK it's still a call with A9s, and that's one of the more extreme examples.
In this exact spot I'm not sure there are any hands you should be raise folding vs that sb stack size.
I'm still struggling with this one, but I am trying to get my head around it.
The opposition is playing under 5BB's, so I suppose they are looking to shove any two. I would need to call 11k to win 44k, so in theory, I need a minimum of 25% equity to make this a calling spot.
They are looking to shove "any two", but they shoved after my raise which can't be ignored. Am I >25% equity here? I really can't see how I could be.
I also don't know why it would be a call if I knew the villain had KK.
This one has me stumped. But, I know you're right .. I just don't know why.
Point taken about raise folding though, I do agree with that. I should have recognised the stack size of the player behind.
You answer your own bolded query above when you mention you need 25% for the immediate pot odds (although Groggy and Melt have since given much better reasoning whilst I've been in Barbados.....ahem)
A9s vs KK has about 32% equity. Get them chips in.
I'm still struggling with this one, but I am trying to get my head around it.
The opposition is playing under 5BB's, so I suppose they are looking to shove any two. I would need to call 11k to win 44k, so in theory, I need a minimum of 25% equity to make this a calling spot.
They are looking to shove "any two", but they shoved after my raise which can't be ignored. Am I >25% equity here? I really can't see how I could be.
I also don't know why it would be a call if I knew the villain had KK.
This one has me stumped. But, I know you're right .. I just don't know why.
Point taken about raise folding though, I do agree with that. I should have recognised the stack size of the player behind.
Like Hhy said, against KK specifically you have 32% equity, so is right, even without a bounty it would still be a call chip ev wise.
you can use this site to tell you your equity - you should have a play with it, its important to know roughly what your equity is in as many situations as possible. http://www.propokertools.com/simulations
The flaw in your thinking is to think about how many hands you are beating rather than the equity you have vs their range. Quite often you will have to get your chips in knowing it is likely you are behind most of the time because the pot odds dictate it.
well done on your progress so far by the way, you are obviously making a lot of good decisions already.
I'm still struggling with this one, but I am trying to get my head around it.
The opposition is playing under 5BB's, so I suppose they are looking to shove any two. I would need to call 11k to win 44k, so in theory, I need a minimum of 25% equity to make this a calling spot.
They are looking to shove "any two", but they shoved after my raise which can't be ignored. Am I >25% equity here? I really can't see how I could be.
I also don't know why it would be a call if I knew the villain had KK.
This one has me stumped. But, I know you're right .. I just don't know why.
Point taken about raise folding though, I do agree with that. I should have recognised the stack size of the player behind.
Like Hhy said, against KK specifically you have 32% equity, so is right, even without a bounty it would still be a call chip ev wise.
you can use this site to tell you your equity - you should have a play with it, its important to know roughly what your equity is in as many situations as possible. http://www.propokertools.com/simulations
The flaw in your thinking is to think about how many hands you are beating rather than the equity you have vs their range. Quite often you will have to get your chips in knowing it is likely you are behind most of the time because the pot odds dictate it.
well done on your progress so far by the way, you are obviously making a lot of good decisions already.
I don't agree that my mistake was not thinking in terms of equity, because it's something I was considering. However, I clearly have a problem when it comes to knowing exactly how much equity I have. I will work on this, thanks to everyone for their detailed responses.
Thanks to chicknMelt for the nice compliment too. Coming from a player as strong as yourself, that means a lot
Started really strong, was one of the early chip leaders in fact. I had a problem in the middle stages though where strangely the guy to my left kept shoving with 150K when the BB was 8k - because of this, I didn't really feel I could raise any hands and really tightened up my range. This went on for several hours, and eventually the table broke.
Unfortunately, at the new table, the same player was moved to my right! At that point, I was in the habit of playing too tight and never really corrected that. Eventually I was in the position where I was getting shallow and had to shove. Got it in with AJ against 8's. 8 on the flop, and that was the end of me.
I am very happy that at no point was I bullied into a particular decision, that's the first time that has happened in a live event I caused all sorts of commotion at one point where the way I placed the chips in was deemed illegal. They called it a "strimming" bet I think? Obviously it wasn't intentional and I now know to avoid doing that in the future. The other players were fairly understanding though.
I made a real connection with one player on the other side of the table, and when I stated that this was only my sixth live tournament, he gave me a quizzical look and stated that I "certainly don't play that way", which was a satisfying moment for me
It strikes me that in live poker people tend to play much looser than online, and I think I need to open my range up a bit more in the middle/late stages. I know general logic dictates that you do the opposite to the table, but the table were basically raising/shoving every hand and I was effectively just blinding out for a few hours. I'm not saying I will play loose, but looser than yesterday.
"....I caused all sorts of commotion at one point where the way I placed the chips in was deemed illegal. They called it a "strimming" bet I think? Obviously it wasn't intentional and I now know to avoid doing that in the future. The other players were fairly understanding though....."
It's a "string bet", which is not possible Online.
A “string bet” is an illegal type of bet in live poker. It refers to a bet or raise in which the player does not put all his or her desired amount of chips into the pot in one motion, and does so, instead, in multiple motions.
It was originally a good rule, but it's much abused now, & I'm not sure I can ever recall seeing a genuine "string bet", but other players/sheep always jump on it like 5 year old kids "string bet, string bet".
Just need to be careful how you put your chips in the pot - always use a single motion. Alternatively - & MUCH better - verbalise your bet before you make it, which saves any argument from the angle-shooters. (In most cases, those who claim"string bet" are not even in the pot. Mostly hen-pecked husbands I always assume).
Started really strong, was one of the early chip leaders in fact. I had a problem in the middle stages though where strangely the guy to my left kept shoving with 150K when the BB was 8k - because of this, I didn't really feel I could raise any hands and really tightened up my range. This went on for several hours, and eventually the table broke.
Unfortunately, at the new table, the same player was moved to my right! At that point, I was in the habit of playing too tight and never really corrected that. Eventually I was in the position where I was getting shallow and had to shove. Got it in with AJ against 8's. 8 on the flop, and that was the end of me.
I am very happy that at no point was I bullied into a particular decision, that's the first time that has happened in a live event I caused all sorts of commotion at one point where the way I placed the chips in was deemed illegal. They called it a "strimming" bet I think? Obviously it wasn't intentional and I now know to avoid doing that in the future. The other players were fairly understanding though.
I made a real connection with one player on the other side of the table, and when I stated that this was only my sixth live tournament, he gave me a quizzical look and stated that I "certainly don't play that way", which was a satisfying moment for me
It strikes me that in live poker people tend to play much looser than online, and I think I need to open my range up a bit more in the middle/late stages. I know general logic dictates that you do the opposite to the table, but the table were basically raising/shoving every hand and I was effectively just blinding out for a few hours. I'm not saying I will play loose, but looser than yesterday.
Finished 20th, top 14 cashed.
Brilliantly written, you explain yourself and thoughts concisely.
Interesting hand from the 7 @ 7 Bounty Hunter today.
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
TURN_IT_IN
Small blind
50.00
50.00
2390.00
superyank
Big blind
100.00
150.00
4770.00
Your hole cards
Q
8
u_owe_me
Call
100.00
250.00
2440.00
BRADSHAW34
Fold
glassman60
Call
100.00
350.00
7507.50
peter27
Call
100.00
450.00
7157.50
TURN_IT_IN
Call
50.00
500.00
2340.00
superyank
Check
Flop
J
4
A
TURN_IT_IN
Bet
100.00
600.00
2240.00
superyank
Fold
u_owe_me
Call
100.00
700.00
2340.00
glassman60
Fold
peter27
Call
100.00
800.00
7057.50
Turn
5
TURN_IT_IN
Bet
100.00
900.00
2140.00
u_owe_me
Raise
600.00
1500.00
1740.00
peter27
Call
600.00
2100.00
6457.50
TURN_IT_IN
Fold
River
10
u_owe_me
All-in
1740.00
3840.00
0.00
peter27
Fold
u_owe_me
Muck
u_owe_me
Win
2100.00
2100.00
u_owe_me
Return
1740.00
0.00
3840.00
Considered a raise pre-flop from the button, but my logic was that if I do hit that hand in a big way (straight or flush), I don't really mind many players in the pot as I'm nearly always ahead - hence the flat call.
Thought about a fold on the flop, but with two backdoor draws at a price of 7/1, I was happy to proceed. Maybe this is a mistake. However, with my relative stack size and the run of luck I was on at the time, a call felt like the most comfortable decision to make.
Considered a shove on the turn, especially given that this was a bounty hunter. Decided against it, didn't want to stake my tournament life on nine outs. Opted just to call.
River was an easy fold of course.
Very interested to know if you guys would have played this any differently?
Not sure why you want to play non nutted hands, that don't flop great passively multi way.
Bit confused by this comment, wouldn't that mean you only play AA? Maybe I don't have the right definition of "nutted".
I was in position, and I was taking down a number of pots due to my aggressive post-flop play at the time, so that was the thinking. Obviously the ace made me slow down a bit though.
Maybe nutted is the wrong term but I mean hands where we are drawing to the nuts. Hands like suited aces seem a lot better to play in this passive manner. Suited connectors to then play aggro post flop on certain flops. Small pairs to set mine. Q8 just seems too weak to play like this and if you are doing this and calling with backdoor draws on the flop you are burning through chips. Playing 3 gappers for straight potential doesn't seem great.
Maybe nutted is the wrong term but I mean hands where we are drawing to the nuts. Hands like suited aces seem a lot better to play in this passive manner. Suited connectors to then play aggro post flop on certain flops. Small pairs to set mine. Q8 just seems too weak to play like this and if you are doing this and calling with backdoor draws on the flop you are burning through chips. Playing 3 gappers for straight potential doesn't seem great.
Point taken, and that wouldn't be "ordinary" play for me. I was playing a particularly wide range at the time just due to how the table was playing.
Did NOT go to plan at all, knocked out in level two.
Blinds were 300/600, UTG limped. I raised to 2000 with AKo from CO. BTN called, UTG called.
QT9 rainbow flop.
I raised 2500, BTN called, UTG folded.
Q on turn.
I raised 5000, BTN raises to 25k, I shove, he calls. He had the full house (QT).
I knew the full house was possible after the 25k raise, but I had a mental note that he was quite a weak player so felt like the shove was justified at the time. In hindsight, maybe I should have got off that.
One of my friends summed up the trip perfectly and succinctly: "savage".
Considered a re-buy, especially seeing as Leicester-Nottingham is not a short journey, however I figured I would come play online as it should be more profitable for me. That didn't work out .. have been getting very unlucky. Got money in with pocket aces twice, and lost twice. Meh, it happens.
Want to give a shout out to @TimmyRaRa & @johnmonty who both complimented my play in a £55 DYM earlier. Made my day!
Be good to know stacks. Bit confused when you say the player is weak and they make an extremely strong raise and you then shove. You have shown a fairly strong line and then been raised, what hands do you think they are raise folding? Do you think they will raise fold AQ/KJ for example?
Agree with last 2 comments. This wasn't a min reraise, which might be looking for info. It was a raise of more than the size of the pot. If the starting stack was 100k, it would almost certainly be committing himself to call any shove by you.
You mentioned in a previous post that someone kept shoving for 20-30 bigs. Some people do this with hands like JJ/QQ/AK because they are difficult to play post-flop.
You need to be doing one of 2 things in future. Ideally, be able to fold to that 25k reraise. Failing that, shove pre-flop. Anything else is not "savage", it is setting fire to money.
@Essexphil Surely you cant be suggesting shoving pre this deep?
Assuming the HH is correct we just need to think more post flop. What hands are we playing like we have? Not sure what hands we bet flop and turn with. Then when we take this strong line and get a raise we have our answer of what to do.
Likely that raise/c-bet/fold is the optimal line. Only point I was making that it would be better to shove pre than to get it in all the time on flop or turn even when we miss.
Comments
Take a look at what you are allowed to shove and fold at equilibrium blind on blind assuming the small blind only ever play their range as a shove or fold. It will probably blow your mind a bit:
https://www.holdemresources.net/hune
if you call, the pot will be around 44,000 and you will have had to put in around 11,000, equating to 25% of the pot. So without even considering the bounty, you need 25% equity to call.
Ah9h
33.88%
AT+, 77+
66.12%
As you can see A9 has 33% equity, so it should be an easy call. 8% is way too much equity to pass up on, even if you think you have a significant edge and like I mentioned, we haven't included any consideration for the bounty yet, which is significant.
even if you had opened something like 56, that has 23% equity against this tight shoving range, and with the bounty considerations would still be a call.
A9s vs KK has about 32% equity. Get them chips in.
Like Hhy said, against KK specifically you have 32% equity, so is right, even without a bounty it would still be a call chip ev wise.
you can use this site to tell you your equity - you should have a play with it, its important to know roughly what your equity is in as many situations as possible.
http://www.propokertools.com/simulations
The flaw in your thinking is to think about how many hands you are beating rather than the equity you have vs their range. Quite often you will have to get your chips in knowing it is likely you are behind most of the time because the pot odds dictate it.
well done on your progress so far by the way, you are obviously making a lot of good decisions already.
Thanks to chicknMelt for the nice compliment too. Coming from a player as strong as yourself, that means a lot
Started really strong, was one of the early chip leaders in fact. I had a problem in the middle stages though where strangely the guy to my left kept shoving with 150K when the BB was 8k - because of this, I didn't really feel I could raise any hands and really tightened up my range. This went on for several hours, and eventually the table broke.
Unfortunately, at the new table, the same player was moved to my right! At that point, I was in the habit of playing too tight and never really corrected that. Eventually I was in the position where I was getting shallow and had to shove. Got it in with AJ against 8's. 8 on the flop, and that was the end of me.
I am very happy that at no point was I bullied into a particular decision, that's the first time that has happened in a live event
I made a real connection with one player on the other side of the table, and when I stated that this was only my sixth live tournament, he gave me a quizzical look and stated that I "certainly don't play that way", which was a satisfying moment for me
It strikes me that in live poker people tend to play much looser than online, and I think I need to open my range up a bit more in the middle/late stages. I know general logic dictates that you do the opposite to the table, but the table were basically raising/shoving every hand and I was effectively just blinding out for a few hours. I'm not saying I will play loose, but looser than yesterday.
Finished 20th, top 14 cashed.
"....I caused all sorts of commotion at one point where the way I placed the chips in was deemed illegal. They called it a "strimming" bet I think? Obviously it wasn't intentional and I now know to avoid doing that in the future. The other players were fairly understanding though....."
It's a "string bet", which is not possible Online.
A “string bet” is an illegal type of bet in live poker. It refers to a bet or raise in which the player does not put all his or her desired amount of chips into the pot in one motion, and does so, instead, in multiple motions.
It was originally a good rule, but it's much abused now, & I'm not sure I can ever recall seeing a genuine "string bet", but other players/sheep always jump on it like 5 year old kids "string bet, string bet".
Just need to be careful how you put your chips in the pot - always use a single motion. Alternatively - & MUCH better - verbalise your bet before you make it, which saves any argument from the angle-shooters. (In most cases, those who claim"string bet" are not even in the pot. Mostly hen-pecked husbands I always assume).
Thought about a fold on the flop, but with two backdoor draws at a price of 7/1, I was happy to proceed. Maybe this is a mistake. However, with my relative stack size and the run of luck I was on at the time, a call felt like the most comfortable decision to make.
Considered a shove on the turn, especially given that this was a bounty hunter. Decided against it, didn't want to stake my tournament life on nine outs. Opted just to call.
River was an easy fold of course.
Very interested to know if you guys would have played this any differently?
I was in position, and I was taking down a number of pots due to my aggressive post-flop play at the time, so that was the thinking. Obviously the ace made me slow down a bit though.
Did NOT go to plan at all, knocked out in level two.
Blinds were 300/600, UTG limped. I raised to 2000 with AKo from CO. BTN called, UTG called.
QT9 rainbow flop.
I raised 2500, BTN called, UTG folded.
Q on turn.
I raised 5000, BTN raises to 25k, I shove, he calls. He had the full house (QT).
I knew the full house was possible after the 25k raise, but I had a mental note that he was quite a weak player so felt like the shove was justified at the time. In hindsight, maybe I should have got off that.
One of my friends summed up the trip perfectly and succinctly: "savage".
Considered a re-buy, especially seeing as Leicester-Nottingham is not a short journey, however I figured I would come play online as it should be more profitable for me. That didn't work out .. have been getting very unlucky. Got money in with pocket aces twice, and lost twice. Meh, it happens.
Want to give a shout out to @TimmyRaRa & @johnmonty who both complimented my play in a £55 DYM earlier. Made my day!
You mentioned in a previous post that someone kept shoving for 20-30 bigs. Some people do this with hands like JJ/QQ/AK because they are difficult to play post-flop.
You need to be doing one of 2 things in future. Ideally, be able to fold to that 25k reraise. Failing that, shove pre-flop. Anything else is not "savage", it is setting fire to money.
Surely you cant be suggesting shoving pre this deep?
Assuming the HH is correct we just need to think more post flop. What hands are we playing like we have? Not sure what hands we bet flop and turn with. Then when we take this strong line and get a raise we have our answer of what to do.
Likely that raise/c-bet/fold is the optimal line. Only point I was making that it would be better to shove pre than to get it in all the time on flop or turn even when we miss.