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Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.

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Comments

  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited August 2010
    NH talon, terrible play by opponent me thinks but then they were very shortstack

    thats why people should buy in full in any poker game
  • TalonTalon Member Posts: 1,621
    edited August 2010
      Just thought i would put this hand up as a warning to all players about starting hands and why not to get married to big PP. First of all i know it was a loose call by me preflop but i had a good read on the opponent.He was overrating pocket pairs and playing in a very Holdem way so i knew that i could take down his entire stack or only lose the preflop raise.Would be interesting to get other peoples thoughts on this hand.Criticism gladly accepted.
  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited August 2010
    Pre, i wouldn't have called but as you had a read on the opponent and 4 cards not a bad call

    got very lucky with flop and did right betting out, you played fine other then pre imo but then again with your read cant really fault that too bad. Other person definately doesn't know the difference between PLO and NLH was good to see you back on the tables mate
  • DarntootinDarntootin Member Posts: 1,521
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.:
     Hi Mr Darntootin and welcome to the thread.   Unfortunately i am unable to recommend any books to you at all on the subject of omaha due to the fact that i have never read one on the subject being totally self taught.    As far as playing PLO on the various structures, STT MTT and cash. I will always err on the side of cash. PLO is a game of flops and streets and therefore in my opinion does not tranfer well into any fast blind structure where preflop aggro becomes paramount.With cash you can much easier make correct calls with the odds chasing down the streets.As long as you make sure you sit down with a full pull up you can give yourself full licence to play every hand properly.   If there is anything you want to know feel free to ask either on this thread or if you find me on a table, as anyone will tell you i am always willing to help. My desire is to increase the knowledge,ability and enjoyment of any player in this wonderful variant of the game.
    Posted by Talon
    Thanks anyway Talon. Like you I am self taught but was wanting to read up a bit on the game to help my cash play. Really enjoying your analysis of the hands posted here as they are very detailed and seem to make a lot of sense. I look forward to your help in the future (if I ever get around to learning how to post hands).
  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited August 2010
    Right last hand of my 15 min sesh just now did i play it ok? pre- i realise i have commited alot but mainly due to against wba, other person who was big stack has been showing very loose calls and alot of two pairs so think this is a good spot here. with the flop standard going all in although was thinking best way to get chips and realised could easily get a call from a diamond flush draw

    funny thing i did actually say before the hand this was my last hand glad it worked out :P
    wba157 Small blind  £0.02 £0.02 £1.76
    tinman1958 Big blind  £0.04 £0.06 £3.75
      Your hole cards
    • A
    • A
    • 9
    • K
         
    YOUNG_GUN Raise  £0.14 £0.20 £5.57
    BonnyBonz Call  £0.14 £0.34 £5.01
    classasa Call  £0.14 £0.48 £15.22
    wba157 Raise  £0.52 £1.00 £1.24
    tinman1958 Fold     
    YOUNG_GUN Raise  £1.60 £2.60 £3.97
    BonnyBonz Fold     
    classasa Call  £1.60 £4.20 £13.62
    wba157 Call  £1.20 £5.40 £0.04
    Flop
       
    • 4
    • 2
    • A
         
    wba157 All-in  £0.04 £5.44 £0.00
    YOUNG_GUN All-in  £3.97 £9.41 £0.00
    classasa Call  £3.97 £13.38 £9.65
    wba157 Show
    • 2
    • 8
    • 2
    • 8
       
    YOUNG_GUN Show
    • A
    • A
    • 9
    • K
       
    classasa Show
    • 4
    • 5
    • 8
    • 7
       
    Turn
       
    • 4
         
    River
       
    • 5
         
    YOUNG_GUN Win Full House, Aces and 4s £12.68  £12.68
  • TalonTalon Member Posts: 1,621
    edited August 2010
      Preflop against 2 very loose and aggressive players i still do not the 4-bet but understand your reasoning.

      On that flop the only callers you should get to your correct all-in move are under sets made straight and nut flush draw so the call with second pair and a gutshot surprises me.Or at least it would of if i hadnt played against the same opponent earlier and saw they were very willing to make very big and suspect calls.

       The main thing to remember about your play in this hand is your other cards. Not only did you have top set but also the nut flush blocker.

      So i hated it preflop but perfect on the flop because even if behind to the straight you had outs.Very nice to be called by one player on a 1 outer and the other on a 4 outer. NIce result.
  • TalonTalon Member Posts: 1,621
    edited August 2010
    bump. Come on guys more input please
  • SHANXTASHANXTA Member Posts: 1,507
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.:
    Right last hand of my 15 min sesh just now did i play it ok? pre- i realise i have commited alot but mainly due to against wba, other person who was big stack has been showing very loose calls and alot of two pairs so think this is a good spot here. with the flop standard going all in although was thinking best way to get chips and realised could easily get a call from a diamond flush draw funny thing i did actually say before the hand this was my last hand glad it worked out :P wba157 Small blind   £0.02 £0.02 £1.76 tinman1958 Big blind   £0.04 £0.06 £3.75   Your hole cards A A 9 K       YOUNG_GUN Raise   £0.14 £0.20 £5.57 BonnyBonz Call   £0.14 £0.34 £5.01 classasa Call   £0.14 £0.48 £15.22 wba157 Raise   £0.52 £1.00 £1.24 tinman1958 Fold         YOUNG_GUN Raise   £1.60 £2.60 £3.97 BonnyBonz Fold         classasa Call   £1.60 £4.20 £13.62 wba157 Call   £1.20 £5.40 £0.04 Flop     4 2 A       wba157 All-in   £0.04 £5.44 £0.00 YOUNG_GUN All-in   £3.97 £9.41 £0.00 classasa Call   £3.97 £13.38 £9.65 wba157 Show 2 8 2 8       YOUNG_GUN Show A A 9 K       classasa Show 4 5 8 7       Turn     4       River     5       YOUNG_GUN Win Full House, Aces and 4s £12.68   £12.68
    Posted by YOUNG_GUN
    standard 4bet pre
  • TalonTalon Member Posts: 1,621
    edited August 2010
     There is nothing even remotely standard about a 4-bet preflop.
  • SHANXTASHANXTA Member Posts: 1,507
    edited August 2010
    there is in this spot.

    from my limited knowledge of the game i'm pretty certain it's the right move, and i'm pretty certain the majority of omaha players would agree with me
  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited August 2010
    Shanxta alot of omaha is about the post flop play, pre flop unless you have moster draws there is no point in 4 betting. even with aces/kings unless you have good draws, if someone else 4 bets you can call with hands but i wouldnt be raising with them if that makes sense. I have been taught by talon so he would give you a better explanation but raising pre is a holdem strategy and is not necessary in omaha
  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited August 2010

    If I think I can get most/all of the money in pre flop, with AA xx - I will - I read only one bit of 1 book about omaha, it was hellmuths, and this is what he said...

    So in multi way pots, if I get 3 bet, especially if it's a shorter stack, i'll be 4 betting as much as poss to get it heads up, and in the middle.

    AAxx is a fave over any other non AA hand right?
  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.:
    If I think I can get most/all of the money in pre flop, with AA xx - I will - I read only one bit of 1 book about omaha, it was hellmuths, and this is what he said... So in multi way pots, if I get 3 bet, especially if it's a shorter stack, i'll be 4 betting as much as poss to get it heads up, and in the middle. AAxx is a fave over any other non AA hand right?
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    Only slight and with 4 hands each if you haven't got good draws and your opponent has a few then likely you will lose. Talon will explain it better but thats not the way to play omaha, by all means can raise it up to isolate but then depends on how your opponent plays whether you want all the chips in pre or not. if they play good draws only then you dont want to go all in pre as they will have more outs, where as if your up against someone with say 88jj and will commit cos they have two pairs then all day long then by all means get as much in pre as possible.

    Im probably waffling on here, so apologise if it doesn't make sense. i know what i mean thats the main thing :P
  • mag70mag70 Member Posts: 20
    edited August 2010
    My first contribution to this great thread.

    Scenario is as follows: I'm UTG and choose to limp my hand with the knowledge that B, who pretty much always raises pre-flop, would also do it this time. I would then smooth call the raise to keep a managable pot pre-flop. How wrong I was..... After another round of re-raising, all-in calls are made. For me it would be £6.50 to call the first two all ins and it would have been a no-brainer with the pot odds it gave.

    However, B, who remember is a very aggressive player and one I had a good read on, then shove all in, giving me considerably worse pot odds. I was pretty much certain that I was way in front of BB with my cards.

    The end result was very nice, but would you have made the call?

    `
    Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance
    A Small blind   £0.10 £0.10 £14.40
    B Big blind   £0.20 £0.30 £35.97
      Your hole cards
    • 8
    • 10
    • A
    • A
         
    mag70 Call   £0.20 £0.50 £32.48
    C Fold        
    D Fold        
    E Call   £0.20 £0.70 £10.85
    A Call   £0.10 £0.80 £14.30
    B Raise   £0.80 £1.60 £35.17
    mag70 Call   £0.80 £2.40 £31.68
    E Call   £0.80 £3.20 £10.05
    A Raise   £4.30 £7.50 £10.00
    B Call   £3.50 £11.00 £31.67
    mag70 Call   £3.50 £14.50 £28.18
    E All-in   £10.05 £24.55 £0.00
    A All-in   £10.00 £34.55 £0.00
    B All-in   £31.67 £66.22 £0.00
    mag70 All-in   £28.18 £94.40 £0.00
    B Unmatched bet   £3.49 £90.91 £3.49
    A Show
    • A
    • 10
    • 5
    • 5
         
    B Show
    • K
    • 4
    • 5
    • 4
         
    mag70 Show
    • 8
    • 10
    • A
    • A
         
    E Show
    • Q
    • K
    • K
    • J
         
    Flop
       
    • 6
    • 9
    • 6
         
    Turn
       
    • 2
         
    River
       
    • 8
         
    mag70 Win Two Pairs, Aces and 6s £90.01   £90.01




  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited August 2010

    If we're favourite when the money goes in, it doesn't matter how many times we lose, we're always gonna win more often than not.
  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited August 2010
    only slight though jj..

    NH mag, played it fine in what you planned to do. i bet one of those players was bobby p? im guessing player A

    Talon input...
  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited August 2010
    lol ok so it's only a slightly profitable play then, but the key word there is profitable....

    And especially as a beginner.

    If I play omaha against a good experienced player like talon, and u offer me the chance to get my mony in v him pre flop as a 55/45 favourite, i will bite your hand off.
  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited August 2010
    It depends on who your playing and what ranges you put them on tbf

    Your right if i can get in slight fave against talon i would also bite your hand off lol

    As for aces at best your going to be 60/40 fave as opposed to holdem your can be up to 80/20, key thing is alot of omaha is post flop and beginners tend to overcommite with not the strongest of hands as in this game you want to be getting in 70/30 if you can at least because there are so many draws
  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited August 2010
    It doesnt matter what range I put my opponent on....

    You give me AA xx, and say you are gonna call my all in pre flop.....

    I will then let you chose 4 cards of your choice, but can only use 1 of the 2 remaining aces.

    I will take you up on this every single time coz I know Im guarenteed to be a favourite and win long term.

    I aint good enough to wait, and outplay my opponents to make sure im an 80-20 fave when the money goes in. Maybe talon is...he definitely is at nl4.

    .......But give me aces and he chance to get it AIPF heads up and Im a happy guy.

    If u get it in pre with aces, its a winnin play, fact. If you go to a flop with aces, ur gonna hate so many flops, that ur just gonna get pushed off the hand and lose pots u shud have won. - Also, the times u play aces strongly pre flop and make oponents fold, means you sweep up money to add to the profit u already make from winning more than 50% of all ins.
  • oynutteroynutter Member Posts: 4,773
    edited August 2010
    Hi Talon, imo omaha is a floppin mental game for mad gamblers--- Am I wrong?
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