Hi Colin (talon) have played 2 sessions of cash 2p/4p PLO came away in profit both times tho i never raised pre or post flop could you have a look at this hand & tell me if i should have raised on flop & if so by how much? also what is standard raise pre-flop with a good starting hand? Cheers Michael
Hi again Michael. Again you have entered the pot with a marginal hand but i dont mind that too much. Your hand has a glaring weakness and that is the presence of the third heart which decreases your chance of hitting your flush draw by 11% due to having one of your outs in your hand and dead.
On the flop you have top 2 and the second nut flush draw on a very wet flop with a lot of draws available.For me i would be betting out and with a pot size bet.This is partly to find out where you are and also to build up the pot for if you hit your draw.
The turn is a blank unlesssomeone is sat there with TT but it improves your handand increases your outs but it also brings in another possible draw with JQ.Your bet here is ridiculous.NEVER EVER MIN BET unless you are doing it to induce a raise which is almost never the case.Again i would be going with a pot bet here to get rid of any remaining marginal draws.
The river is scary as it brings in a lot of draws and this combined with the fact that you did not bet out means this draw is liable to have hit so you were right to check but if you had been pot building then a value bet would need to go out here.
As far as preflop raising is concerned i would wholeheartedly recommend raising when you have a top starting hand to get rid of the limp with any 4 card merchants.All preflop raises should be to the maximum allowable which is normally 3-4 BB.Do not fall into the trap though of auto c-betting because this is a good way of winning small pots and losing big ones.So say you raise with AAKK ds(the best starting hand) and the flop comes down 5 6 7 with 2 of a suit you dont have then your best option here is to check with the thinking of folding to a big bet because you are almost certainly behind and possibly drawing very thin indeed.
JJ as you know HU is a different monster in any discipline with much weaker hands usually winning but it is still not advisable to play weak holdings or get attached to marginal hands.
On the notion of preflop action.Remember this is a pot limit game and therfore the pots need to be built up so when on the button you should be folding about 10-15% of the time and raising the rest, under no circumstance should you be limping because you do not want to hit a monster and end up just stealing the BB.
TPTK is still a very weak holding in omaha because of the high proportion of 2 pair holdings available.On the flop it may be fine to bet with the option of hitting 2 pair/trips on a later street but should be played with caution.Pot control is an important skill and is easiest to do from the SB/button where you have the option to check/call with big draws.Check raising is only recommended when you have good reads on your opponent and know for a fact that they will bet otherwise you could find yourself with an absolute monster hand/draw and playing a small pot because they have not bet.It is always preferable to bet rather than set up a check raise.
Hi again Michael. Again you have entered the pot with a marginal hand but i dont mind that too much. Your hand has a glaring weakness and that is the presence of the third heart which decreases your chance of hitting your flush draw by 11% due to having one of your outs in your hand and dead. On the flop you have top 2 and the second nut flush draw on a very wet flop with a lot of draws available.For me i would be betting out and with a pot size bet.This is partly to find out where you are and also to build up the pot for if you hit your draw. The turn is a blank unlesssomeone is sat there with TT but it improves your handand increases your outs but it also brings in another possible draw with JQ.Your bet here is ridiculous.NEVER EVER MIN BET unless you are doing it to induce a raise which is almost never the case.Again i would be going with a pot bet here to get rid of any remaining marginal draws. The river is scary as it brings in a lot of draws and this combined with the fact that you did not bet out means this draw is liable to have hit so you were right to check but if you had been pot building then a value bet would need to go out here. As far as preflop raising is concerned i would wholeheartedly recommend raising when you have a top starting hand to get rid of the limp with any 4 card merchants.All preflop raises should be to the maximum allowable which is normally 3-4 BB.Do not fall into the trap though of auto c-betting because this is a good way of winning small pots and losing big ones.So say you raise with AAKK ds(the best starting hand) and the flop comes down 5 6 7 with 2 of a suit you dont have then your best option here is to check with the thinking of folding to a big bet because you are almost certainly behind and possibly drawing very thin indeed. Posted by Talon
Cheers Colin have highlighted what i will never do again is it okay if i post hands from time to time for your advice m8
BUMP. This thread is gold for all Omaha newbies. And I can personally vouch that Talon (Colin) is more than happy to impart his wisdom. Ask, and ye shall receive! Posted by RICHORFORD
OK! I'll go first. Which team did you pick & why? That Q is for Talon & not Rich! pad
What is the standard pre flop raise size with prem hands, do we raise pot ?
are we potting rarther than 3/4 pot bets in NLHE
could you expand, can we ever price oppo's out in PLO or are we just extracting value with no improvers If we have improvers to the nutz, we then bet less ?
Ok firstly preflop raising. There is no standard as such but the need to understand the purpose of the bet. Preflop you are looking to get rid of the any4 brigade and hopefully take position for post flop play. Also the raise is to make the pot more desirable for winning but without committing yourself to the pot. Unless we are dealing with latter stage tourny play or shortstack play then we do not want to commit too large a proportion of our stack before seeing a flop.
As to bet sizing this is an issue that raises debate. When playing down the streets if you have a massive hand or a massive draw then you want to be betting out to build up the pot and preferably take it to HU play(which is easier to control and know your situation). So 3 or 4 way i would definately be potting to het rid of the weaker draws and marginal holdings. I tend to always favour pot on the flop(especially if in position) because you can then use the turn to either crank it up again or slow down for pot control.
As to pricing out your opponents. Some people will call very light and therefore can never be priced out but to talk about the 2 major scenarios on the flop then the answer is always no.
As an example top set vs NFD or topset vs OESD. In both of these situations your opponent would be around the 2 to 1 mark to win the pot on the flop. The maximum you can bet is pot which automatically gives odds of 2 to 1 to any potential callers.
As far as improvers are concerned what we are truely looking for on any given flop is the nuts plus extensions plus redraws.An example of this would be As Qs Jd Th with the flop coming down 789 with 2 spades. Here we have the nut straight with extensions to a bigger straight and redraws to the nut flush.
Bet sizing is always a difficult subject in PLO due to the fact that as compared to NLHE where you can get paid on all streets in PLO you tend to only get paid on the flop and turn and when their draws miss on the river they fold to your value bet. The best advice i can give is always bet big on made hand or big draw to extract as much value as you can and remember that if you take the pot down at this point then outdraws cant happen.
I'm liking my draws post-flop here, when I pick up more on turn I am happy to get it in even though I know I'm behind if he calls. Bad result but correct play with number of outs?
The main difficulty people find when moving to omaha is the need to play closer to the nuts. This hand is a prime example of this.
Preflop:like the raise enough to build the pot up but not enough to commit yoursefl. Flop. This flop is not as good for you as you would think. When you consider hands with 789x are well within the preflop calling range then you are only looking at the 2 for the nuts so effectively you have a gutshot. Turn: Again this card is not as good as you would think. You can almost forget about the flush or straight draw here because a lot of the cards that make the draw complete also fill up houses. So really here you are playing to hit your 2 outer with your aces.
It is ok in NLHE to chase these big flush and straight draws on a paired board but in omaha it is just an easy way to throw money away.
For me the flop would be either a chack or smaller bet. The turn would be check/call a small bet or check /fold. Chasing draws is the right thing to do but you really need to keep it closer to the nuts. Also use your position as a weapon. In this hand your opponent was OOP against you which gave you the chance to use pot control on the turn.
Just a few thoughts there, hope some of it is of some use.
Hi, question for PLO jedis... on a table where multiple opponenets are seeing every flop, broadway hands hold less 'freeroll big-play' stacking potential... especially in a cash game where rake killd you when broadway only splits & is not outdrawn by set/2-pair boating up... therefore broadway wrap hands that look so pretty become 'win small, lose big' hands to not get giddy with preflop espeially, eg. KKQ/Jx, KQJ10. AKJQ - last one especially limited - agree ??
Comments
Hi Colin (talon) have played 2 sessions of cash 2p/4p PLO came away in profit both times tho i never raised pre or post flop could you have a look at this hand & tell me if i should have raised on flop & if so by how much? also what is standard raise pre-flop with a good starting hand? Cheers Michael
Ty colin great advice as always ,
no probs Michael .
On the flop you have top 2 and the second nut flush draw on a very wet flop with a lot of draws available.For me i would be betting out and with a pot size bet.This is partly to find out where you are and also to build up the pot for if you hit your draw.
The turn is a blank unlesssomeone is sat there with TT but it improves your handand increases your outs but it also brings in another possible draw with JQ.Your bet here is ridiculous.NEVER EVER MIN BET unless you are doing it to induce a raise which is almost never the case.Again i would be going with a pot bet here to get rid of any remaining marginal draws.
The river is scary as it brings in a lot of draws and this combined with the fact that you did not bet out means this draw is liable to have hit so you were right to check but if you had been pot building then a value bet would need to go out here.
As far as preflop raising is concerned i would wholeheartedly recommend raising when you have a top starting hand to get rid of the limp with any 4 card merchants.All preflop raises should be to the maximum allowable which is normally 3-4 BB.Do not fall into the trap though of auto c-betting because this is a good way of winning small pots and losing big ones.So say you raise with AAKK ds(the best starting hand) and the flop comes down 5 6 7 with 2 of a suit you dont have then your best option here is to check with the thinking of folding to a big bet because you are almost certainly behind and possibly drawing very thin indeed.
On the notion of preflop action.Remember this is a pot limit game and therfore the pots need to be built up so when on the button you should be folding about 10-15% of the time and raising the rest, under no circumstance should you be limping because you do not want to hit a monster and end up just stealing the BB.
TPTK is still a very weak holding in omaha because of the high proportion of 2 pair holdings available.On the flop it may be fine to bet with the option of hitting 2 pair/trips on a later street but should be played with caution.Pot control is an important skill and is easiest to do from the SB/button where you have the option to check/call with big draws.Check raising is only recommended when you have good reads on your opponent and know for a fact that they will bet otherwise you could find yourself with an absolute monster hand/draw and playing a small pot because they have not bet.It is always preferable to bet rather than set up a check raise.
Hope some of this is of use JJ.
Cheers m8 am going practice what you've told me for now will let you know how i get on
Michael
This thread is gold for all Omaha newbies. And I can personally vouch that Talon (Colin) is more than happy to impart his wisdom.
Ask, and ye shall receive!
pad
http://www.pokertube.com/my-pokerface?movie=14108&title=PLO_-__100___200_and__400&mlpage=0
raise sizes & pot bets
What is the standard pre flop raise size with prem hands, do we raise pot ?
are we potting rarther than 3/4 pot bets in NLHE
could you expand, can we ever price oppo's out in PLO or are we just extracting value with no improvers
If we have improvers to the nutz, we then bet less ?
Ok firstly preflop raising. There is no standard as such but the need to understand the purpose of the bet. Preflop you are looking to get rid of the any4 brigade and hopefully take position for post flop play. Also the raise is to make the pot more desirable for winning but without committing yourself to the pot. Unless we are dealing with latter stage tourny play or shortstack play then we do not want to commit too large a proportion of our stack before seeing a flop.
As to bet sizing this is an issue that raises debate. When playing down the streets if you have a massive hand or a massive draw then you want to be betting out to build up the pot and preferably take it to HU play(which is easier to control and know your situation). So 3 or 4 way i would definately be potting to het rid of the weaker draws and marginal holdings. I tend to always favour pot on the flop(especially if in position) because you can then use the turn to either crank it up again or slow down for pot control.
As to pricing out your opponents. Some people will call very light and therefore can never be priced out but to talk about the 2 major scenarios on the flop then the answer is always no.
As an example top set vs NFD or topset vs OESD. In both of these situations your opponent would be around the 2 to 1 mark to win the pot on the flop. The maximum you can bet is pot which automatically gives odds of 2 to 1 to any potential callers.
As far as improvers are concerned what we are truely looking for on any given flop is the nuts plus extensions plus redraws.An example of this would be As Qs Jd Th with the flop coming down 789 with 2 spades. Here we have the nut straight with extensions to a bigger straight and redraws to the nut flush.
Bet sizing is always a difficult subject in PLO due to the fact that as compared to NLHE where you can get paid on all streets in PLO you tend to only get paid on the flop and turn and when their draws miss on the river they fold to your value bet. The best advice i can give is always bet big on made hand or big draw to extract as much value as you can and remember that if you take the pot down at this point then outdraws cant happen.
Preflop:like the raise enough to build the pot up but not enough to commit yoursefl.
Flop. This flop is not as good for you as you would think. When you consider hands with 789x are well within the preflop calling range then you are only looking at the 2 for the nuts so effectively you have a gutshot.
Turn: Again this card is not as good as you would think. You can almost forget about the flush or straight draw here because a lot of the cards that make the draw complete also fill up houses. So really here you are playing to hit your 2 outer with your aces.
It is ok in NLHE to chase these big flush and straight draws on a paired board but in omaha it is just an easy way to throw money away.
For me the flop would be either a chack or smaller bet. The turn would be check/call a small bet or check /fold. Chasing draws is the right thing to do but you really need to keep it closer to the nuts. Also use your position as a weapon. In this hand your opponent was OOP against you which gave you the chance to use pot control on the turn.
Just a few thoughts there, hope some of it is of some use.