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Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.

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  • TalonTalon Member Posts: 1,621
    edited October 2010
      First of all i like your raise on the flop with top 2. It is quite strong but also very vulnerable.I have no idea why the villain lead out with absolutely nothing and then called your raise with only a couple of bad back door draws and a gutshot.

      On the turn i hate your raise because the card has done nothing for your hand except make it weaker and has also brought in a lot of other draws with there being another straight draw and now a flush draw.Bearing in mind that your opponent bet out on the flop and called your raise and then lead out on the turn as well then you should give him range of at least one of the straight draws and possibly the flush as well.

     I think the best move there would be to flat call and reassess on the river when you can see what hands have been completed.Also you should not dicount the possibility of higher 2 pair or sets.

      To help your working out if he has 67TK with 2 hearts. Then he has 4 aces 4 nines 4 eights 4 threes and 3 more hearts giving him a total of 19 outs which would make it no better than a race at this point. Also you would be in a world of hurt against QJ or a set leaving yourself as a big underdog.

     I think the best course would therefore be to flat the turn and fold on the river which would still leave you a playable stack and not use so many chips just gambling unnecessarily.Just make a careful note of the villains name and remember that he chases any draw no matter how thin and is therefore with the exception of the occasional suck out a big time chip donator.
  • DarntootinDarntootin Member Posts: 1,521
    edited October 2010
    Thanks for your answer Talon.

    Is my raise on the turn really that bad though? My thinking was that if I just call the 100 the pot is 1700 and am I really going to fold for another 410 when he can shove on the flop (which i reckoned was a good possibility with only 4 bb's left) and so many scare cards can come that don't actually help him, eg. the heart.

    I was also pretty sure I was ahead on the turn (if he has Q J or JJ then it's a fair cop) as a set on the flop would have surely just re-raised my 500 bet as he only had 510 more and I am unlikely to be folding.

    Also, you say that the turn card has done nothing for my hand but it give me 3 definite/4 possibly cards for the nut straight. But sure, not a great improvement.

    Sorry but I can't be putting him (or anyone) on a max outs hand like 6 7 T K (2 hearts) as it's surely just too unlikely.

    Anyway, your answer has given me food for thought and is much appreciated.

    I've got another one for you as well...

    Omahartigan hi-lo mtt tonight, any getting away from this even if you put someone on having turned the straight?

    BANDICOOT Small blind  10.00 10.00 2070.00 Darntootin Big blind  20.00 30.00 2180.00   Your hole cards 10 5 A J       TommyD Raise  60.00 90.00 1760.00 Direwolf Call  60.00 150.00 2000.00 blankcheck Call  60.00 210.00 1780.00 BANDICOOT Call  50.00 260.00 2020.00 Darntootin Call  40.00 300.00 2140.00 Flop    A 7 J       BANDICOOT Check     Darntootin Bet  300.00 600.00 1840.00 TommyD Call  300.00 900.00 1460.00 Direwolf Call  300.00 1200.00 1700.00 blankcheck Call  300.00 1500.00 1480.00 BANDICOOT Fold     Turn    10       Darntootin Check     TommyD All-in  1460.00 2960.00 0.00 Direwolf Call  1460.00 4420.00 240.00 blankcheck Fold     Darntootin Call  1460.00 5880.00 380.00 River    2       Darntootin All-in  380.00 6260.00 0.00 Direwolf All-in  240.00 6500.00 0.00 Darntootin Unmatched bet  140.00 6360.00 140.00 Darntootin Show 10 5 A J    TommyD Show Q A 5 6    Direwolf Show J J 9 10    TommyD Win high Flush to the Ace 2940.00  2940.00 Darntootin Win high Flush to the Ace 480.00  620.00 TommyD Win low 7-low 2940.00  5880.00 PrevClose windowNext

  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited October 2010

    BLUFFING IN OMAHA.

    Aight, It's common knowledge that in NLHE Im an expert at building stacks in tournys then spewing/donking them off going for the win. My Skope graph is very up and down, due to long spells of not cashing, then a big win. My cash %age is low, but when I cash, it's normally a final table.

    Anyway, I did something similar in omaha last night, building a decent stack early, nothing special, but was in the top 10 of the field.

    Then I picked 2 spots to bluff, to try and dominate the table by being aggressive, and build a stack. Both times....I feel my opponents should have folded, so my timing was pretty good. See what you think...

    Hand 1

    I read his C bet as week. It was less than pot, and was like he felt obliged to c bet, as he was the pre flop raiser, but didn't really want to. Also, he can only really call me with a set of aces, or Ace x of hearts.

    Its a TOTAL bluff, I have no draws, so maybe I should ensure I have at least some kind of draw should I get looked up, but I went with my guy, and made the play. Unfortunately for me, the guy also went with his gut, and made a great call.
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    STUPENDOUS Small blind  50.00 50.00 1950.00
    DOHHHHHHH Big blind  100.00 150.00 3255.00
      Your hole cards
    • J
    • Q
    • Q
    • 10
         
    WAYNE_1665 Fold     
    DeucesLive Raise  300.00 450.00 2180.00
    lisavegas7 Call  300.00 750.00 3735.00
    TommyD Fold     
    STUPENDOUS Fold     
    DOHHHHHHH Call  200.00 950.00 3055.00
    Flop
       
    • 9
    • 3
    • A
         
    DOHHHHHHH Check     
    DeucesLive Bet  500.00 1450.00 1680.00
    lisavegas7 Fold     
    DOHHHHHHH Raise  2450.00 3900.00 605.00
    DeucesLive All-in  1680.00 5580.00 0.00
    DOHHHHHHH Unmatched bet  270.00 5310.00 875.00
    DOHHHHHHH Show
    • J
    • Q
    • Q
    • 10
       
    DeucesLive Show
    • J
    • 10
    • 8
    • A
       
    Turn
       
    • K
         
    River
       
    • 3
         
    DeucesLive Win Two Pairs, Aces and 3s 5310.00  5310.0
    Hand 2

    Here I'm playing a 20xbb stack, and gets folded round to me in the small blind. A great spot to steal in Holdem, and I have a good hand, a double suited 4  card straight. So raisy daisy. I probably should have realised the guys stack size.....and maybe raised smaller??? Do I always have to open for the full pot?

    The flop I would say is pretty dry, only 1 draw out there is 89, but on a paired board, facing a strong raise pre and a c bet, I wouldn't expect 8-9 to continue here unless he has an over-pair or something.

    I decide to c bet it, and if he has a 7, fair play.

    Anyway, again, the guy calls me, and his 9 high holds. Lol.

    I told you in chat, Im ok in the early levels when seeing/playing flops, but I suck when the blinds get bigger, aggression just gets you no-where.

    Any advice?



    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceDOHHHHHHH Small blind  150.00 150.00 3150.00 toro666 Big blind  300.00 450.00 11812.50   Your hole cards 2 4 5 6       MereNovice Fold     GREGHOGG Fold     lee100 Fold     DOHHHHHHH Raise  750.00 1200.00 2400.00 toro666 Call  600.00 1800.00 11212.50 Flop    10 7 7       DOHHHHHHH Bet  1800.00 3600.00 600.00 toro666 Raise  3600.00 7200.00 7612.50 DOHHHHHHH All-in  600.00 7800.00 0.00 toro666 Unmatched bet  1200.00 6600.00 8812.50 DOHHHHHHH Show 2 4 5 6    toro666 Show 8 9 4 6    Turn    10       River    A       toro666 Win Pair of 10s 6600.00  15412.50
  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited October 2010
    hand 2 he has open ended straight draw on flop, a pair and thats about it not really the best play by villain but surely there is no point bluffing in omaha unless your 90% + sure of your opponents range in this spot? so often people with have 7 or a pair in their own hand? although i think on this occasion more often then not it would have got a fold just my point being in omaha you have to have your opponent on a very clear range to be able to bluff hands well

    thats my two pennies talon the master will come say something different i assume lol
  • TalonTalon Member Posts: 1,621
    edited October 2010
    Darntootin. The simple answer is yes you can get away from it.

     Firstly top 2 pair is highly unlikely to be ahead on that board. So you have 6 outs to the house and 7 to the nut flush.We should really not count the heart draw as it is onlt to the third nuts which is too weak to be risking our stack with. So 13 potentially good outs making you about 3 to 1 dog in the hand. The main problem is that about 5 or six of your flushing outs are only to a split pot because of the Lo pot draws available. Which now take you to 6 to 1 to win and 6 to 1 to split the pot. In standard PLO it would be a good call but in PLO8 it is a bad call for me because of the weakness of your Lo hand. So in conclusion PLO snap call and in PLO8 snap fold.
  • TalonTalon Member Posts: 1,621
    edited October 2010
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    OnlyOneCT Small blind   30.00 30.00 1975.00
    Any2Suited Big blind   60.00 90.00 2735.00
      Your hole cards
    • 8
    • 5
    • 2
    • 9
         
    its-a-fix Call   60.00 150.00 1160.00
    Talon Call   60.00 210.00 1350.00
    Machka Fold        
    tikay1 Fold        
    OnlyOneCT Call   30.00 240.00 1945.00
    Any2Suited Check        
    Flop
       
    • A
    • 4
    • 3
         
    OnlyOneCT Check        
    Any2Suited Check        
    its-a-fix Check        
    Talon Bet   240.00 480.00 1110.00
    OnlyOneCT Fold        
    Any2Suited Fold        
    its-a-fix Call   240.00 720.00 920.00
    Turn
       
    • Q
         
    its-a-fix Check        
    Talon Bet   720.00 1440.00 390.00
    its-a-fix Call   720.00 2160.00 200.00
    River
       
    • 6
         
    its-a-fix Check        
    Talon All-in   390.00 2550.00 0.00
    its-a-fix All-in   200.00 2750.00 0.00
    Talon Unmatched bet   190.00 2560.00 190.00
    its-a-fix Show
    • 5
    • 6
    • K
    • 5
         
    Talon Show
    • 8
    • 5
    • 2
    • 9
         
    its-a-fix Win high Flush to the King 1280.00   1280.00
    Talon Win low 5-low 1280.00   1470.00
  • TalonTalon Member Posts: 1,621
    edited October 2010
    The above hand is the perfect example of how making good PLO decisions are not good in PLO8.In standard PLO my opponent was making the correct calls on all streets.But because this was PLO what he was doing in this case was calling big bets hoping to get lucky to split the pot.
  • TalonTalon Member Posts: 1,621
    edited October 2010
      JJ bluffing in omaha is a very difficult art to master and it should not be approached in the same way as in NLHE.  In hand one your opponent has already put in a third of his stack at the point that you bluff so would almost feel pot committed if they have any part of that flop.In hand 2 you decided to bluff preflop which is never a good idea especially against a big stack and although he made the move on the flop with a weak hand and draw it was only for a smallish percentage of his stack.

     To successfully bluff in omaha firstly you need a board that offers you the opportunity to bluff and opponents(s) that are capable of laying down reasonable hands and draws.The sort of board that i mean is.Imagine you are 6 handed and the flop comes down 3 of the same suit and it is checked round to you on the button.This is a perfect bluffing opportunity provided you can follow the story through if you are called.In NLHE however this bet would be seen purely as a steal or a draw

      If you restrict your bluffing to semi bluffs only to start with then at least you give yourself the chance of winning the hand by merit as well as bet strength.So in a nutshell bluffing needs to be planned after the flop not before and you need to target the correct players when doing it.
  • DarntootinDarntootin Member Posts: 1,521
    edited October 2010
    In Response to Re: Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.:
    Darntootin. The simple answer is yes you can get away from it.  Firstly top 2 pair is highly unlikely to be ahead on that board. So you have 6 outs to the house and 7 to the nut flush.We should really not count the heart draw as it is onlt to the third nuts which is too weak to be risking our stack with. So 13 potentially good outs making you about 3 to 1 dog in the hand. The main problem is that about 5 or six of your flushing outs are only to a split pot because of the Lo pot draws available. Which now take you to 6 to 1 to win and 6 to 1 to split the pot. In standard PLO it would be a good call but in PLO8 it is a bad call for me because of the weakness of your Lo hand. So in conclusion PLO snap call and in PLO8 snap fold.
    Posted by Talon
    You read my mind as I had also meant to ask what the decision should be if had been a PLO game.

    Not really got the hang of PLO8 but thought I would gamble on this as I would have had a massive chip lead early doors and be in a great position.

    Although I couldn't count on the heart draw I reckoned there was still a decent chance of it being good and even if I only won the hi pot we would still chop another players stack.
  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited December 2010
    Enjoyed watching this PLO vid - prob for advanced players, but I found it really interesting. 


    Easy to find links to part 2 just look.
  • IRISHROVERIRISHROVER Member Posts: 7,606
    edited January 2011


     Got one for you talon ,
    you have a better omaha head then moi ,
     ty in advance denis .



     To: IRISHROVER
     
    if you have any tips on omaha starting hands for both types it would be appreciated m8 am thinking of playing some omaha cash

    Cheers    Michael

  • TalonTalon Member Posts: 1,621
    edited January 2011
    Interesting question.So lets go.


      PLO: The main criteria for your starting hand should be based upon quantity rather than quality.That is the number of nut drawing 2 card hands you have out of the possible 6 hands.Hands like AAxx rainbow are very poor hands with only 1 nut drawing hand so should be played with extreme caution.Examples of great starting hands are AAKQ ds  and 89TJ ds.The general rule that should be remembered is, the more nut drawing hands you have the greater chance you have of hitting the board and therefore winning the hand.


      PLO8:  The thing to remember straight away with PLO8 is the possibility of the 2 pots within the hand which changes the dynamic of the hand totally. A good starting hand in PLO still plays well in PLO8 but careful monitoring of the board is needed to avoid choppin up large pots. When looking at starting hands it is harder to narrow down what plays well because of the lack of knowledge preflop as to whether the Lo pot will arrive. An example of a hand that does play really well in PLO8 would be AA23 ds with its multiple drawing potential to both the Hi and Lo pots.


      A few betting rules to follow.
    1)  Unless very short stacked do not pot commit yourself preflop as no hand exists that is sure to be better than 2 to 1 favourite at this stage and the flop can destroy any hand.
    2) When you flop a monster like nut flush,nut straight or top set you should always bet big.Also if you pick up a monster draw you should as well to make the pot worth winning if you hit.
    3) Do not chase straight or flush draws on a paired board
    4)NEVER EVER BLUFF.


     Hopefully this is of some use. If any help is needed with specific hands then please get back to me as it is much easier to discuss individual hands rather than generalities.
  • DTWBANDITDTWBANDIT Member Posts: 6,451
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.:
      Got one for you talon , you have a better omaha head then moi ,  ty in advance denis .   To: IRISHROVER   if you have any tips on omaha starting hands for both types it would be appreciated m8 am thinking of playing some omaha cash Cheers    Michael
    Posted by IRISHROVER

     Cheers Denis for posting my question
  • DTWBANDITDTWBANDIT Member Posts: 6,451
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.:
    Interesting question.So lets go.   PLO: The main criteria for your starting hand should be based upon quantity rather than quality.That is the number of nut drawing 2 card hands you have out of the possible 6 hands.Hands like AAxx rainbow are very poor hands with only 1 nut drawing hand so should be played with extreme caution.Examples of great starting hands are AAKQ ds  and 89TJ ds.The general rule that should be remembered is, the more nut drawing hands you have the greater chance you have of hitting the board and therefore winning the hand.   PLO8:  The thing to remember straight away with PLO8 is the possibility of the 2 pots within the hand which changes the dynamic of the hand totally. A good starting hand in PLO still plays well in PLO8 but careful monitoring of the board is needed to avoid choppin up large pots. When looking at starting hands it is harder to narrow down what plays well because of the lack of knowledge preflop as to whether the Lo pot will arrive. An example of a hand that does play really well in PLO8 would be AA23 ds with its multiple drawing potential to both the Hi and Lo pots.   A few betting rules to follow. 1)  Unless very short stacked do not pot commit yourself preflop as no hand exists that is sure to be better than 2 to 1 favourite at this stage and the flop can destroy any hand. 2) When you flop a monster like nut flush,nut straight or top set you should always bet big.Also if you pick up a monster draw you should as well to make the pot worth winning if you hit. 3) Do not chase straight or flush draws on a paired board 4)NEVER EVER BLUFF.  Hopefully this is of some use. If any help is needed with specific hands then please get back to me as it is much easier to discuss individual hands rather than generalities.
    Posted by Talon

      Thank You Talon for taking the time to answer my Question your advice is most helpful so i have copied & pasted to office so i will have it at hand while playing.

      What % of my BR would you advise me to start with on omaha cash?

      cheers
    Michael  aka dtwbandit
  • TalonTalon Member Posts: 1,621
    edited January 2011
      The issue of bankroll is a situation where omaha shows its colours against NLHE. The reason for this is omaha is a much higher variance game and you will find yourself very often getting yourself allin and being outdrawn or getting yourself pot committed with a major draw.If you are not prepared to get yourself into these situations then you will not succeed in omaha.With the game being pot limit it is very hard to bet people of draws even with the nuts so pots can get out of control very quickly.

      With this in mind in an ideal world you would not want to be sitting down with more than 2-5% of your bankroll at anyone time. This is not to protect against bad beats but more protection against outdraws and your draws missing.


      To give an example of the game which demonstrates the draw heavy nature of the game i watched a 3 handed table at 10p/20p in which all 3 players were allin on the flop of AJT with 2 diamonds. The hands were made straight vs flushdraw vs top set.No player did anything wrong but 2 players got stacked on this hand.
  • DTWBANDITDTWBANDIT Member Posts: 6,451
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.:
      The issue of bankroll is a situation where omaha shows its colours against NLHE. The reason for this is omaha is a much higher variance game and you will find yourself very often getting yourself allin and being outdrawn or getting yourself pot committed with a major draw.If you are not prepared to get yourself into these situations then you will not succeed in omaha.With the game being pot limit it is very hard to bet people of draws even with the nuts so pots can get out of control very quickly.   With this in mind in an ideal world you would not want to be sitting down with more than 2-5% of your bankroll at anyone time. This is not to protect against bad beats but more protection against outdraws and your draws missing.   To give an example of the game which demonstrates the draw heavy nature of the game i watched a 3 handed table at 10p/20p in which all 3 players were allin on the flop of AJT with 2 diamonds. The hands were made straight vs flushdraw vs top set.No player did anything wrong but 2 players got stacked on this hand.
    Posted by Talon

      Cheers Talon gonna start with PLO see how i get on   Michael
  • DTWBANDITDTWBANDIT Member Posts: 6,451
    edited January 2011


         Hi Talon here's a hand from PLO would appreciate your veiw on my betting on each stage & could i have got more value


       
    teleman8 Small blind   £0.02 £0.02 £0.71
    xxx
    Big blind   £0.04 £0.06 £3.13
      Your hole cards
    • 5
    • 8
    • J
    • 3
         
    rud1 Call   £0.04 £0.10 £5.12
    steve63 Call   £0.04 £0.14 £2.27
    DTWBANDIT Call   £0.04 £0.18 £5.65
    westyuk Call   £0.04 £0.22 £3.28
    teleman8 Call   £0.02 £0.24 £0.69
    xxx
    Check        
    Flop
       
    • 6
    • K
    • 2
         
    teleman8 Check        
    xxx
    Check        
    rud1 Check        
    steve63 Check        
    DTWBANDIT Check        
    westyuk Bet   £0.04 £0.28 £3.24
    teleman8 Fold        
    xxx
    Call   £0.04 £0.32 £3.09
    rud1 Fold        
    steve63 Fold        
    DTWBANDIT Call   £0.04 £0.36 £5.61
    Turn
       
    • 4
         
    xxx
    Check        
    DTWBANDIT Bet   £0.36 £0.72 £5.25
    westyuk Fold        
    xxx
    Call   £0.36 £1.08 £2.73
    River
       
    • 7
         
    xxx
    Check        
    DTWBANDIT Bet   £1.08 £2.16 £4.17
    xxx
    Fold        
    DTWBANDIT Muck        
    DTWBANDIT Win   £0.99   £5.16
    DTWBANDIT Return   £1.08 £0.09 £6.24
  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited January 2011
    i'd fold pre dtw

    fold flop too
  • TalonTalon Member Posts: 1,621
    edited January 2011
      Ok. First of all that is quite an ugly looking hand and i agree with young gun that you should be folding preflop.These sort of hands will only tend to get you into trouble so you will lose a lot of money just limping with this kind of hand and if you do hit you tend not to get paid.

     The flop is very dry and you have only got a gutshot which makes you 10 to 1 to win the hand and you are very nearly getting the odds and with implied odds i do not mind the flat call because if you do not hit on the turn then you can get away for minimal damage.The turn brings you the nuts with extensions and your pot bet out is perfect and you get the dream of a caller who is at a rough guess playing a weak 2 pair hand and hoping to house up.Now on the river you still have the nuts but with a different 2 cards to the ones you bet out on the turn with.I can not see the opponent calling a pot bet on the turn with the same gutshot and so therefore you know you are a mile ahead and i believe in this situation a weaker bet on the river to possibly represent a busted flush draw would stand a good chance of being called, maybe around the 30-40p mark.The opponent is weak as you know by his flat call on 2 streets so a pot bet here is too much for him to call with his holding.

     So all in all i hated your limp but after that fine until your value bet which was too strong to get paid.
  • DTWBANDITDTWBANDIT Member Posts: 6,451
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.:
      Ok. First of all that is quite an ugly looking hand and i agree with young gun that you should be folding preflop.These sort of hands will only tend to get you into trouble so you will lose a lot of money just limping with this kind of hand and if you do hit you tend not to get paid.  The flop is very dry and you have only got a gutshot which makes you 10 to 1 to win the hand and you are very nearly getting the odds and with implied odds i do not mind the flat call because if you do not hit on the turn then you can get away for minimal damage.The turn brings you the nuts with extensions and your pot bet out is perfect and you get the dream of a caller who is at a rough guess playing a weak 2 pair hand and hoping to house up.Now on the river you still have the nuts but with a different 2 cards to the ones you bet out on the turn with.I can not see the opponent calling a pot bet on the turn with the same gutshot and so therefore you know you are a mile ahead and i believe in this situation a weaker bet on the river to possibly represent a busted flush draw would stand a good chance of being called, maybe around the 30-40p mark.The opponent is weak as you know by his flat call on 2 streets so a pot bet here is too much for him to call with his holding.  So all in all i hated your limp but after that fine until your value bet which was too strong to get paid.
    Posted by Talon

       Cheers Talon thanks for the feedback m8
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